Mr. ASPINALL. The first question, Colonel, has to do with the burial of several bodies in a single grave. Do I understand you to say that there can be more than two burials in a single grave?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. And that has been the policy for how long?

Colonel MACFARLAND. This was implemented in the national cemetery systemwide in calendar year 1962, and is utilized in all cemeteries except Fort Snelling, in Minnesota.

Mr. ASPINALL. We have one former Member of Congress who lost out in his bid for reelection, and involved to a certain extent was a bill which he had introduced which provided for the burial of three bodies in a single grave.

Now, if he had been able to stay in a little longer, he could have had his request, and perhaps could have remained in Congress; is that right?

Colonel MACFARLAND. I am not familiar with the specific case there.

Mr. ASPINALL. A veteran had been married, and he lost his first wife before he died, and she was buried in the grave, and then when he passed away, his body was placed immediately above that of his first wife, and then when his second wife passed away she wanted to be buried immediately above in the same grave. The service at that time had a prohibition against this, and we could not even get legislation passed through the House to permit it. We couldn't even get it out of the committee because of the position taken by the Army. And now that would be permissible?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Yes, sir, it definitely would, if the second wife had not remarried, and thereby lost her eligibility.

Mr. ASPINALL. I guess she hadn't remarried, as I remember.
Mr. RIVERS. Will the gentleman yield?

At that point, were they burying children, though, with their parents?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. This posed a slightly different situation than they were accustomed to.

Colonel MACFARLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. Now, do I understand that in Arlington the first body in a grave space is placed at the 7-foot level, beneath the surface? Colonel MACFARLAND. That is correct, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. All burials at the present time?
Colonel MACFARLAND. No, sir, not all burials.
Mr. ASPINALL. Why not?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Conversations are had with the representatives of the deceased to determine if there are any actual dependents, minor children or wives, who might be involved later on. And if there was no wife, no minor children, we would excavate to a level in that case of 5 feet. But if there were an eligible wife and minor children, we would excavate to the 7-foot level.

Mr. ASPINALL. How many bodies are now buried in national cemeteries in the United States? If you have it, it could be tabulated-but I didn't see it your statement.

Colonel MACFARLAND. We have a total of approximately 1,014,464 interments that have been made in all national cemeteries.

Mr. ASPINALL. I understand the-is that the total?

Colonel MACFARLAND. That is the total interments of remains; yes, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. In your statement you state there are 40 million prospective interments if the program is continued.

Colonel MACFARLAND. I stated that there was an estimate of some 40 million persons in these United States who were eligible under current legislation for interment in a national cemetery.

Mr. ASPINALL. Under current legislation-you mean under the current statute?

Colonel MACFARLAND. The act of May 1948; yes, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. When was that estimate made?

Colonel MACFARLAND. In 1961, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. Thank you.

Mr. ASPINALL. Now, from past history, what percentage of the 40 million eligibles are likely to make the request?

Colonel MACFARLAND. The summary of material that was developed in 1961 by the Army would reflect approximately 12 percent of all eligible veterans would avail themselves of interment in a national

cemetery.

Mr. ASPINALL. It would be in the neighborhood of 5 million people, is that correct?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Well, this would be 12 percent of the veterans. When we speak of the 40 million figure, we are speaking of about 2212 million vets, and then about 1712 dependents, spouses, minor children.

Mr. ASPINALL. The figure I want is the total possible if we carry on the same kind of a program. And that would be 12 percent of 40 million, which would be about 4.8 million.

Colonel MACFARLAND. I don't have a figure estimating the number of spouses and minor children that we could expect from that base figure.

Mr. ASPINALL. In other words, what we are saying is that under existing laws, granting that we keep the provisions that we have in existence at the present time, we would have approximately three times the number of demands-burial possibilities that we have had since 1862 or 1863 when we began the operation; is that correct? Colonel MACFARLAND. That sounds correct, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. What bothers me, Colonel, from your statement is and I think you have stated them correctly-the changing policies of the Executive. In 1937, if I read your statement correctly, the position of the military was negative. In 1947, the position had changed to one of affirmative action-they were favoring it. In 1961, the levels of Government-you stated at all levels, so this must have have started with the military and worked right on up to the Bureau of the Budget-the President-are unfavorable toward enlarging this program, is that correct?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Well, sir, I would prefer to use the term "neutral" for the Army support or lack of support of the program during the 1930's.

Mr. ASPINALL. I stand corrected on that.

Colonel MACFARLAND. And after World War II, with the specter of some 361,000 fatalities, with some 281,000 remains to take care of, and not yet knowing just what the requirement would be in national cemeteries, the Army was understandably concerned about what they were going to do with all of these thousands of remains.

Mr. ASPINALL. You already knew what you were going to do with those who were unfortunate enough to lose their lives overseas.

Colonel MACFARLAND. No, sir; we did not know at that time. They had a choice

Mr. ASPINALL. In 1947?

Colonel MACFARLAND. There was a choice at that particular time for the next of kin.

Mr. ASPINALL. Then in 1961, because of the expense involved, as I understand it-is that correct?

Colonel MACFARLAND. No, sir, not in my opinion. The basic reason for the policy that exists today for the administration is the inequity of the system-and the expense factor certainly is a tremendous factor-but the basic factor is the inequity of the system as it has been in the past, and is at the present time.

Mr. ASPINALL. If it is now your policy to have multiple burial services in the same grave, it would be no more expensive, as far as land acquisition is concerned, to acquire the land and to get it into the right condition for the veterans and their dependents than for the veterans alone, is that right?

Colonel MACFARLAND. Well, no, sir. The administration, as I have alluded to, firmly believes that the burial benefits as now paid by the Veterans' Administration and under the social security system are far preferable to the furnishing of additional grave sites. And based upon my previous remark concerning the inequitability of the system itself, and these very basic factors that we made in our presentation, that 83 percent of those who are interred in a national cemetery are within this 50-mile radius of a cemetery-you ask yourself the question, naturally, then, just how many cemeteries would you have to have, how many would you have to enlarge? I would presume that to describe circles with a radius of 50 miles throughout the entire United States, where veterans live, and recognize the relationship between where they live and where they have chosen to be interredand we find that 83 percent are within a 50-mile radius-this would get into a great number of cemeteries, or burial grounds, or however we chose to describe them.

Mr. ASPINALL. If I might be a little bit critical and a little facetious at the same time, you are not suggesting, are you, that there should be an equity of opportunity in this particular matter, that all people be buried within a 50-mile distance from their home, wherever it may be? You don't have to answer that.

I just wondered why it is that in your operation you are so determined that you will have an equity, while in the Veterans' Adminis tration it seems to be that they are willing to move their hospitals so that it doesn't make any difference how many miles away they are.

Colonel MACFARLAND. I am afraid I can't comment on that, sir. Mr. SAYLOR. If the chairman will permit, this is the difference between the quick and the dead.

Mr. ASPINALL. Very well expressed.

It seems to me rather peculiar, though, that the dead should get first consideration in this respect.

One other question, and then I will give way.

Did I understand your statement to be that it would be a $2-billiona-year operation?