H. OF R.]

Francis Willis.

allow the proprietors of stages employed in conveying the mail, to carry passengers also, without being liable to molestation or impediment, on any of the post roads.

YEAS.-John Baptist Ashe, Abraham Baldwin, John Brown, William Findley, Thomas Fizsimons, William B. Giles, Samuel Griffin, Israel Jacobs, Richard Bland Lee, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, John Page, Josiah Parker, Joshua Against this motion it was urged, that the GeSeney, Samuel Sterrett, Jonathan Sturges, Thomas neral Government has no right to make any such Sumpter, George Thatcher, Abraham Venable, Antho-provision; and that even if it possessed the power, ny Wayne, Alexander White, Hugh Williamson, and such an exertion of it would be unjust, as it would under the laws of some States, (Maryland and interfere with the private rights of individuals, who, Virginia, for instance) enjoy the exclusive privilege of driving stages for the conveyance of travelers. Under the faith of the State laws, which were in existence before the establishment of the present Government, and have not yet been abrogated, these citizens vested a considerable property in this business, in hopes of reaping an adequate advantage from their undertaking. In many instances, it was made a condition in the contract, that they should make and repair the roads at their own private expense: the terms they complied with; but they would not have thus expended their money, or established the stages at all, if they had not obtained a monopoly to secure them in the exclusive enjoyment of the benefits; and to this mo

NAYS.-Fisher Ames, Robert Barnwell, Egbert Benson, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, Abraham Clark, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, William Barry Grove, Daniel Heister, Philip Key, Amasa Learned, Samuel Livermore, William Vans Murray, Nathaniel Niles, Cornelius C. Schoonmaker, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, William Smith, Peter Sylvester, Thomas Tredwell, Thomas Tudor Tucker, Jeremiah Wadsworth, and Artemas Ward.

And then the question being put for striking out the words "and in case there shall be no President of the Senate, then the Speaker of the House of Representatives for the time being," it was resolved in the affirmative-yeas 26, nays 25, as follows:

YEAS.-Messrs. John Baptist Ashe, Abraham Baldwin, John Brown, William Findley, Thomas Fitzsim-nopoly the public are indebted for the cheap and ons, Elbridge Gerry, William B. Giles, Samuel Griffin, Israel Jacobs, Richard Bland Lee, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, John Page, Josiah Parker, Joshua Seney, Samuel Sterrett, Jonathan Sturges, Thomas Sumpter, George Thatcher, Thomas Tredwell, Abraham Venable, Anthony Wayne, Alexander White, Hugh Williamson, and Francis

Willis.

NAYS.-Messrs. Fisher Ames, Robert Barnwell, Egbert Benson, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, Abraham Clark, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, William Barry Grove, Daniel Heister, Philip Key, Aaron Kitchell, Amasa Learned, Samuel Livermore, William Vans Murray, Nathaniel Niles, Cornelius C. Schoonmaker, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, William Smith, Peter Sylvester, Thomas Tudor Tucker, Jeremiah Wadsworth, and Artemas Ward.

A clause was added to the bill, on motion of Mr. TUCKER, providing for the choice of a President of the Senate pro tempore, in case of vacancies in the offices of President and Vice President.

The bill was then laid on the table, and the House adjourned.

TUESDAY, January 3.

THE POST OFFICE BILL.

easy conveyance which those stages at present afford for private passengers and the mail of the United States. Many of the original proprietors have made transfers of their right, for considerable sums of money; nor can the right, thus acquired by the present proprietors, be impaired, without an open violation of private contracts, and the invasion of a property lawfully purchased, and guaranteed by the State Legislatures, a property, which Congress have no right to take for the public use, without making an adequate compensation.

That clause of the Constitution which empowers the Federal Government to establish post offices and post roads, cannot, it was said, be understood to extend farther than the conveyance of intelligence, which is the proper object of the Post Office establishment. It gives no power to send men and baggage by post. The State Governments have always possessed the power of stopping or taxing passengers; that power they have never given up; and the proposition now made to wrest it from them, might be viewed as an attempt to lay the State Legislatures prostrate at the feet of the General Government, and will give a shock to every State in the Union.

If, by the construction of that clause of the Constitution, which authorizes Congress to make all Mr. SMITH, of New Hampshire, from the com- laws necessary for carrying into execution the mittee to whom were re-committed the seven- several powers vested in them, they should estateenth and eighteenth sections of the bill for establish the proposed regulations for the conveyance blishing the Post Office and Post Roads within the United States, made a report: Whereupon, the amendments reported by the said committee, in lieu of the seventeenth and eighteenth sections, were, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House.

Several other amendments being proposed to the bill

A motion was made by Mr. FITZSIMONS to

of the mail, they may proceed farther, and so regulate the post roads, as to prevent passengers from traveling on them; they may say what weights shall be carried on those roads, and at what seasons of the year; they may remove every thing that stands in their way-they may level buildings to the ground, under pretence of making more convenient roads; they may abolish tolls and turnpikes; they may, where an established

JANUARY, 1792.]

Post Office Bill,

[H. OF R.

der consideration. If not, the Postmaster General may be obliged to adopt the less convenient mode of having the mail carried every where on horse-back; even in this case, the State Legislatures may subject the post-horses to a tax, upon the same principle as the post-carriages.

ferry has been kept for a hundred years past in the most convenient place for crossing a river, give the post-rider authority to set up a new one beside it, and ruin the old establishment; they may say, that the person who carries the mail shall participate in every privilege that is now exclusively enjoyed by any man or body of men, and allege, as a rea- The question, it was said, could not involve any son for these encroachments, that they are only controversy between the United States and the necessary encouragements to carry the mail of the individual States. It was merely a judicial quesUnited States. In short, the ingenuity of man can tion, and determinable in a Court of Law, whether not devise any new proposition so strange and in- a State has a right to grant and support such a consistent, as not to be reducible within the pale of monopoly. Other monopolies had existed before the Constitution, by such a mode of construction. the establishment of the General Government, If this were once admitted, the Constitution would but had been since done away; the duty of tonbe an useless and dead letter; and it would be tonage, for instance, which had been granted in some no purpose, that the States, in Convention assem- States for the improvement of navigation. bled, had framed that instrument to guide the steps of Congress: as well might they at once have said, "There shall be a Congress, who shall have full power and authority to make all laws, which to their wisdom shall seem meet and proper."

As to the infringement of contracts made before the adoption of the Constitution, if the different Conventions had agreed upon that ground, the Constitution itself would never have been adopted, as it abrogated not only several private contracts, but even certain parts of the State Constitutions themselves. But the evil, in the present case, would be great indeed, if the States were allowed a power of repealing or annulling the principles of the Constitution, under cover of acts that existed previous to its formation.

But the States will never submit to this new regulation; nor will the individuals concerned tamely suffer an invasion of those rights, which they enjoy under the State laws. A contest will undoubtedly ensue; and the present proprietors of the stages will not fail to stop any new stage-wagons that carry passengers along their roads, whether they carry the mail or not. It would be unwise in Congress to enter into a contest where the advantage is but trifling, and the risk much greater perhaps than they are aware of. It is easy to blow a small spark into an extensive flame; and pru-prove a mere nullity, unless accompanied with a dence ought to caution them against raising a ferment, which may be productive of the most serious consequences.

The laws of the United States must be general: they must operate equally throughout the Union, nor be clogged with any incumbrances or restrictions in any one State more than another. The power of barely establishing post roads would

power of making them useful. The stages are a public convenience to the citizens of the United States traveling along those roads; and if the In favor of the motion it was urged that the State Legislatures exercise the power of stopping Constitution, in authorizing Congress to establish and taxing those carriages at their pleasure, the post offices and post roads, and to make all laws utility of this mode of conveyance, together with necessary for carrying into execution the several that of the roads themselves, will be in a great powers intrusted to them, has conferred on them measure destroyed. If, to prevent this evil, and ample powers respecting the point in question. If the better to accommodate the citizens of the Unithe post roads belong to the United States, then ted States, and to facilitate the conveyance of the every citizen of the United States has as good a public mail, Congress found it necessary to estaright to use them, under the regulations of Con-blish turnpike-roads from one end of the Continent gress, as the citizens of any particular State, through which they happen to run. If they belong to the individual States, and are subject to their regulation, the same authority that limits the use of them to particular wagons, may also say that those wagons shall carry nothing else but passengers, and thus even the mail itself may be prevented from passing.

to the other, the Constitution gave them full power to make such regulations and it hoped they would soon adopt the measure.

Without coming to a decision, the House adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, January 4.

It was thought hard that a citizen of the United Mr. LAURANCE, from the committee to whom States should be prevented from traveling through was referred the memorial of Brigadier General an individual State in a stage-wagon, unless the Joseph Harmer, in behalf of the commissioned wagon belonged to that State. If a right exists in officers of the army, made a report; which was the State Legislature to impose a tax in this in-read, and ordered to lie on the table. stance, they may farm it out at a high rate, and make it amount to what they please: they may proceed further, and oblige every citizen of the United States who travels within their boundaries, to purchase a certificate to entitle him to pass. If the House meant to establish the post office at all, and to have the roads free, it was thought necessary to make such a provision as the one un

A memorial of the Legislature of the State of Rhode Island was presented to the House and read, representing the injuries they are subject to from the operation of an act of Congress relative to the assumption of the State debts, and praying a farther assumption of the debt of that State. Referred to the Secretary of the Treasury. The Speaker laid before the House a Letter

from the Secretary of War, accompanying his report on the memorial of Benjamin Lincoln, in behalf of himself, Cyrus Griffin, and David Humphreys, late Commissioners on the part of the United States for treating of peace with the Southern tribes of Indians. Whereupon,

Ordered, That the said memorial and report be referred to Mr. AMES, Mr. BOUDINOT, and Mr. STEELE; that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

THURSDAY, January 5.

A bill granting further compensation to certain receivers of Continental taxes was read the second time, and ordered to be committed.

[JANUARY, 1792.

United States entirely in the power of these persons. He hoped that the House would not hesitate to adopt the proposition.

Mr. SENEY replied to Mr. LIVERMORE, in a few remarks, in which he justified the States of Maryland and Virginia for granting the monopolies in question.

Mr. GERRY said he was in favor of the proposition. He asserted that the power to establish post roads was coeval with that of establishing post offices; if the former power is not in ConMr. LIVERMORE, from the committee to whom gress, they have already proceeded too far in exwas referred the petition of George Webb, together ercising the latter power. It has been said, that with the report of the Secretary of the Treasury the States had a right to grant these monopoliesthereon, presented a bill granting farther compen-to this he conceded that they had, previous to the sation to certain receivers of Continental taxes; adoption of the Constitution; but, in consequence which was received, and read the first time. of that event, all such laws are null and void of course. It is become necessary for Congress to carry their power in this respect into execution; for he had been informed, from good authority, that the Postmaster General could not contract with these persons upon the same terms that he could with others. He instanced other inconveniences and disadvantages resulting from this situation of things, especially by an unnecessary detention of the mail for two days every week. Congress ought to define and declare their powers, that those States which have passed laws incompatible therewith may repeal them. With respect to the power of establishing post offices, none of the States claim a participation of that power; and as to the establishing post roads, if the States possess any power in that case, Congress certainly possesses concurrent power; and therefore this Government may certainly make the necessary regulations, where the States have either made improper regulations, or no regulations at all. He conceived that justice to individuals, and to the United States, rendered it absolutely necessary for Congress to exercise the power.

THE POST OFFICE BILL.

The House resumed the consideration of the bill, which lay on the table, for establishing the Post Office and Post Roads within the United States. Whereupon,

A motion was made and seconded further to amend the said bill, by inserting, after the section, the following clause:

"And be it further enacted, That it shall be lawful for the carriages, by which the mail shall be conveyed, to receive passengers to or from any place or places, and through any State or States, upon all roads declared to be post roads, by the laws of the United States."

Mr. CLARK objected to the proposition. He thought it would give rise to a contest between the State and General Governments, which he conceived was unnecessary, and had better be avoided.

Mr. SENEY also objected to it. Before such a clause was agreed to, it certainly was incumbent on the gentlemen in favor of it to show that the regulations in the several States which would be affected by it, had or would obstruct the transportation of the mail. Except this was made to appear, it ought to be well considered how far the interference with those privileges would tend to disturb the tranquility of the Government.

Mr. NILES inquired, what is the import of the present question? Is it not, sir, whether you may carry your mail through any of the States, on foot, on horseback, or in a stage coach? It is not contended that any law of any State can, constitutionally, prevent this. The States, by adopting the Constitution, have ceded their right to you, and of course divested themselves of all right to prevent you from exercising it. But, sir, the question is simply, whether Congress have a right to authorize the carrier of the mail to carry passenMr. LIVERMORE said he had no doubts on this gers, on hire, through those States where an exsubject. The right of Congress to send the mail clusive right of carrying passengers for hire has in that way which will be most for the public been granted by the State Government, and still advantage, cannot be controverted. Let gentle-exists. You are empowered by the Constitution men consider what would be the consequence, if similar monopolies existed in all the other States; it would entirely render nugatory the power of Congress to establish post offices and post roads. The consequences of this are easily to be conceived. It is said, that the persons vested with these exclusive privileges have contracted on as easy terms as the Postmaster General could have contracted with any other persons; but it does not follow that they will not extort in future-it certainly destroys all competition, and leaves the

to establish post offices and post roads, and to do whatever may be necessary and proper to carry that power into effect. Now, sir, is it necessary, in order to the transportation of your mail, that you should erect stage-coaches for the purpose of transporting passengers? What has your mail to do with passengers transported for hire? Why, sir, nothing more than this-by granting to the carrier of your mail a right to carry passengers for hire, the carriage of the mail may be a little less expensive. Does this consideration render it ne

JANUARY, 1792.]

Post Office Bill.

[H. OF R.

cessary and proper for you to violate the laws of getting into a maze-the bill has long been under

consideration, and we seem to make no progress. I could wish that the whole bill was buried, and that we might hear no more of post offices and post roads.

Mr. VENABLE Controverted the constitutionality of an interference on the part of Congress in respect to these monopolies. He observed, that the Constitution was totally silent on the subject of passengers; it simply relates to the transportation of letters. And he conceived that the operation of the proposition would be to create monopolies on the part of the United States.

[It was here contended that the proviso was not in order. The Speaker said it was not in order. An appeal was then made to the House, which voted that the proviso was in order, and it was then discussed.]

the States? If not, you will, by so doing, violate their rights, and overleap the bounds of your own. This matter may occasion a legal adjudication, in order to which the Judiciary must determine, whether you have a constitutional right to establish this regulation, and this will depend on the question whether it be necessary and proper. A curious discretionary law question! Such a one as I presume never entered the thought of the States when they adopted the Constitution. But, sir, if the trifling pecuniary saving proposed by this regulation, entitles it to the character of a necessary one, or, in the sense of the Constitution, a proper one, and so a constitutional one, what may not Congress do under the idea of propriety? It may be proper, for the sake of a more advantageous contract for carrying the mail, to authorize the carrier to erect ferry-boats, for the transporta- Mr. WADSWORTH said he was opposed to both tion both of the mail and of passengers-or to the clause and the proviso; he conceived there grant the right of driving herds of cattle over toll was no occasion for either. The State of Conbridges and turnpike roads, toll free, in violation necticut has granted exclusive privileges to run both of legal and prescriptive rights-to erect post-stages in that State, but has reserved to itself the houses under peculiar regulations, and with ex-power to annihilate those contracts at pleasure; clusive right. What, sir, may not be construed as and, whenever the General Government shall proper to be done by Congress? Under this idea, make provision for transporting the mail on those the whole powers vested in Congress by the Con- roads, those exclusive privileges will cease; and stitution will be found in the magic word proper; he did not know but that this was the case in and the States might have spared, as nugatory, all other States. their deliberations on the Constitution, and have constituted a Congress, with general authority to legislate on every subject, and in any manner it might think proper. What rights, then, remain to the States? None, sir, but the empty denomination of Republican Governments. I consider the proposition as an attack upon the rights of the States, and shall therefore give my vote against it. Mr. BARNWELL said he had no doubt of the constitutionality of the proposition; but he was of opinion that the present was not the most eligible time to exercise the power. Still he was of opinion that Congress ought now to declare that it would exercise it at the expiration of the contracts which at present exist between particular States and individuals, and he moved a proviso to that effect, as follows:

"Provided, That whenever any exclusive privilege of conveying passengers for hire in stage carriages, on any of the roads established by this law, hath been heretofore granted by any of the States for a term of years, such exclusive privilege shall continue and be of full force and effect, agreeable to the conditions thereof, until such term shall expire."

Mr. LIVERMORE said the proviso was the most extraordinary one he had ever heard in his life we in the first place, in effect, abrogate certain laws of particular States, and then by a proviso confirm those very laws.

Mr. LAURANCE contended that, however extraordinary the proviso may appear, it was strictly proper. Contracts are not to be violated-once formed, they are sacred. The States had a right to form those contracts, and to grant those privileges, and therefore the persons enjoying them cannot be deprived of them; and though the General Government has undoubtedly a right to take the most eligible methods for the transportation of the mail, yet the rights of these people ought not to be violated.

Mr. GERRY opposed the proviso. It recognised the right of the respective States to pass such laws as the first part of the clause intends to abrogate, not only before, but subsequent to the adoption of the Constitution, which he conceived involved an absurdity. On the general subject, he said, that these monopolies were a tax, not only on the citizens of other States, but of every State in the Union. He conceived that no State possesses the

Mr. LAURANCE was in sentiment with Mr. BARN-power of taxing the people of the United States. WELL, and seconded his motion for adding a proviso, as above.

Mr. BENSON remarked, that the proviso was improper and unnecessary. Should any consequences result from agreeing to the first part of the clause, they will arise between the individual claiming the privileges and the State which granted them, and must be settled by a judicial decision.

Mr. CLARK objected to the proviso; it was legislating on a subject of which the House was entirely ignorant. We do not know how long those contracts are to exist; why should we, then, interfere in a business which we ought not to do any thing about. We may set aside the law, or Mr. STURGES said he should vote in favor of the State may abrogate it, but in either case the the proviso, though he conceived that Congress proprietors would be entitled to a full indemnifi- had a right to make such a law as would, in its cation. For his part, he thought the House was operation, entirely supercede these contracts.

H. OF R.]

Post Office Bill-John Churchman.

Mr. FINDLEY was opposed to the proviso, because it was legislating on improper principles, or rather no principles whatever; for we know nothing about those contracts.

On the question being put, to agree to the said proviso, by way of amendment to the said clause, it passed in the negative-Yeas 14, Nays 43, as follows:

YEAS.-Abraham Baldwin, Robert Barnwell, Samuel Griffin, Daniel Huger, John Laurance, James Madison, William Vans Murray, Joshua Seney, William Smith, Samuel Sterrett, Jonathan Sturges, Thomas Sumpter, George Thatcher, and John Vining.

NAYS.-Fisher Ames, John Baptist Ashe, Egbert Benson, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, John Brown, Abraham Clark, William Findley, Thomas Fitzsimons, Elbridge Gerry, William B. Giles, Nicholas Gilman, James Gordon, Andrew Gregg, William Barry Grove, Daniel Heister, Israel Jacobs, Philip Key, Aaron Kitchell, John W. Kittera, Amasa Learned, Richard Bland Lee, Samuel Livermore, Nathaniel Macon, Andrew Moore, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, Nathaniel Niles, John Page, Josiah Parker, Cornelius C. Schoonmaker, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, John Steele, Peter Sylvester, Thomas Tredwell, Abraham Venable, Jeremiah Wadsworth, Artemas Ward, Anthony Wayne, Alexander White, Hugh Williamson, and Francis Willis.

And then the question being put to agree to the said amendment first proposed, it passed in the negative-Yeas 25, Nays 33, as follows:

[JANUARY, 1792.

FRIDAY, January 6.

JOHN CHURCHMAN.

A motion being made that the petition of John Churchman, which lay on the table, be referred to a select committee

Mr. WILLIAMSON objected to the reference. He remarked generally that the subject had already been before Congress, and had consumed much time. In the Senate, he understood, it had not received much attention. With respect to the prosperous state of the finances, on which the petitioner appear to found his hopes, he would not pretend to determine the state of the Treasury; but if it was full and flowing, he conceived there were other expeditions which would call for all the money we had to spare.

Mr. PAGE moved that the memorial should be referred to a select committee without opposition, as the ingenuity of the memorialist, and the importance of the objects he had in view, entitle him to the attention of the House. He had presented the memorial to the House last week, at the desire of the memorialist, and had moved that it should lie on the table for the consideration of members. That one object of the memorialist could not so well be stated to the House as to a committee, where numbers of his papers and calculations might be examined; that if he should attempt to do Mr. Churchman justice in the House, he might be charged with affectation, or he might not be heard, or if heard, he might not be sufficiently understood. He therefore hoped that the memorial might be referred to a select committee. In reply to Mr. WILLIAMSON, he was sorry to find that a gentleman, whose name stood on the list of philosophers, instead of aiding him in countenancing a philosophical inquiry, should oppose even his motion that the House would refer it to the considerNAYS.-John Baptist Ashe, Abraham Baldwin, Ro- ation of a select committee. He had not presumbert Barnwell, Elias Boudinot, John Brown, Abraham ed to say that there was money in the Treasury Clark, William B. Giles, Samuel Griffin, William Barry to be spared for such purposes, or that even if we Grove, Daniel Heister, Israel Jacobs, Philip Key, Aaron had money, that we had a right to give it to Mr. Kitchell, Richard Bland Lee, James Madison, Andrew Churchman, if he should prove the truth of his Moore, William Vans Murray, Nathaniel Niles, John theory; nor had he said that Mr. Churchman Page, Josiah Parker, Cornelius C. Schoonmaker, Joshua would find the magnetic pole. He had only affirmSeney, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, Samuel Sterrett, ed that Mr. Churchman's ingenuity, which was Thomas Sumpter, Thomas Tredwell, Thomas Tudor acknowledged by many competent judges, and the Tucker, Abraham Venable, Anthony Wayne, Alex-importance of the objects he had in view, one of ander White, Hugh Williamson, and Francis Willis.

YEAS.-Fisher Ames, Egbert Benson, Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, William Findley, Thomas Fitzsimons, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, James Gordon, Andrew Gregg, Daniel Huger, John W. Kittera, John Laurance, Amasa Learned, Samuel Livermore, Nathaniel Macon, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, William Smith, John Steele, Jonathan Sturges, Peter Sylvester, George Thatcher, John Vining, Jeremiah Wadsworth, and Artemas Ward.

And then the said bill being further amended, it was, together with the amendments thereto, ordered to be engrossed, and read the third time on Monday next.

which the member himself confessed deserved attention, and the other was confessed by several philosophers and learned societies in Europe, deserved the attention of the House. Sir, added Mr. P., I affirm, since I am thus compelled to support Mr. AMES, from the committee to whom was my motion, that Mr. Churchman's theory, whereferred he memorial of Benjamin Lincoln, in ther he shall be able to find by his proposed voybehalf of himself, Cyrus Griffin, and David Hum-age the magnetic pole or not, is a proof of his inphreys, late Commissioners on the part of the United States for treating of peace with the Southern tribes of Indians, made a report; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

A petition of Daniel Freer was presented to the House and read, praying the renewal of certain loan office certificates, which were destroyed by fire. Referred to the Secretary of the Treasury, to examine the same, and report thereon to the House.

genuity, and is preferable to that of the great Halley. The latter supposed four magnetic poles, and that they resided within the bowels of the earth; the former supposes but two, and that one of them is in the neighborhood of one of the United States, and within the reach of the fishing voyages of another. Since Dr. Halley's theory has been exploded which did not long account for the variation of variation, as it is called, and which he ex