273 DECEMBER, 1791.] Apportionment Bill. their neighbors, were disposed blindly to surrender all the important interests of their immediate constituents to the arbitration of those, the whole course of whose conduct had demonstrated that they thought those interests adverse to their own. He concluded, by warning those who had hitherto composed a majority on this subject, to reflect on the danger that would result from a pertinacious adherence to a measure so productive of the sources of jealousy; and he called on their generosity, magnanimity, and justice, to respect the claims of the minority to an equal weight in the Government, on the principles of the Constitu tion. Mr. GERRY made some reply to his colleague, Mr. SEDGWICK, respecting locality of interests, and declared that he never would agree to a reduction of the people's representation. Mr. LAURANCE said, he had always advocated a large representation, without any reference to the part of the Union from which the members are to come. Thirty thousand will give the largest number that we can get; he could have wished it had been been larger, but as it could not, he should vote against thirty-three thousand, which would diminish the number; and this was the principle he acted upon. If an equality is the object, is there not a number which will produce a still greater equality than that proposed by the Senate? If there is, there is no principle in the ratio of thirty-three thousand, for it ought to be carried to the full extent to make it perfectly equal. He was sorry that the discussion of the question had excited those disagreeable reflections which had been made, and that the discussion of general principles was dwindled into a debate on fractions, and on the interests of the Northern and Southern parts of the Union. He was persuaded this would not be the proper mode of obtaining the end, which ought to be in view, but would only tend to disturb the tranquility and harmony that ought to exist in investigating and determining this subject. [H. of R. The question being now put, that the House do recede from their disagreement to the said amendment, it passed in the negative-yeas 27, nays 33, as follows: YEAS.-Messrs. Fisher Ames, Egbert Benson, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benj. Bourne, Abraham Clark, Jonathan Dayton, Thomas Fitzsimons, Nicho-las Gilman, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, Andrew Gregg, Thomas Hartley, James Hillhouse, Israel Jacobs, John W. Kittera, Amasa Learned, Samuel Livermore, Nathaniel Niles, Theodore Sedgwick, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, Jonathan Sturges, Peter Sylvester, George Thatcher, Jeremiah Wadsworth, and Artemas Ward. NAYS.-Messrs. John Baptist Ashe, Abraham Baldwin, Robert Barnwell, John Brown, William Findley, Elbridge Gerry, William B. Giles, Samuel Griffin, William Barry Grove, Daniel Huger, Philip Key, John Laurance, Richard Bland Lee, Nath'l Macon, James MadiWilliam Vans Murray, John Page, Josiah Parker, Corson, Andrew Moore, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, nelius C. Schoonmaker, Joshua Seney, William Smith, John Steele, Samuel Sterrett, Thomas Sumpter, Thomas redwell, Thomas Tudor Tucker, Abraham Venable, son, and Francis Willis. Anthony Wayne, Alexander White, Hugh William A motion was then made, and the question being put, that the House do adhere to their disagreement to the said amendment, it was resolved in the affirmative-yeas 32, nays 27, as follows: YEAS.-Messrs. John Baptist Ashe, Abraham Baldwin, Robert Barnwell, John Brown, William Findley, Elbridge Gerry, William B. Giles, Samuel Griffin, William Barry Grove, Daniel Huger, Philip Key, John Laurance, Richard Bland Lee, Nath'l Macon, James Madison, Andrew Moore, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John Page, Josiah Parker, Cornelius C. Schoonmaker, Joshua Seney, William Smith, Samuel Sterrett, Thomas Sumpter, Thomas Tredwell, Wayne, Alex'r White, Hugh Williamson, and Francis Thomas Tudor Tucker, Abraham Venable, Anthony Willis. Gregg, Thomas Hartley, James Hillhouse, Israel Jacobs, Ordered, That the Clerk of this House do acquaint the Senate therewith. NAYS.-Messrs. Fisher Ames, Egbert Benson, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benj. Bourne, Abraham Mr. KITTERA having at first voted for thirty Clark, Jonathan Dayton, Thomas Fitzsimons, Nichothousand, he thought it proper to offer a few rea-las Gilman, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, Andrew sons for altering his opinion. He had voted for thirty thousand because it would give the largest representation, but finding its unjust and unequal operation, in respect to a majority of the States, he had determined to vote for the ratio of thirtythree thousand. He then noticed the remark of Mr. FINDLEY, that the injustice may be corrected by an enumeration at an earlier period than that proposed in the Constitution; he observed, that this was in effect saying, let us do injustice, and wait a number of years, and then justice shall be done. Why not do justice now, as far as is in our power? Mr. LAURANCE had said, why not adopt a ratio that would leave less fractions than thirtythree thousand? He said, this was in effect saying, that because we could not do complete justice, we would not do it to any degree whatever. The superior degree of equality which would result from the amendment of the Senate, had been so fully demonstrated, that he should now vote to recede from the disagreement of the House to it. A message from the Senate informed the House that they have passed the bill, entitled "An act making appropriations for the support of Government for the year 1792," with several amendments; to which they desire the concurrence of this House. TUESDAY, December 20. A Message was received from the President of the United States, with the copy of a Letter which he had received from the Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and of sundry documents which accompanied it, relative to a con tract for the purchase of a certain tract of land bounding on Lake Erie, together with a copy of a Report of the Secretary of State on the same subject. The said Message was read, and, together with the papers accompanying it, ordered to be referred to Mr. MADISON, Mr. BENSON, and Mr. SEDGWICK, with instruction to prepare and bring in a bill or bills to make provision for carrying into effect the contract therein specified. The House proceeded to consider the amendments proposed by the Senate to the bill entitled "An act making appropriations for the support of Government for the year 1792," and the same being read were agreed to. [DECEMBER, 1791. vented the circulation of intelligence; if the evil increased (and there was was no probability of its being diminished, except by the utter abolition of the privilege) it would eventually prove the ruin of the post office. The example of Britain showed to what an enormous height the abuse of such a privilege may be carried; and though similar abuses may not as yet have taken place here, yet it could hardly be doubted that many unnecessary letters were daily sent by the post, which never would have been written if subject to postage; those letters are not only unproductive, but an actual expense to the post office, as the postmaster receives a certain per centage on these, as well as upon other letters. The privilege of franking is moreover unequal in its operation; while some members use it only for the purpose of transmitting political information to their constituents, others, absent perhaps during the whole session, use it for very different purposes: to men in trade it was a considerable advantage, amounting, probably, in some instances, to a hundred dollars a year. It would be better to take away the privilege enThe House again resolved itself into a Commit-tirely, and reduce the general rates of postage onetee of the Whole House on the bill for establishing the Post Office and Post Roads within the United States. A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate do adhere to their amendment to a disagreement to which this House has adhered, to the bill entitled "An act Apportioning Representatives among the People of the several States, according to the First Enumeration." POST OFFICE BILL. half, or to allow the members, at the close of each session, to make a charge for all letters on public business, from their constituents, or to make them Mr. WADSWORTH moved an amendment, to an allowance in gross to defray the expense of withdraw the privilege of franking from the mem-postage; better, even, if necessary, to make an bers of both Houses of Congress. addition to the compensation which the members receive for their services, if the present one be found incompetent to their honorable support. In support of this motion, it was said, that the grand security which the people of the United States have in their Representatives is, that those On the other hand, it was observed, that the Representatives are subject to the same regula- privilege of franking was not assumed by the tions as their constituents. In the article of post- members for their own private accommodation, age, this was not the case. Congress, in this case, but for the benefit of their constituents, to transassume to themselves a privilege, which they re-mit to them every necessary information respectfuse to the people; they took money from their constituents, and paid none themselves. The people viewed this privilege with a jealous eye, and could not be pleased to see it enjoyed by Congress, whilst neither the members of the State Assemblies, nor even the Governors were indulged in it. Congress enjoys only chartered rights; and all rights not expressly mentioned in the charter, are of course excluded. The Constitution is their charter; the Convention, who framed it, had, no doubt, well considered the whole subject of privileges, and accurately defined all such as they wished the Legislative body should enjoy distinct from their constituents. In the enumeration of those privileges, there is not a syllable tending to exonerate them from their share of the common burden of postage; they have no constitutional claim to such an immunity, and if they assumed it, they would increase the burden on their constituents. The post office, if unable to maintain itself, must derive its support from other sources of revenue. Already the members of both Houses send and receive, during their session, as many letters through the General Post Office as all the other inhabitants of Philadelphia; those letters, if paid at the usual rates, would amount to half the postage of the United States. The number and bulk of the franked letters and packets excluded the newspapers from the mail, and thus pre ing the operations of the General Government, and to receive from them such information as they might have to communicate. Petitions are frequently enclosed to members; and if these were to be subject to the payment of postage, the privilege of petitioning the House, would be in a great measure destroyed. The diminution of revenue which the post office might in some instances suffer from the privilege of franking, ought not to be deemed a sufficient reason for abolishing that privilege; since it is allowed, that the object contemplated in the establishment was the general convenience, and an easy and speedy mode of disseminating public and private intelligence. Revenue was but a secondary consideration. Although the citizens who live at the Seat of Government, and have daily opportunities of learning from the newspapers what public measures are going forward, may not be materially affected by the abrogation of the privilege, yet the case would be widely different with those who live at a distance, especially when fiscal operations were on foot; those who are informed, will make a prey of those who are ignorant, and destructive speculation will enrich the few, at the expense of the many. In a Government of opinion (which is the Government of America) much greater reliance is to be placed on the confidence of the people than upon any other circumstance: that confidence can only be DECEMBER, 1791.] Post Office Bill-Election of President. [H. or R. for future consideration, the Committee rose and reported progress. THURSDAY, December 22. A bill for carrying into effect a contract between the United States and the State of Pennsylvania was read the second time, and committed. A memorial and address of the people called Quakers, from their several religious societies in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, was presented to the House and read, praying that Congress will adopt such measures as, in their wisdom, may be deemed salutary and effectual, for securing peace and friendship with the original holders of this land. Ordered, That the said memorial and address do lie on the table. referred several motions for obtaining annual and Mr. GERRY, from the committee to whom were regular statements of the receipts and expenditures of all public moneys, and for a due examination of such statements, made a report; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table. the result of the fullest information; but if the privilege of franking were taken away, the avenues of information would be, in a great measure, closed; for the members could not undertake, at their own private expense, to transmit intelligence to every part of the Union; yet the citizens have a right to expect information, not only of the acts of Government, but also the principles upon which they were grounded. The abuses of the privilege, that have prevailed in England, do not prevail here; and its abolition would give general dissatisfaction, particularly in the more distant parts of the Union, where information would be subject to a very high tax, if circulated through the post office, at the ordinary rates of postage. Of those bundles of letters received and despatched by members of Congress, many (though far from being unnecessary, as had been said) would perhaps never be written, if they were not to pass free of postage; and thus that free communication of sentiment between the Representative and constituent, which is so essential in a Government like this, would be in a great measure cut off; and the post office would gain little or nothing by it, as those packets of newspapers, bills, reports, &c., would either be sent by private hand, or not The House resolved itself into a Committee of sent at all; even here an inequality would prevail, as the people who live near the Seat of Go- the Whole House on the bill sent from the Senate, vernment, and all along the main road, could, entitled "An act relative to the election of a Prefrom the greater frequency of opportunities, re-sident and Vice President of the United States, ceive such packets with more ease and regularity, and declaring the officer who shall act as Presiwhilst those in more remote situations could sel- dent, in case of vacancies in the offices both of dom or never receive them, unless by the mail. President and Vice President." The expense arisng from the per centage to the postmaster on the free letters, is but trifling, as in such cases he receives no more for a packet of two ounces than for a single letter; and as to the idea of allowing the members to make a charge for their letters, this would be no better than receiving with one hand and paying away with the other. If, however, it were found absolutely necessary to take precautions against the abuses that were apprehended, this might be done by limiting the number or weight of letters that should go free by any one post, without entirely preventing the interchange of sentiments between the Representative and his constituents. The Committee then rose, without taking the question on the amendment. ELECTION OF PRESIDENT, &c. The bill was read by the Clerk. The first section being again read by the Chairman, Mr. TUCKER moved to amend this clause by striking out these words, "except in cases in which an extraordinary election of President and Vice President shall take place, as hereinafter specified." This motion was agreed to. able Mr. SEDGWICK made some general observations on the great objects of the bill, and adverting to the term proposed for the choice of Electors of President and Vice President, observed that he had his doubts whether it would not be best to give a longer time. He enlarged on the disagreeconsequences which would probably ensue, in case there should not be a choice by the Electors; as the matter must then be determined by the House, voting according to the Constitution, by States. He descanted on the pernicious consequences which might result from the collision of parties, and the working of passions in the breasts of men whose ardor would probably be excited to the greatest degree on such an occasion; every reasonable measure should be adopted to prevent the evils which he deprecated; he therefore moved that the words "thirty days" should be struck out, in order to give the people a longer time to give in their votes for Electors. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole (Mr. W. SMITH in the chair) and re- Mr. WHITE objected to the motion. He conceived sumed the consideration of the Post Office Bill. it was calculated to produce the very mischiefs After having proceeded through all the remain-the gentleman appeared to deprecate. If it had der of the bill, except the eighth, the twenty&cond, and twenty-third sections, (respecting the carriage of newspapers,) which were postponed been possible, he could have wished that the Electors should meet and give in their votes on the very day of their being chosen; he wished as much as the gentleman to adopt measures to prevent the evils he mentioned; but did not think the motion would conduce to that object; he thought the time should rather be contracted than extended. Mr. DAYTON also objected to the motion; he thought fourteen days would be a more proper time; it was the design of the Constitution, though it is not expressed, that the President should not know the characters to whom he is indebted for his election. [DECEMBER, 1791. tificates may not be made. He seconded the motion to strike out the clause, and proposed a substitute making it the duty of the Electors to procure for themselves the necessary certificates. Mr. LIVERMORE spoke in favor of the clause; he did not consider it either as an undue assumption of power, or degrading to the Executives of the respective States. Mr. BARNWELL said, a small addition to the clause would in his opinion obviate every difficulty; the words he proposed to insert were" or such person as the Executive may appoint." Mr. STURGES moved to strike out "Executive," and insert "the Legislature." Mr. SEDGWICK observed, that the objections would be very proper was it certainly known that the Electors would always agree in a choice; but this he conceived, it was hardly possible should always be the case; and what will then take place? The election devolves on this House, and the Electors will then be known, and liable to all that intrigue and cabal which has prevailed in other countries. He left it to the consideration of the Committee to determine on the immense import-gatived. ance of providing in season against the evils of a contested election, in the case now before them. Mr. BALDWIN objected to the motion; but said if it was struck out, he should then move to insert a clause which should assign different periods according to the circumstances of the several States, so that the Electors should meet as nearly as possible at the same time in all the States. Mr. NILES objected to the motion; and the question being put it was negatived. The clause which makes it the duty of the Executive of the several States to cause the names of the Electors to be certified, was objected to. Mr. J. SMITH said, it appeared to him that the proposed alteration would amount to exactly the same thing; for the duty of giving the certificate would eventually devolve on the Executive. The motion for striking out the clause was ne The ninth section provides, that in case of vacancies in the offices of President and Vice President, the President of the Senate pro tem. or the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall act as President. Mr. WHITE moved the section should be struck out. He said the House had formerly discussed the subject and could not agree; the first part of the bill is necessary; this is not of immediate importance to be attended to. Mr. FITZSIMONS said, he supposed the question must be determined some time or other, and he knew of no reason why it should not be decided at this time; to strike out the clause would, in effect, be to declare that the House could not agree. Mr. NILES observed, that no person could be called upon to discharge any duty on behalf of the United States, who had not accepted of an appointment under their authority. He thought that this Mr. WILLIAMSON was in favor of striking out. was opening the door too wide, and involves a Mr. LIVERMORE objected to the motion; he said blending of the respective powers and duties of no two subjects could possibly be more intimately each, which are not warranted by the Constitu- connected; and the provisions of the bill are such tion; and he observed that he should be sorry that as to render the intermission, during which this the Government of the United States should at-regency was to take place, as short as possible; he tempt to exercise a power which they are not competent to carrying into execution. He moved that the clause should be struck out. Mr. SEDGWICK observed that if Congress were not authorized to call on the Executives of the several States, he could not conceive what description of persons they were empowered to call upon. hoped the clause would not be stricken out. Mr. WHITE added some further objections to the section; he said it was distinct from the bill, and though a majority of the Committee were in favor of the characters nominated, yet he thought it would be best to make it the object of another bill, and of an independent discussion. Mr. SEDGWICK said, he hoped the section would not be struck out, especially if there is a majority of the Committee in favor of it. He observed, that last session there was no decision in the case; he conceived it necessary that the business should be now decided on; and adverting to the particular characters named, he said they were as far remo ved from any influence of the Executive as any persons that could be possibly pointed out. Mr. NILES said he considered this section as degrading to the Executive of the several States; and inquired what is to be done in case those Executives should refuse to comply with the requisition? Mr. CLARK said, it appeared to him that the Committee was creating difficulties where none before existed. He observed that the choosing these Electors was a privilege conferred on the people, and that this was merely pointing out the Mr. BARNWELL was in favor of going into a dismode of exercising this privilege; he thought the cussion of the subject at this time. He said there clause stood very well and would create no un- was a large number of the present House who had easiness whatever. not heard the observations offered in the last ConMr. HILLHOUSE said, he considered the provi-gress; he supposed the present as proper a time to sion improper. It imposed a duty on the Supreme consider the subject as any that could occur. If Executives of the several States, which they might, gentlemen who are opposed to the section will or might not execute; and thus the necessary cer-offer their objections, he should be glad to hear DECEMBER, 1791.] Election of President-Post Office Bill. them; if they were conclusive, he should vote to strike out the section. If nothing was offered, he should vote against the motion. Mr. STURGES mentioned several objections to the section, which in his opinion rendered it unconstitutional; he could not find that the Speaker of the House, or President of the Senate pro tem. were officers of the Government in the sense contemplated by the Constitution. The compensations of the President and Vice President are settled by the House; the Speaker would have to decide on those compensations; this he said rendered him evidently improper. He further observed that the consequence would be, caballing and electioneering in the choice of Speaker. Mr. WHITE said, the Speaker was not a permanent officer, if he could be considered as one in any point of view; but he was of opinion, that he was no more an officer of Government than every other member of the House. The question for striking out the section was negatived. Mr. STURGES then moved to strike out the words, "the President of the Senate pro tempore, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives." [H. OF R. with improper and incompetent persons. Besides, it was taking away the choice from the people, and thus violating the first principle of a free elective Government. The Senate are appointed by the people, or their Representatives, and hence, in his opinion, filling the vacancy would devolve with the greatest propriety on that body. Mr. WILLIAMSON was in favor of the motion for striking out both the characters. He observed, that this extensive construction of the meaning of the word officer, would render it proper to point out any person in the United States, whether connected with the Government or not, as a proper person to fill the vacancy contemplated. Before taking the question upon the amendment, the Committee rose. FRIDAY, December 23. On a motion made and seconded, "That the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury, upon the petition of George Webb, be referred to a Se lect Committee, and that the Committee be instructed ceivers of Continental Taxes in the several States, as referred to Mr. LIVERMORE, Mr. GILES, Mr. CLARK, Mr. GILES stated the reasons which he conceived fully proved the unconstitutionality of the clause. The characters referred to he did not think were officers. If they had been considered as such, it is probable they would have been designated in the Constitution; the Constitution refers to some permanent officer to be created pursuant to the provisions therein contained. These persons are not permanent; a permanent officer was contemplated; the subject was not to be left to any casualty, if it could possibly be prevented. Mr. SEDGWICK said, he did not know what offiA memorial and petition of sundry merchants cer could with propriety be said to be permanent; of the city of Charleston, in the State of South offices are held during good behaviour in some in- Carolina, engaged in commerce, previous to the stances, and in others during pleasure; but it will be late Revolution, was presented to the House and impossible to say that any officer is a permanent read, stating the peculiar hardships under which officer, for the expression is very extensive. He was surprised to hear the idea controverted, that the tion of the fourth article of the definitive Treaty they labor, from the two-fold causes of the operaSpeaker of the House, or the President of the Se-of Peace, and of so much of the act of Congress nate, pro tem., is not an officer. In common parlance he was sure there was no difficulty in the matter. Mr. GERRY observed, that some gentlemen had said the Speaker is not an officer; but if he is not an officer, what is he? He then read a clause from the Constitution, which says that the House shall choose their Speaker and other officers. He hoped, however, that the Speaker of the House of Representatives would be struck out, in order to avoid blending the Legislative and Executive branches together. He considered this measure as a political stroke of the Senate; but he hoped that the House would never consent to making their Speaker an amphibious animal. He moved therefore that the words "Speaker of the House of Representatives" should be struck out. Mr. HILLHOUSE objected to any officer appointed by the Executive being inserted. He said, if that should be the case, the appointments would in most cases be made with reference to that object; and hence important offices would often be filled the House. for funding the public debt as redeems the old Continental money, at the rate of one hundred dollars thereof for one dollar specie, the former requiring them to pay their British debts in sterand the latter, depriving them of all hope of inling money, with full interest to the present time, demnity, from the effects of depreciation and tender laws to which they were exposed during the war, and praying relief. Ordered, That the said memorial and petition do lie on the table. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House, on the bill for carrying into effect the contract between the United States and the State of Pennsylvania; and, after some time spent therein, the Committee rose and reported the bill without amendment. It was ordered to be engrossed. POST OFFICE BILL. The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House, on the bill for esta |
