He

O'Donoghue) and asked him for a copy of their miserable holdings,' is totally devoid of it; and on reading it he must confess foundation." that he did not see that there was much in Yet these very statements, so "totally it to which any Irish Member could object. devoid of foundation,' were alluded to toThe speech of his hon. Friend, however, night, by his hon. Friend, as established was not exactly in keeping with the tem- facts. He must make one appeal to perate and moderate words he had proposed; his hon. Friend the Member for Tralee, and, therefore, with great respect for the and ask him if any English Member got up talents, and with high admiration for the in that House and ventured to assail his eloquence, he had displayed, he could not countrymen with language he had himself consent to follow him into the lobby. used, whether he would not, with that galEvery one who had heard the hon. Mem-lantry for which he is so eminently conber must, moreover, regret that one possess-spicuous, vindicate his countrymen against ing so much ability and kindly feeling should have allowed either his oratory or his imagination to carry him to some of the lengths which he had gone that night. As a county representative of the north of Ireland, and the only one who had as yet spoken in this debate, he entered his protest against the statements made by the hon. Member (The O'Donoghue) with reference to atrocities said to have been committed in the county of Donegal. The hon. Gentleman had adverted to them as if they were admitted facts; but he (Lord Claud Hamilton) undertook to meet him on every point, and show that he had been the victim of the grossest misrepresentation. He did not wish to rest his denial of these statements on his own words, and he would, therefore, read a few lines from the Report of a Committee of the House, which sat on the very subject. Statements had been made of the heartless, cold-blooded conduct of some of the landlords, which it was said had driven the people of Donegal to poverty, desolation, and misery. An impartial Committee, consisting of English, Scotch, and Irish Members, was selected from that House, and they came to the following Resolution upon the evidence placed before them, by the authors of the statements complained of. The Committee found

such unworthy and undeserved calumnies?
The hon. Gentleman had unfairly assumed
that Irish questions were put down by
English and Scotch Members. He (Lord
Claud Hamilton) had sat in that House for
thirty-one years, and he maintained that
such a statement was totally devoid of truth,
and an unworthy calumny on the Scotch
and English Members of that House.
had never known an Irish question, when
fairly brought forward and practically
debated, not listened to with attention,
however much it might interfere with the
general business of the country and the
convenience of hon. Members, and he ex-
pressed his gratitude for the generosity and
liberality of the House with regard to Irish
subjects. If the hon. Gentleman would
only turn his eloquence and talents to a
more practical use than he had to-night, he
predicted for him a far greater success than
he would be likely to meet with on that
occasion. The great fault hon. Gentlemen
committed was in bringing forward at one
time a number of alleged grievances, instead
of confining themselves to one subject, and
having it fairly and thoroughly discussed.
If they would abstain from that, and bring
forward what they considered solutions for
the difficulties they complained of in the
manner he had suggested, he should be
able to recognize in it statesmanlike con-
duct, and his hon. Friends the Members for
Tralee and Cork would thus be doing a far
greater service to Ireland than by contenting
themselves with making discursive speeches
which did not suggest any practical solu-
tion of the grievances of which they com-
plained. If he felt as strongly on any
supposed grievances as his hon. Friends
evidently did, from the frequent occasions
on which they dilated on them, he should
feel it to be his first and most solemn duty
to offer suggestions and to bring forward
measures which might form a basis on
which remedial legislation might proceed.
He protested against what had been said

vernment.

with regard to Donegal, and he could, if stance which suggested the question. It necessary, show that it was incorrect, but must be remembered that most of the had been got up to excite the feelings of emigrants were young people, whose labour the people. He should support the Ad- had been lost to their own country; and dress as proposed by Her Majesty's Go- he could not but think, therefore, that if the money which had been spent on emigration had been spent on the encouragement of trade and manufactures, a very different result would have followed. It was to the extension of trade and manufactures he looked for an improvement in the condition of Ireland; but, to bring that about, security of property must be a first condition. He, therefore, hoped that to secure this all friends of Ireland would at present apply their exertions. It was not enough when you had to deal with ignorance to make a statement of the hopelessness of insurrection. You must use some argument that would be unmistakably de

COLONEL VANDELEUR said, he regretted that hon. Members should feel so much interest in making it appear that Ireland was disaffected. Some hon. Gentlemen spoke as if disaffection existed all over three of the Irish provinces.

SIR FREDERICK HEYGATE. said, he gave full credit to the Irish Government for the vigour it had shown in the Fenian prosecutions. Praise was due to the Lord Lieutenant especially; and it was gratifying to find that his Excellency was so well supported by the middle classes. In the county which he had the honour to represent, the law was still respected. It was one into which Fenianism had not penetrated to any great extent; but even there the bad effects of the conspiracy were felt. A stop had been put to the establishment of manufactories-capitalists being deterred from embarking their money in a country monstrative. He believed that if 10,000 in which there did not appear to be ordinary men could be sent over to Ireland, it would security for commercial enterprize. His put an end to Fenianism at once. When opinion was that the present was not the a feeling of security was restored, he time for inquiry into political grievances. would be ready to vote for an inquiry When the Fenian conspiracy was put an into the cause of the unfortunate circumend to, and when the law was vindicated, stances which had been brought under the then would be the time for an inquiry such notice of the House. as that suggested in the course of this debate. The landlords had been spoken of as if they were indifferent to the state of the country. Holding the stake they did in it, he was at a loss to see how that could be. In the county with which he was connected they had a large measure of tenant-county of Clare, which he represented, right, and there were no religious feuds, was essentially a Roman Catholic county, and yet things were not as they ought to and it was not disaffected. He had had be there; he was sorry to say there did not conversations with the clergy of both deprevail such a spirit of satisfaction as he nominations, especially with the Roman should like to see. Within the last few Catholic clergy-with shopkeepers, farmers years vast numbers of the population of Ire--with all classes, in fact, and the feeling Jand had emigrated; and it could scarcely they expressed was one of extreme horror be expected that the lower classes, receiving of the conspiracy. The conspiracy was as they did by every post, from their rela- one got up in America in 1857 by Mr. tives and friends on the other side of the O'Mahony and others, who appeared to Atlantic, letters speaking of the prosperous think that the whole of Ireland was ready to condition of the emigrants and containing join them. It was sought to be established substantial proof of that prosperity in the in Ireland by American agents; but far shape of remittances, should fail to draw from there being anything like a universal comparisons between their own position feeling of sympathy in Ireland with Feand that of Irishmen who had left their nianism, the farmers in that country feared own country. Irishmen who came to Eng- that if the Fenians came over they would land or who went to Scotland earned large be ejected themselves-that the small wages, and those at home asked why it holdings of the poor would fare no better was that in Ireland wages were so small as than the large ones of the rich. In 1832 compared with those paid to their country- and 1834 the division of the land was the men elsewhere. That was a question which object sought to be achieved; and in 1843 it was difficult to answer without going into and 1844, when immense meetings were political economy; but he believed that held, the people did not assemble for nomuch discontent arose from the circum-thing. They took part in the agitation

The

brought forward by the hon. Member for Tralee, which he therefore hoped would not receive the sanction of the House.

MR. ESMONDE said, that the discussion had assumed a very wide character, which was not unnatural considering the subject, but he ventured to recall the attention of the House to the proposal immediately before it. A paragraph in the Address treated of the Fenian conspiracy, and the Amendment proposed to be substituted for that paragraph had reference to the alleged causes of the sympathy which we were told, and which he believed, existed to a certain extent in Ireland with that conspiracy. Now, hon. Members who like himself were aware of the existence of those causes, but who, at the same time, were unwilling to give the slightest shadow of a reason for any one to believe that they did not entertain the utmost horror of the conspiracy itself, were placed by the Amendment in a very unpleasant position, for to vote for the omission of the clause would be as distasteful to them as to ignore the causes which led to this sympathy with Fenianism. There was another consideration which also influenced him in this matter, should his hon. Friend

with the idea that when the English were expelled the landed proprietors would be expelled with them, and there would be a division of land. When, in 1848, physical succeeded to moral force, the leading idea still was a re-distribution and apportionment of the estates. In 1860, when a meeting presided over by the hon. Member for Tralee was held in Dublin, for the almost avowed purpose of inviting the French to land in Ireland, the late Mr. William Smith O'Brien wrote to the secretary of the meeting protesting, in the strongest language, against such a proceeding. Ireland had been in a state of agitation for the thirty years before the last two years-there was peace until the Fenian movement reached that country. He trusted that the Fenians would find the English Government was too strong for them. The Motion of the hon. Member for Tralee (The O'Donoghue) was in itself harmless, and it might be useful to institute an inquiry into the alleged grievances of Ireland; but if the Motion were carried, the people of Ireland would think the Fenians were right and had really something to complain of. It had been asserted that Fenianism was caused by the Church Establishment, and the opposition to what was called tenant-press his Motion to a division he would right. He did not concur in that view be in a very small minority. Now he of the matter. The Fenians had no- feared this might be misunderstood in Irething to say to the Established Church; land, and that the people of that country and, as to tenant-right, he might re- might, when they saw the body of English mark that it was largely exercised in Liberals voting in the majority, mistake his county, and, indeed, he knew few the significance of the division, and conlandlords whe did not allow it. He de- sider, however erroneously, that that party nied also what the hon. Member for the had refused to listen to their claims for city of Cork (Mr. Maguire) had stated- redress; and that thus the union, or rather namely, that no tenants who had leases he might say re-union, which he was happy had left the country, for he knew several to say was taking place between English cases of such tenants having gone to Ame- and Irish Liberals, might be in some sort rica. Neither was it correct to state that endangered, and that good feeling which the want of work was a reason for their was growing up between them might run going. He knew of hundreds of men who some risk of being impaired. He would, had been induced to join the Federal army, therefore, suggest to his hon. Friend the and who were under engagement to return Member for Tralee, that should he succeed to Ireland and join the Fenian movement. in eliciting from Her Majesty's Government In his own town twenty young men, ap- a favourable expression of their views upon prentices in different establishments, went the subject of his Amendment, he would all together to join the Federal army and have done good service to his country and several returned to Ireland; but when they attained his object; and that he should not, heard that the Government were taking under the circumstances, press it to a divistrong measures, and that the Commission sion. The Lord Lieutenant and his hon. was issued, they absconded, and no more was Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland at seen of them. In Dublin there were hun- the Lord Mayor's dinner in Dublin the dreds of such fellows lounging about the other day, gave utterance to certain sentistreets. This state of things was danger-ments as to the policy of the Government ous, but it certainly was not one which regarding Ireland. Should those sentiwould be ameliorated by the Motion ments be endorsed by the Government here Colonel Vandeleur

he thought that might fully satisfy his hon. I to the Motion which he has made. I take Friend, as it certainly would him, as to their that Motion in the form in which he has intentions. He took the liberty of address- himself laid it before the House, as a ing himself more particularly to the leader Motion to omit from our Address a paraof the House, and saying that some of his graph corresponding with the paragraph in speeches during the last Session had raised the Speech which related to Fenianism, hopes in Ireland, and exercised large in- and to substitute for it the words he has fluence upon the late elections there; and proposed. We are not prepared to part the result was seen in the increased num- with the paragraph which relates to Feber of Liberals returned to the present Par-nianism. It has three objects. In the liament as compared with the last. He begged very respectfully, then, to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, and to ask him merely to endorse the expressions of two Members of his own Government.

first place it aims at denouncing the conspiracy, which, as we believe, is subversive of all that a civilized community ought to cherish and maintain. I understand and respect the motives of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Maguire), when he states that persons of pure and virtuous life are unhappily involved in sympathy with this conspiracy. It is an unhappy truth that, amid the infirmities of human nature, purity of intention is no uniform safeguard against the most serious errors. But we are not here to pass moral judgment upon our countrymen. We are here to denounce a great public evil; and this solemn denunciation which Her Majesty has been advised to utter from the Throne will, I trust, be sustained and re-echoed by the general and, I venture to hope, the unanimous judgment of the House. In the second place, the paragraph states a fact as important as it is gratifying. It is gratifying that this unhappy outbreak has developed in Ireland a public opinion which has sustained and strengthened the arm of law and authority, and has enabled the Government to walk firmly forward in the path of repression without fear without harshness, and without favour. The pub

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I have been anxious to follow this debate to its close, and to be guided entirely by the convenience of the House, in either confining myself to the single subject which has as yet been introduced into the discussions of this evening, or in addressing myself at once to remarks which any Gentleman might wish to make on any other topic adverted to in the Address. As however, during the whole of the evening, the attention of the House has been confined to a subject well worthy of that attention, I will follow the example of those who have addressed us this evening, and offer a few remarks on the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Tralee (The O'Donoghue), reserving liberty to myself, if occasion should arise, and if other subjects should subsequently be introduced in the discussion on the entire question, to offer such explanation as may be required on the part of the Government. With respect to the debate of this evening, I cannot but begin by say-lic opinion to which I refer is happily not ing that I think those who have watched it through the many hours during which it has continued will agree with me in the belief that Ireland has no cause to be ashamed of the manner in which her case has been stated by her representatives; whether I look to the ability displayed; to the spirit of seriousness and earnestness which marked their speeches; to the strong and unequivocal language which they have held on the subject of the Fenian conspiracy; or last, and not least important, to the determined disposition they have shown to prefer the methods of constitutional action and discussion to other and less legitimate methods of advancing political ends. But, Sir, while acknowledging the ability, and even the spirit, of the hon. Member for Tralee, I must explain why it is impossible for the Government to accede

dependent upon any one class or any one portion of the Irish people, however important or however powerful; but it represents, as has been truly said in the Speech and in the Address, all who are interested in the maintenance of authority, property, and religion without distinction of creed or sect. The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley), however, in the tranquil period of the evening, uttered a protest against placing upon the same ground the disapprovals which have been emphatically declared by the Roman Catholic clergy, and those which have proceeded from other quarters, and which are entertained in every loyal heart and every enlightened mind. But, Sir, we differ from the hon. Member for Peterborough, as the especial object of this paragraph is to mark the satisfaction with which Her Majesty's