[No. 46] STATEMENTS OF HON. THEODORE DOUGLAS ROBINSON, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE NAVY; REAR ADMIRAL CHARLES B. MCVAY, JR., BUDGET OFFICER; CAPT. ARTHUR J. HEPBURN AND COMMANDER PAUL BASTEDO, OF THE DIVISION OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE, ON THE STATE OF THE NAVY COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, The committee met at 10.30 o'clock, a. m., pursuant to adjournment, Hon. Thomas S. Butler (chairman) presiding. The CHAIRMAN. I think we have had the last word on the comparison of the numbers of cruisers built, building, and projected by the different nations. Have the other members of the committee any further questions to ask on that line? (There were no questions.) The CHAIRMAN. Then, if it is the desire of the committee, we will go ahead with the submarines. STATEMENTS OF HON. THEODORE DOUGLAS ROBINSON, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE NAVY; REAR ADMIRAL CHARLES B. MCVAY, JR., BUDGET OFFICER; CAPT. ARTHUR J. HEPBURN AND COMMANDER PAUL BASTEDO, OF THE INTELLIGENCE DIVISION The CHAIRMAN. Captain, will you turn, please, to your figures, and tell us how many submarines we now have, how many are under construction, and how many are authorized and appropriated for, along the same line that we followed yesterday in the comparison of the cruiser strength of the various nations? Captain HEPBURN. The United States has now built six fleet submarines, which include the three new ones. The CHAIRMAN. What is the tonnage of each one? Captain HEPBURN. The total tonnage is 9,675. Mr. MILLER. What do you designate as a fleet submarine, as distinguished from any other kind of submarine? Captain HEPBURN. We have a specific definition. A fleet submarine is but primarily a submarine that has the speed and the seagoing qualities to accompany the fleet. Mr. MILLER. Are there any in the United States Navy that have not the seagoing qualities sufficient to accompany the fleet? Captain HEPBURN. Oh, yes; what we call "submarines, first line," that have not the speed to keep up with the fleet. Mr. MILLER. Then you have only six that can keep up with the fleet? Captain HEPBURN. Only six called fleet submarines. Specifically, a fleet submarine is one which mounts 3-inch guns plus, is of 1,000 tons or over in displacement, and has a surface speed of 20 knots. plus. Mr. MILLER. One thousand tons and over? Captain HEPBURN. One thousand tons and over; 9,675 is the total tonnage of our fleet submarines built. The CHAIRMAN. Have we any projected? Have we any fleet submarines provided for? Captain HEPBURN. Yes, sir; there are three authorized but not appropriated for.. The CHAIRMAN. There are three authorized by law. Under what program; what year? That is not on our 1916 program, is it? Captain HEPBURN, Yes, sir; 1916. The CHAIRMAN. That is, 10 years on those three; and they have not yet been provided for in any way? Captain HEPBURN. No, sir The CHAIRMAN. Simply authorized? The CHAIRMAN. Have you submitted an estimate for an appropriation to construct those submarines? Captain HEPBURN. That is outside my province, sir. I can not say about that. The CHAIRMAN. Admiral, have you submitted an estimate for an appropriation to construct those submarines? Admiral McVAY. We have not; no, sir The CHAIRMAN. I am not going to try to persuade you to construct the submarines. You know what is your duty, plainly enough, and you are performing it, no doubt. But have you got it in your mind that you ever will submit an estimate to construct those submarines that we authorized 10 years ago, or do you think you will forget them? Admiral MCVAY. At present the Navy Department does not contemplate asking for funds for those three submarines. The CHAIRMAN. Is it because Congress authorized them that they do not ask for them? Admiral MCVAY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. It is in contemplation that you will proceed under the authority of 1916 and build these three submarines? Admiral MCVAY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Very good. These six fleet submarines have been built under the provisions of the 1916 act? Admiral MCVAY. Not entirely. The authorizations come under acts from 1914 through 1918. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that you can improve upon the six? Mr. ROBINSON. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Then let us turn to Great Britain and see how we compare with Great Britain in fleet submarines. Captain HEPBURN. In the same class, Great Britain has four built, three building, and six authorized and appropriated for. The CHAIRMAN. That is 13. Captain HEPBURN. And 18 authorized but not yet appropriated for. The CHAIRMAN. That is 31? Captain HEPBURN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Now let me see if I understand it. We are still talking about fleet submarines? Captain HEPBURN. Fleet submarines; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Now let us allow our minds to travel over a period of time in the future, say five years. In 1932, then, Captain, you would anticipate that Great Britain would have how many fleet submarines? The CHAIRMAN. And how many would you have, under that authority of law? Captain HEPBURN. A possible nine. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is about the same proportion. What is the tonnage of the British fleet submarines? Captain HEPBURN. The four that are now built aggregate 8,680 tons; the three building aggregate 4,145; the six authorized and appropriated for, 8,070 tons. The 18 authorized but not appropriated for are of unknown tonnage so far. The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Secretary, is it contemplated that you will increase the size of these three new submarines when you construct them? Mr. ROBINSON. I do not think so. The CHAIRMAN. These British submarines that Captain Hepburn has told us of are much larger in size than ours. Captain HEPBURN. Not all; no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Three of them are 4,000 tons? Captain HEPBURN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Is not that larger than ours? Captain HEPBURN. Our six aggregate 9,675 tons. Captain HEPBURN. A trifle larger. The CHAIRMAN. I do not see very much difference in tonnage, but the difference is in the numbers. How about the guns that they carry? Captain HEPBURN. These are classified by our own classification, and they all fall under the description of 3-inch guns plus, 1,000 tons plus in tonnage, and 20 knots plus in speed. Mr. BRITTEN. Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask a question, not necessarily of the gentleman who is in the witness chair but of the Assistant Secretary or some other of the naval officers present. Is it deemed necessary by the department that our tonnage in submarines equals Great Britain's or Japan's? I mean, is it deemed of equal importance as compared with cruiser tonnage? In other words, could not Great Britain, with her island possessions, reasonably make greater use of submarines than we could; and, on the other hand, should not we reasonably have just as many tons of cruisers as Great Britain or Japan? Admiral MCVAY. It is contemplated to have an equal number. Admiral MCVAY. Yes, sir; to extend the ratio to all classes of ships. Mr. BRITTEN. But the geographical location of England is such that personally I do not think that we should aim to compete with England in the construction of submarines; I mean so far as tonnage is concerned; nor do I think we should aim to compete with Japan. I am merely expressing my personal views, and I should like to be enlightened on that point. But I do think, of course, that in battle ships and cruisers, with great range, etc., it is an entirely different matter. I should like to have your opinion along that line. Admiral MCVAY. Of course, we have a very long coast line, and it is necessary for us to have quite a number of submarines for that reason. Mr. BRITTEN. Do you not think it is stretching this 5-5-3 ratio a little bit to try to apply it to submarines? Captain HEPBURN. We are now talking of fleet submarines, which accompany the fleet and form an integral part of the fighting line. In other submarines I think your criticism might be more pertinent: but these are fleet submarines. Mr. BRITTEN. Personally I am convinced that the suggestion of fleet submarines accompanying the fleet is mythical. It has never been done before, and it never will be done. At least, we have never constructed submarines that did go out with the fleet. Mr. VINSON. Yes; we have. Mr. BRITTEN. That is the reason it takes us 15 years to build one. Mr. ROBINSON. We have got them. Mr. BRITTEN. Yes, we have! I would like to have you show me some that accompany the fleet and do business with them. You usually have to tie them to a rowboat and pull them in. Mr. ROBINSON. Those are the ones that are not fleet submarines. Mr. BRITTEN. Of the hundreds of submarines that we have, we have not six that are worth a damn. Mr. ROBINSON. Well, I am not going to contradict you. I wish we had them. The CHAIRMAN. We can not answer Mr. Britten's question until we know the value of a "damn.' Mr. BRITTEN. I think, Mr. Chairman, when we aim to compete with foreign powers on submarines under the 5-5-3, ratio we are stretching the 5-5-3 idea. The CHAIRMAN. I do not know whether they will keep up or not. They are built to keep up. They say they are experimenting. I do not know what the result will be. Mr. BRITTEN. That is the reason we are not going ahead with the rest of them. We are experimenting and still experimenting. We have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on submarines in the last 14 years since I have been sitting on this committee, and as near as I can tell they have been a farce-a complete farce and failure. Speaking as one member of this committee, I am thoroughly disappointed in what the Navy Department has accomplished in the direction of submarines. The CHAIRMAN. Now, have we anybody present in this vast concourse who can stand up and defend the submarines against our friend Mr. Britten? Mr. DARROW. Our expert. Mr. MILLER. We have an expert on the committee. I wonder if there are any experts in the Navy Department on submarines. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Captain. We have the British end of it. Let us find out what Japan is doing. Captain HEPBURN. Japan has six fleet submarines built, with a total tonnage of 10,110; five building, of an aggregate tonnage of 7,000; nine authorized and appropriated for, with a total tonnage of 11,970. In her new replacement program that we spoke about yes terday, which may be authorized at the coming session of the Diet, and probably will be, she has four submarines projected, either fleet or cruiser type submarines. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that has not materialized yet? Captain HEPBURN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. But nevertheless it is in the minds of the Japanese authorities to build them. Has France any submarines? Captain HEPBURN. No fleet submarines. The CHAIRMAN. None at all? Captain HEPBURN. None at all. The CHAIRMAN. Has she any projected? Captain HEPBURN. None projected and none authorized. Captain HEPBURN. Italy has four now building. The CHAIRMAN. Let us see if I am correct on that. The estimated tonnage of submarines, for Great Britain, on what is known as the 5-5-3 basis, is 20,895 tons. She has already that? Captain HEPBURN. Built or building, also those authorized and appropriated for, yes, sir; but 18 projected in addition. The CHAIRMAN. She has already 20,895. America, when her program is completed, will have 15,556 tons; is that right? Captain HEPBURN. Approximately. That includes the three which are not yet appropriated for, and whose tonnage has not been an nounced. The CHAIRMAN. Japan, with her program, when completed, will have 29,080 tons of submarines? Captain HEPBURN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And figuring it out in the same proportion, she would have 12,540 tons; is that about right? Captain HEPBURN. Yes, sir. If you take the United States as a basis, she should have about 9,000 tons, on the 5-5-3 basis. say Mr. MILLER. Let me see if I have these figures accurately. You that Japan has five built and in commission? Captain HEPBURN. Japan has six built and in commission. Mr. MILLER. Of 10,110 tons? Captain HEPBURN. Yes, sir. Mr. MILLER. And five building? Captain HEPBURN. Five building. Mr. MILLER. And how many authorized and appropriated for? Captain HEPBURN. Nine authorized and appropriated for. Mr. MILLER. They are about the same size as the Americans and the British, then? Captain HEPBURN. A trifle larger, I should say, sir; somewhat larger on the basis of total tonnage. Mr. MILLER. They are building these ships in Japan, are they; or do you know? Captain HEPBURN. Some of them I know are building there. I can look that up for you. I think they are all building there. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, have you any suggestion to make at this point? Mr. ROBINSON. No, sir. Captain HEPBURN. We have other classes of submarines. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; let us go through with them in the same way. We have how many other classes? |