Captain Sir Charles Mr. Saw bridge. ordinary, extraordinary, and unprovided fervices. Sir Charles went into a long and circumftantial detail of the charges incurred and ftated under each feparate head, from whence it appeared that upon the whole, there was a confiderable excefs, over the estimates of the last year, which he endeavoured to account for, by declaring, that a very great part of the exceeding was occafioned by charges incurred in 1779, the demands for which were not made at the ordnance board till after the delivery of the laft year's eftimates. In the course of his fpeech, Sir Charles defcanted on the feveral causes for so large an eftimate, ftating the fortifications at Gibraltar, the great demand for ordnance of all kinds in confequence of the various fervices of the war, the works carrying on at Portfmouth and at Chatham, the expence of the late encampments near town, the number of veffels belonging to the board of ordnance, which were employed in the navy, and a variety of other matters. Sir Charles, before he fat down, faid, that fuch had been the care and affiduity of the noble Lord who prefided, and the rest of the board, that altho' his Majefty's arfenals and magazines were formerly left in a miferable ftate of unprovifion, they were now full of fores of every kind, and fo much was ready at Woolwich and elfewhere, that he would venture to fay, let the demands of the ensuing year be what they might, the ordnance office was fufficiently prepared to answer them immediately. Captain Minchin afked, if the 6000l. charged in the eftimate for Plymouth, was all that was spent on the new works there, out of the 20,000l. voted for that fervice laft year; and if fo, where were the remaining 14,000l. Sir Charles Cocks, in reply, faid, he believed the whole of that 20,000l. was expended, and that the 600l. now charged was for expences incurred, over and above the 20,000l. voted last year. Mr. Sawbridge complained of the artillery drivers being allowed half pay. As their duty when employed was labour, he thought they ought not to have any pay, but when they were employed. Sir Jofeph Sir Jofeph Mawbey asked, why the office of Infpector GeMabey. neral of the iron ordnance was continued. He conceived it to be a mere finecure, and understood that it was contrived folely to recompenfe General Defaguliers, with 5col. per annum, for fome ingenious invention. a falary of That gen tleman Gocks. tleman being dead, he faw no manner of reafon for continuing to burthen the public with the payment of the falary. Sir Charles Cocks faid, the office was not a finecure; that Sir Charles General Defaguliers had invented an inftrument, by which the truth of the bore of every piece of ordnance was afcertained, previous to the piece being proved on a proof day; that this inftrument, it was the duty of the Infpector General of the iron ordnance, to apply to each piece of ordnance, and if he was ill, the fire mafter's mate did the duty, and had a falary of 80l. a year for it, which was well deferved by the captain who held the office, he being as good an officer as any in Woolwich yard. Sir Charles added, likewife, that the place was not a new one, there having been formerly a perfon called the Inspector General of the brafs ordnance, whofe office was in truth a mere finecure. Sir Jofeph was not fatisfied, and ftill argued against the continuance of fuch an office. The firft queftion was then put as follows: "Refolved, that it is the opinion of this committee, "That a fum not exceeding 582,929l. 11s. 9d. be granted to his Majefty for defraying the expences of the fervices performed by the office of ordnance for land fervice for the year 1781.1 This was carried, and afterwards the following: "That a fum not exceeding 447,1821. 4s. 6d. be granted to his Majefty for defraying the expence of the fervices performed by the office of ordnance for 1780, and not provided for." Alfo "1,500,000l. for paying off the exchequer bills of the laft feffions." And alfo 1,000,000 for paying off exchequer bills, pursuant to a vote of credit of the laft feffions." November 30. Colonel Barre moved, that there be laid before the Houfe Col. Barré. accounts of the army in North America and the West Indies, diftinguishing the places where they were ftationed, and the national, foreign, and provincial troops, in November, 1779, according to the returns for that year from Sir Henry Clinton. Mr. Jenkinfon (Secretary at War) faid, that for his own Mr Jenkin part he had no objection to give all the information that the fan. papers in his office would enable him to give; but he could only tell in general, how many troops were under the command of fuch or fuch general officers, as Sir Henry Clinton, General General Haldimand in Canada, General Vaughan, and General George Germain came into the House. Col. Barré. Colonel Barré faid, that he would not move for any papers that might give information to the enemy. Encouraged by the secretary at war, on a former day, he had now. moved for the papers fpecified in the motion, and had confined his enquiries to an old date, that he might run no rifque of lofing his motion, The diftribution of the army in November 1779, could not, though exactly known, lead to a knowledge of its prefent diftribution. For in all things, but especially in war, there is a perpetual variation of circumstances, and in the course of a whole year, the stations and the condition of every part almoft of the army must have undergone great viciffitude and alteration. Lord G. Col. Barré. 1 Lord George Germain faid, that the fituation and state of the army in November 1779, accurately defcribed, would give material information with respect to its prefent ftate; as there were parts of the army, particularly thofe forces that were ftationed in Nova-Scotia and Pensacola, that were in the fame fituation now in which they were twelve months ago. Colonel Barré would not, in fo thin a Houfe, try his ftrength against that of the noble Lord. There were fo few. effective men in the House, he faid, looking around him, that they seemed to have been a campaign in the Weft-Indies. The state of the army in America had been laid before the Houfe, on occafion of the Convention of Saratoga in 1777, and he defied miniftry to fay that any bad confequence had arifen from that difcovery; nevertheless, he would not difpute the point with the noble Lord. He would come fo far into his fentiments, if the Houfe would give him leave to amend his motion, as to leave out that part of it which required an account of the diftribution of the troops. Sir George Sir George Savile laughed at the idea of refufing to give an account of the diftribution of the troops in America, left information fhould be given to Mr. Washington; left Mr. Washington fhould know more of it than the House of Commons. Wafhington, he prefumed, needed no information on this subject. Sir George thought it reasonable, that they who gave, or who were forced to give, fuch exorbitant fums of money, fhould be very particularly informed with regard to the objects to which it was applied. Savile. Colonel Barri. Colonel Barré acknowledged the justice of his honourable 'friend's reproaches. He might juftly have stood on the ground taken taken by the honourable baronet, on that ground the motion was defenfible. But, faid the colonel, I defpaired of being able to bring gentlemen on that fide of the House over to it. My friend may try if he can. Sir George Savile faid, he would not attempt it. as Lord George Germain faid, that whatever paffed in the Lord George House of Commons was known over all Europe, as well Germain. to General Washington and the Congrefs. He did not want all the world to know the state of the British army. Colonel Barré's motion, amended as above, was carried nem. con. Barré. Colonel Barré moved, that accounts be laid before the Colonet Houfe of all the loffes fuftained by the army in North America and the Weft-Indies by ficknefs, wounds, defertion, captivity, or otherwife, from the year 1774 to the 1779, inclufive, diftinguishing the regiments on which they fell, and the places and occafions on which they happened. A lift of this kind had been laid before the Houfe in 1777; but it was incomplete, as there were no returns from the German troops. This motion was agreed to nem. con. Colonel Barré moved, that accounts be laid before the House of all the troops embarked for America, according to the embarkation returns from 1777 to 1780 inclufive. This mo tion was agreed to. He likewife moved, that accounts of all the men raised and employed in the land-fervice in Great Britain and Ireland, including twenty thousand marines, in the years 1777, 1778, 1779 and 1780, the fencibles or militia of Scotland not be ing included, be laid before the Houfe. This motion was alfo agreed to. Sir Philip Jennings Clerke moved, that the monthly returns Sir Philip of the army and militia, ferving in Great Britain, for the Jennings present year, be laid before the House. Clerke. Lord Beauchamp faid that was impracticable, neither did Lord Beau the law require it. The honour of the commanding officer champ. was reckoned fufficient. The honourable gentleman's motion feemed to involve a difhonourable fufpicion that fome tricks were played in the militia regiments; if fo, why did he not speak out? But if he meant to ground in his motion fome improvement, either in difcipline or economy, let him mention it, and then go on with his enquiries. Sir Philip replied, that he must firft know from the returns whether any improvement was wanted. Barré, Colonel Barré reflecting on the great ftrength of the in- Colone ternal defence of this country, feventy-two thousand men VOL. XVIII. Dd laft Lord Lifburne. laft year, and eighty-three thousand this, confidered Sir Philip's motion as calculated and intended not to betray the weakness, but to point out the military power, of Great Britain. On a divifion of the House, Sir Philip's motion was negatived: Ayes The refolutions of the committee on the ordnance fupplies were reported and agreed to. Adjourned to December 4. December 4. The order of the day was for going into a committee of fupply. Mr. Ord took the chair. Lord Lifburne opened the bufinefs, which he faid was to vote the fum required by the navy eftimates. He faid, the admiralty had a right to claim fome little degree of merit, for the great attention they paid to the navy, and the great facility which they gave to the fervice in its feveral applications. He admitted, that the expence, notwithstanding all their care, notwithstanding every poffible prudent arrange ment, and notwithstanding a moft unremitting regard to the ftricteft economy in the management of the expenditure incurred by the navy, ftill amounted rather high; de trufted, however, when the nature of the war was confidered, when it was confidered what large fleets we had at fea, and for what remote corners of the globe the public fervice rendered it neceflary that the admiralty fhould provide fquadrons and veffels of different force, and when it was confidered how little cause there was for real complaint of any kind, the expence would not be thought more than was abfolutely requifite for the purpose, and that the propofitions he fhould have the honour to make to the committee would meet with general concurrence. His Lordfhip then ftated what had been the amount of the ordinary of the navy laft year, and compared it with that defired to be voted for the prefent; affigning the reason why there was any difference, and at the fame time pointing out in what that difference confifted. Having done this, his Lordship proceeded in like manner to open to the committee the amount of the estimates of the extra expence of the navy for the enfuing year, which he faid confifted of three capital articles, viz. The expence of fhips and veffels building in the King's yards. The |