queftions relative to the estimates on the table, or to give any explanation gentlemen might defire. He then moved "that 39,000 men be employed in the fervice of Great Britain for the year 1781."

The question having been read by the chairman,

Col. Barre. Colonel Barre rofe and obferved, that on his reference to the estimates of the last year, and the estimates now propofed, he found that they differed extremely; that it appeared, if he had taken down the amounts exactly, that inftead of a faving by the present estimates, the public were called upon for more men and more money than had been asked last year. For instance, the estimates for guards and garrifons prefented last year was but 35,000 men, whereas now almost 5000 more were asked. He was aware that the right honourable gentleman had made his references to the full number voted laft year, comprehending as well the amount of the estimates first propofed in the committee of fupply, as the augmentations propofed by the right honourable gentleman after Christmas; whereas his account of the number voted last year was taken folely from the estimates, and that he thought the fairest way; becaufe now he fuppofed the right honourable gentleman would come to the Houfe on a future day, and afk for an augmentation of fome kind or other, and therefore till the extent of that augmentation was known, it was impoffible to fay whether the number to be voted this year would be more or lefs than had been voted last year, and the only fair comparison that could be made was, between the estimates of one year and the estimates of another. He wished therefore to know, what the augmentation was likely to be which was to be applied for hereafter.

Mr. Jenkin Mr. Jenkinson, fecretary at war, faid, the hon. gentleman was fou. ftrictly founded in fuppofing that he had formed the account, which he had recited, of the number of men for the army expence, &c. of last year, by uniting the augmentation with the numbers, &c. firft voted by eftimate. That in a war of the nature of the prefent, carried on at a vast distance from the capital, it was impoffible to make an exact estimate of what could only be known to be neceffary, from a knowledge of events which had not yet reached home. Laft year the augmentation was asked for, in confequence of the requifitions of the commanders abroad, and the plans of his Majefty's minifters; this year the fame matters must govern any fimilar requifitions which he might have to make,

The

The right honourable T. Townshend faid, he faw it was the Rt. Hon. design to injure the regular army, merely to benefit two fa- Townbend. vourite regiments. He meant not to give any personal offence, and was aware of the danger of talking about these two regiments; but in fpite of that danger, in fpite of all that had been done, and all that could be threatened, he should perfevere in his duty, and speak his mind freely in that House. He now rofe, not to dwell much upon the two regiments to which he had alluded, but he must take that opportunity to declare, that the manner of recruiting them was fcandalous to the laft degree, any perfon almoft in any condition was taken-boys too young, and men too old, for the fervice. Some things he had feen dreffed up in regimentals, and called foldiers, who did not weigh as much as their arms and accoutrements. A new mode of levying the recruits was adopted; men were committed to the regiments. The practice was common. In the newspapers of that day there was a ftory of an ufher to a school, who had robbed the boys of 301. he was taken before a magiftrate, examined, and his punishment was, a commitment to one of the new regiments, into which he was compelled to enter. He declared, he had lately had an opportunity of seeing the recruits of one of thefe regiments, and had gone through their quarters, and the greatest part of the recruits he faw, were London recruits, men to be met with at Charing-Crofs, men purchased of the common London crimps! The argument therefore, that recruits could not be got for the old regi ments, fell to the ground. Thefe recruits that he had seen, would have entered chearfully into an old regiment, if the levy money for a new one had not been greater; it was therefore the continued new levies, and nothing elfe, that hurt the recruiting fervice. Befides, how fcandalously injurious was it to the feelings of old officers, to be fending out men as colonels, who had never been in the army before, or who had been in very inferior fituations. The laft year, a colonel had gone out to take the fuperior command of a brave and gallant veteran, under whom the new colonel had formerly served as a matrofs. How hard too had been the fate of Colonel Campbell? Now indeed it might be thought that he should not complain, because that officer had got promotion, but then he had been put over the heads of thirty-nine lieutenant colonels. The right honourable gentleman in juftification of the augmentation of the two regiments commanded by Colonel Fullarton and Colonel Humberfton had faid, thofe gentlemen were

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to get no new rank. Laft year thefe regiments were raised for a special service, and on the extraordinary pretence that old regiments would not fuit that fervice fo well. What was become of that fervice now? The regiments were still in England, and to be fure it was a hard fate for Colonel Fullarton to have been in the army a whole year, and to have got no new rank! Colonel Humberston indeed, for whofe private character he had the highest refpect, had been regularly bred in the army, but he had feen no fervice. With regard to what the right honourable gentleman had declared, that the rapid decrease of our army was owing to the unhealthy climates, but "that the Spanish fickness was fo great that it was not to be conceived," he was a little furprifed. He could not fay what degree of ficknefs that might be, which was not to be conceived; but had heard that our own corps, which were carried out raw, and the men in which, when put on board the tranfports for embarkation, were not capable of handling_their arms, had been fo fickly, that they had not landed at St. Lucie a fortnight, before the whole corps were fo bad, they were totally unferviceable, died daily, and could not mufter four men and a corporal who were well enough to put each of their fellow foldiers in the ground after death. Mr.Townshend imputed great blame to minifters for fending new levies abroad, and renewed his complaint made the preceding day, that though the regiments were estimated at 900 men each, there were not in feveral, which he had feen in the courfe of the fummer, many more than 300.

The Secretary at War anfwered Mr. Townshend, and faid tary at War. that office were not to blame, if the recruits were unfit for fervice. That not any regiment had pay, nor any officer his commiffion before the regiment had been reviewed by a general officer, and a return made by that general officer, that the regiment was complete. That it had frequently happened that on these reviews many of the recruits were refused by the general officer, and the perfon who raised the regiment obliged to get more men. With regard to the old regiments being preferable to the new levies, he was ready to admit it: may, he would go ftill farther; he would own that he had much rather have one recruit for a regular regiment, than two for a new-raifed one; he was aware how preferable, and how much fitter for the fervice the one was, when compared to the other; the only ground on which the levies ftruck him

as warrantable, was, they were much easier to be got, and the neceffity of the war was preffing. As to the recruits, furely gentlemen did not expect that as good recruits were to be got now, as in the beginning of the war; or that as fine men were to be feen in a new raised regiment, as in a regiment of militia; the thing was impracticable. In proportion to the continuance of a war, the recruiting fervice became more and more difficult; our refources of men were fo much the nearer exhaufted, and therefore that recruits to be had now, fhould not be equal to thofe had formerly, was a natural confequence, impoffible to be avoided.

General Burgoyne took up the fecretary at war, on his jufti- General fying the preference given to new levies over the old regi- Burgoyne. ments, on the plea of the neceflity of the war, and argued against the admiffion of it. He faid, among various other matters, that it was frequent when a general officer reviewed a new-raifed regiment, for him to find a deficiency of fifty or a hundred men; that when the general officer afked where thofe men were, the commander of the regiment replied, they were fick, or abient on, furlough, and undertook to certify for them. In confequence of this practice, regiments were frequently embarked for foreign service, one hundred men hort of their compliment. The general further faid, that it was well known to every man in the army, that the new levies were mere wax, when fent to unhealthy climates; that they were of no fervice whatever, but melted away immediately. With regard to what his honourable friend near him had faid of the recruits in thofe new regiments, it was ftrictly true, that they were bought up of the crimp merchants at Charing Crois, who tricked all they dealt with, and kept a parcel of good-looking men for occafional recruits, which they ran from one regiment to another, as fuited them, but let them continue in none, He obferved, that this would always be the cafe, whilst the old regiments were restricted to five pounds levy-money, and the new one left ad libitum, to give fix, eight, ten guineas, or what they pleafed.

Sir William Cunying hame replied to General Burgoyne, and Sir Williams faid, to his knowledge, the 92d regiment was complete when Canyingit embarked, at Plymouth. That it had been reviewed by bame. General Stiles, who took no certificate, but vifited and examined the fick himself. That there were none of those * crimps

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Colonel
Barre.

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crimps men in it, which the General had defcribed as being run from regiment to regiment. Sir William said, he thought it due to his friend, who commanded the 92d regiment, to fay thus much for it in his abfence.

Colonel Barre produced a written account of the state of General Clinton's army in November, 1779, which he declared he believed to be accurate, and called upon ministers to contradict it, if they could. By this return, it appeared, that the General's army confifted of 32,000 regulars, and 6,000 Provincials, in November 1779-and as there were 79,000 men voted laft year for the plantation service, the Colonel contended, that there were 41,000 men to be ac counted for, and that the only place any other part of our army could be looked for, was about 10,000 in Gibraltar and Minorca, and the remainder in Canada and the Weft Indies, where he defied minifters to prove, that any thing like the deficiency were employed. He called upon them therefore to account either for the men or the money.

The Secretary at War faid it was impoffible for him to actary at War. count for the diftribution of the army two years back, which was before he held his present office, but if he remembered right, there were 17,000 men on the establishment in the Weft Indies, befides the troops in the Eaft-Indies and in Africa, neither of which places the honourable gentleman had taken the leaft notice of,

Colonel

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The Colonel allowed that those two quarters of the globe had efcaped him, and faid there was one battalion in Afia, (about 1,000) and 213 men in Africa, He laughed at the idea of 17,000 being employed in the Weft-Indies, and said, if he attempted to impofe fuch a legend on people without doors, he fhould be ridiculed, allowing however for the fake of argument, that the cafe were fo, where were the remainder?

The Secretary at War defired that his not being able to actary at War. count, when fuddenly called upon, for the diftribution of the army two years ago might not be misinterpreted.

Gen. Smith.

The Colonel replied again, and General Smith juft rose to fupport General Burgoyne's argument relative to the prefe rence of old regiments when fent on foreign fervice to new levies. The General supported what he faid, by mentioning the manner in which the 74th, 81ft, and another regiment, (with which he had the honour to ferve abroad laft war,)

were