possible priority rights in employment and oftentimes they are not in a position to spend $150 or $200 getting from one spot in Alaska to another and therefore, they are not in a position to accept the job.

Mr. ABBOTT. They might have the same or superior qualifications as the teacher from Maine but could not afford the money to go. Mr. PENROD. That is right.

Mr. ABBOTT. How many of your teachers do come from the States directly, a fairly high percentage?

Mr. PENROD. About 97 percent of them.

Mr. ABBOTT. Ninety-seven percent?

Mr. PENROD. About that.

Mr. ABBOTT. If the transportation were paid for those in the Territory, do you think that percentage would be reduced substantially?

Mr. PENROD. I am not so sure it would right now because of the fact that we do not have too many teachers prepared here in Alaska in our own university, although I am aware of the fact they are going quite strongly now for an excellent department of education up here and we are hoping in 5 or 6 years we will have available to us, and I assume to the Territory in general, a greater number of locally trained teachers.

Mr. ABBOTT. Would that not result in a smaller turnover? In other words, would there not be a tendency on the part of a teacher coming from the States to come here from, well, sort of an adventure complex and having seen Alaska, go back?

Mr. PENROD. Yes, it would. They would be more permanent residents here. Of course, under civil service regulations and provisions and certain other benefits our turnover in the Territory is not as great perhaps as one might think. Last year it was about 15 percent annual turnover. It averages between 15 and 20 per year.

Mr. ABBOTT. Are the teachers here paid more than in the States? Mr. PENROD. It is the same in the States as up here basically. However, up here the teachers get a 25 percent cost-of-living differential.

Mr. ABBOTT. One other question. Do you have charge of the school-lunch program in the schools?

Mr. PENROD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ABBOTT. Someone asked me last night-I do not recall who it was said there was quite a quantity of beans and rice coming up here, surplus commodities, and that many native children do not particularly care for that, it is not part of their diet and just remains surplus. Is that correct?

Mr. PENROD. To a certain extent, yes. We did get an awful lot of beans. However, in some instances children do like them. In other places they do not. And we do have them as part of our supplies in most all of our schools.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Thank you.

Dr. Taylor.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would like to ask one question. What liaison is there between the ANS as far as education is concerned and the commission of education?

Mr. PENROD. The Territorial commission of education, you have reference to?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. PENROD. We work very closely. He has a gentleman in his office, Mr. Isaacs, called the administrative assistant. We have a man in my office who is an education specialist who has charge of the Johnson-O'Malley schools. And we are constantly working together and evaluating and surveying and working out the problems of turnover in Federal operations and Territorial operations.

Mr. TAYLOR. Is the curriculum in the ANS comparable to that of the Territorial educational system?

Mr. PENROD. As nearly so as we can get it and still serve the needs of the natives out in more isolated villages. We follow closely, for instance, their textbooks and we follow closely part of their curriculum. In fact, each of our schools has a copy of the Territorial department of education course of study.

Mr. TAYLOR. But it is flexible enough so that a teacher in the ANS is not straitjacketed into following a program designed for Juneau, Anchorage, or Fairbanks.

Mr. PENROD. That is correct.

Mrs. GREEN. What is the sentiment up here in regard to Federal aid for school construction, and would that affect the Alaska Native Service or be used only in public schools?

Mr. PENROD. It will not affect us but will affect the Territory, however. I understand there is considerable assistance being extended at the present time in places such as Anchorage, Fairbanks, Nome, Ketchikan, Juneau, and greater centers of population.

Mrs. GREEN. It would affect you indirectly, then, as it would relieve the other areas.

Mr. PENROD. That is right.

Mrs. GREEN. You say there are 15,000 youngsters of school age 6 to 18. Have you ever broken down the amount of money spent on each child?

Mr. PENROD. Both in Territorial and Alaska Native Service?

Mrs. GREEN. I am thinking particularly of the Alaska Native Service.

Mr. PENROD. Last year we spent approximately $515 per student. Mrs. GREEN. $515?

Mr. PENROD. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. For the Alaska Native Service?

Mr. PENROD. That is right.

Mrs. GREEN. And what for the others?

Mr. PENROD. I do not know what the Territory is but I think it is somewhere near that figure. It varies so much from year to year you would have to get current figures.

Mr. ABBOTT. Mr. Penrod, does not your future program in the Territory depend somewhat on a decision that might be made as to some of the questions raised at what I believe the subcommittee has been advised was a conference held in Fairbanks to discuss the health, education, and welfare problems of the Alaska native? I believe witnesses will appear to oppose what they consider a movement to relocate natives from the outlying areas to population centers. So that a school-construction program of which you speak, or an expanded program for giving to a greater percentage of the native population a better education would somewhat turn in long range on the decision with respect to that question. Is your office aware

of the fact that there are those who would believe the best solution might be to move them nearer to population centers?

Mr. PENROD. Yes, we are generally aware of the pros and cons of the problem. However, I do believe unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation generally throughout Alaska regarding this particular problem. Now to my knowledge we have never set forth or advocated going out and picking up the youngsters in the villages and bringing them into these greater centers of population. The information has probably grown out of a long-range plan which we have for high school for secondary students. At Mount Edgecumb which we started in 1948 we had approximately 150 high school students. It has increased annually between 100 and 150 students and we now have about 800 to 850 students, I think it is, making application for secondary schools and we only have place for 600.

Mr. ABBOTT. Is that somewhat comparable to the Navajo Intermountain School at Brigham City, Utah?

Mr. PENROD. Yes, it is.

Mr. ABBOTT. You have some vocational training for them at Mount Edgecumb?

Mr. PENROD. A good portion of the curriculum there is vocational and the rest is academic. It is regularly accredited by the Northwest Association of Higher Schools.

Mr. ABBOTT. Do you believe an expansion of that program and the facilities there would augur well for the future of the Alaska native population?

Mr. PENROD. That is quite a difficult problem to answer in view of the fact that we are limited pretty well there by facilities. As you recall, perhaps maybe you might not know it but that was a reconverted base. It used to be a Navy operating base and we reconverted the buildings. Some of them lend themselves nicely to school operations while others are not the best. We do not have other buildings, no way to enlarge the program there, unless we go out and construct facilities for that purpose.

Mr. ABBOTT. That can be gone into in greater detail and perhaps more intelligently by the committee when some of the testimony of nongovernmental people is heard.

One further question. You referred to this North Star. That is a vessel?

Mr. PENROD. That is our ship that makes the annual supply run. At the present time it is at Point Barrow.

Mr. ABBOTT. And it may perhaps fall, in the view of some, into the category of governmental competition on transportation?

Mr. PENROD. That is true. There are some people that perhaps think that is true. But actually the boat does not operate in any ports or any areas where they can be served by commercial boats. Mr. ABBOTT. You are saying, indirectly perhaps, that it is indispensable to your operations.

Mr. PENROD. That is correct; absolutely indispensable. We would have to have the boat or we could not operate the way we are now. Mr. ABBOTT. That particular question may be further explored, perhaps, after the committee has heard other witnesses.

I believe that is all.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Are there any further questions?

Mr. BARTLETT. Just a couple, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Bartlett.

Mr. BARTLETT. Mr. Penrod, you said the native population numbers about 35,000. Do you know if that is increasing or holding its own?

Mr. PENROD. We have reason to believe at least in the last 3 or 4 years it is increasing, increasing very fast. I am not so sure. We estimate about 35,000. I believe there is a few more than that if a correct count were made. Perhaps nobody knows the exact number. But this year, for instance, most all of our schools are showing a gradual increase over what they have done for the pat 5 or 10 years. For instance, at Point Barrow when we opened school this year we had 45 more students than we had last year and a number of our other schools are showing percentagewise about the same increase. Mr. BARTLETT. Since the native population made no gain for so long, could you guess why it is increasing rapidly now?

Mr. PENROD. I can give you one answer that medical authorities think perhaps is responsible for it. Because of the use of the newer drugs in the health program, the fact they have more hospitals, they have more personnel in the field, and they think that is a general reflection of the type of health program that has been going on for the past 5 or 6 years. We are having more students arriving at their sixth birthday than before.

Mr. BARTLETT. The mortality rate, especially through tuberculosis, was very high previously, was it not?

Mr. PENROD. Yes.

Mr. BARTLETT. It is too high yet, I guess.

Do you know the percentage of native children who graduate from elementary schools who go on to high school?

Mr. PENROD. Last year in the Territory we had approximately 500 boys and girls that were graduated or which completed the eighth grade. I would say that 50 percent of those youngsters did go to school somewhere and another good percent did not because there is no place for them to go.

Mr. BARTLETT. You would say a majority desire to go on to higher education.

Mr. PENROD. Absolutely, a good percentage of them.

Mr. BARTLETT. How would that rate compare, if you know, with the white children?

Mr. PENROD. I would think it would compare very favorably.
Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you.

Mr. ABBOTT. One final question. The committee was advised last year by the Bureau of Indian Affairs that of the overall Bureau of Indian Affairs employees, some 10 to 12 thousand, approximately 55 percent were of Indian or native blood. That is for the Bureau of Indian Affairs operations as a whole.

Mr. PENROD. That is correct.

Mr. ABBOTT. Does that percentage hold true here in the Territory? Mr. PENROD. No, it does not. It is not nearly that great. Perhaps 15 to 20 percent.

Mr. ABBOTT. Is the percentage of employees of native blood increasing here?

Mr. PENROD. Yes. Perhaps I might explain it this way: It might be an exception here in Alaska since now most of our employees are in the field of education. Out of 640 employees we have approxi

mately 350 in the education field, the majority of which are teachers and professional people and the natives up here have not had the opportunity at this point at least where they can prepare themselves for professions and subprofessions and come back and take jobs presently available within the Bureau itself.

Mr. ABBOTT. In certain reservation areas, particularly Montana and North Dakota in the North, and in the Papago, and other tribal areas of the Southwest-there is a problem with respect to whether Indians are citizens of Canada or the United States with respect to these Plains Indian reservations; in the Southwest, whether they are citizens of the United States of Mexico or United States of America. Do you, particularly in the Southeast, have any problem as to citizenship?

Mr. PENROD. None that I know of.

Mr. ABBOTT. They remain where they are?

Mr. PENROD. They are citizens. We think of them as citizens the same as anyone else, if I get your question right.

Mr. ABBOTT. So there is not a question on eligibility as to whether or not they are Canadian citizens or whether they are American citizens?

Mr. PENROD. To my knowledge there is no question.

Mrs. GREEN. What is the compulsory school attendance law here, both in ANS and public school?

Mr. PENROD. I think between the ages of 8 and 16. I say that rather vaguely because that is not a problem with ANS because our native people want to go to school so bad if there is a school available they are generally there for the whole year.

Mr. GREEN. Between 8 and 16.

Mr. PENROD. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. But your census is taken from 6 to 18.

Mr. PENROD. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. You have no requirement for completion of high school, secondary school?

Mr. PENROD. We have none in ANS and I am not sure about the Territory but I believe complete equal to the eighth grade or the. highest grade proffered in the local community.

Mrs. GREEN. Nothing at all for secondary?

Mr. PENROD. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Dawson.

Mr. DAWSON. What is the instant rate on tuberculosis in the service?

Mr. PENROD. I am not sure I can give you that figure. It is a very, high figure.

Mr. DAWSON. Can you give me the mortality rate?

Mr. PENROD. No, sir; I could not with any degree of accuracy.
Mr. DAWSON. Is it on the decrease?

Mr. PENROD. According to the information I have it is. It is on the decrease. It is still a very, very serious problem. In the instance of tuberculosis it is still very high. At least they have a chance now to begin to decrease it.

Mr. DAWSON. The rate is higher farther north, up among the Eskimos, is it not?