From that he gradually enthused, and finally indicated to me that he thought that I was the one that ought to retire, and said that I was not patriotic or loyal to the klan or I would retire. He approached me a little closer and got a little more enthusiastic and said: “If one of you is not out of this contest within 10 days, I am going back to Atlanta, Ga., and issue sealed orders to all local klans in Texas from the imperial palace there that you be eliminated, and that the klan support Mr. Mayfield." I think that is about all that he said. Then I again declined, and I said:" If that is the view you take of it, the conference is over. I will retire." I seemed to be the only one there on my side that night, so that the only thing to do was to withdraw, which I did.

Mr. NICKELS. You mean that you withdrew from the conference? Mr. HENRY. From the conference. Well, I think maybe it ought to be broader than that. I think perhaps I withdrew from the whole thing, but did not know it.

Mr. NICKELS. I see. That is possibly true. Had you had any communication from Doctor Evans or Edward Young Clarke with reference to the senatorial race prior to that meeting?

Mr. HENRY. Oh, yes.

Mr. NICKELS. What was that communication?

Mr. HENRY. A communication came directly to me through the hands of Judge Clark, the great titan of Province No. 3. When I found that the klan was-I think I ought to be allowed to explain these things as I go along, in order that the committee might get my reasons for giving this testimony. When I saw the fight that was being made on the klan and the condition that we were in, I went up to Judge Clark's office he was then the great titan, of the province and told him that I was not willing to continue in the contest for United States Senator under cover as a klansman, and I said, "Unless I can get out into the open and avow my membership and my reasons for belonging to it, I am not willing to continue as a candidate, and I shall retire unless you can get me this permission." I had to have permission to uncover myself as a klansman. Judge Clark immediately turned around and called up the imperial palace at Atlanta, and stated the case to them. Doctor Evans was not there and E. Y. Clarke was ont there, who seemed to be in charge at that time, but they did get some one who talked to him about my request. This official at Atlanta told him that-

Mr. ZUMBRUNN. Just a minute. I submit that that is all hearsay, every bit of it. In fact, this is all hearsay-everything. Mr. HENRY. I can put it another way, then.

Mr. NICKELS. Were you present at the conversation and did you hear what Mr. Clark said to whoever was at the end of the line? Mr. HENRY. I did, every word.

Mr. HANGER. That would all be hearsay as to Mayfield.
Mr. NICKELS. Just wait a little.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness may proceed if there is no objection. Senator KING. It was objected to as irrelevant and as hearsay. The CHAIRMAN. The testimony is undoubtedly hearsay as the witness is narrating it; but in committee hearings we have never followed closely the rule against hearsay evidence. The objection will be overruled and the witness will proceed.

Senator KING. Let me just say this, Mr. Chairman. I think it is hearsay and wholly irrelevant under any issues, as I understand them now. Whatever talk was had between Mr. Clark and somebody in Atlanta would be hearsay, and I fail to see any relevancy in it. But, following the suggestion made by the chair, he may proceed for a while.

Mr. McLEAN. We will refrain from further objection.

Senator KING. I do not mean by that that counsel have not a right to present their objections and state them, if they feel that any testimony is improper or incompetent or irrelevant. I am sure that the chairman and the committee do not want to restrain counsel from making their objections.

Mr. HENRY. I heard Judge Clark's conversation at his end of the line, and as a result of it a telegram came through his hands for me from E. Y. Clarke and H. W. Evans.

Mr. NICKELS. Have you that telegram?

Mr. HENRY. I have not here the original. I do not think it will be disputed. I have made a diligent search and the original has been lost and can not be found, but I have a number of copies of it. The telegram is as follows [reading]:

Judge E. B. CLARK,

Waco, Tex.

LITTLE ROCK, ARK., April 26, 1922.

Your request regarding Henry granted. Good luck and best wishes to you. E. Y. CLARKE AND H. W. EVANS.

Mr. NICKELS. Did you or not have that telegram present at any of the conferences referred to in Dallas? Mr. HENRY. Yes; I had that telegram with me at all of those conferences.

Mr. NICKELS. Was it referred to there in Mr. Mayfield's presence? Mr. HENRY. It was, the original telegram; and I showed the original telegram to Doctor Evans in Mr. Mayfield's headquarters that night, and he pretended to be surprised that his name was signed to it; and I carried the original telegram with me for some time, and all these copies that are in existence came from the original.

Mr. Mayfield saw it that night and heard me discuss it with Doctor Evans. In fact, the three of us were closer together than the chairman, myself, and the Senator from Kentucky here, while we were examining the telegram-the original.

Mr. NICKELS. In any of those conferences, at the Dallas conference, did Doctor Evans in Mr. Mayfield's presence, or not, say anything about you being put into the campaign as a stalking horse, in connection with the telegram?

Mr. HENRY. I reminded Doctor Evans that he had signed it, there that night, and he said, "Yes, I see my name is signed to it; but " he said, "the understanding of the officials was that we needed a stalking horse, and we would make a stalking horse of you by giving you permission to come out in the open and defend the Klan; and that is the reason we gave you the authority, although Mr. Mayfield has been intended as our candidate all the time."

Mr. NICKELS. Now, following the receipt of the telegram, did you or not publicly act upon what you thought was the authority contained in the telegram?

Mr. HENRY. I did. I went to Fort Worth on the night of April 8th and delivered a public address there and produced the telegram and advocated the principles of the Klan, or rather, I stated what I conceived them to be. Afterwards, I made several speeches in advocacy of those principles.

Mr. NICKELS. Did you or not have any conversation

Senator KING. Of course you believed in the principles or you would not have advocated them.

Mr. HENRY. I believed in the principles and do yet; but I am not a klansman. I withdrew, for good reasons, later on. I am out of it.

Mr. NICKELS. Did you or not have any conversation with Mr. Mayfield relative to what you had said in your Fort Worth speech about this telegram?

Mr. HENRY. Will you put that question again?

Mr. NICKELS. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Mayfield referring to your Fort Worth speech, the part of it in which you had read the telegram, the morning after the speech, or at any other time?

Mr. HENRY. The morning after the Fort Worth speech, which was April 8, the evening of April 8, I went down into the dining room of the Texas Hotel and the first man I met was Mr. Mayfield, and he greeted me very cordially, as we always greet each other, and said that he had noticed my speech, noticed that I had produced that telegram; but he said, "I think you made a mistake in stating it was from the Imperial Palace, because the people of Texas do not like the word 'Imperial,' and I think you might just have left that out."

We talked considerably about the subject and about the telegram, and then about a meeting that he was to have with the Grand Dragon, Mr. Brown Harwood, that day.

Mr. NICKELS. I believe that is all. The CHAIRMAN. Take the witness. examine this witness?

Do you

desire to cross

Mr. HANGER. We have no cross-examination of this witness at this time. We have this; as to certain matters we desire to examine the witness further after certain testimony is introduced, if it is.

Senator KING. Mr. Chairman, with respect to the witness, McNamara, who testified yesterday, I should like counsel to keep him here. I want to examine the record in that proceeding and read his testimony there, and I may want to ask him some questions. Mr. NICKELS. He will be here.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, in regard to the witness on the stand, there is no cross-examination at the present time.

Mr. ZUMBRUNN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does counsel for the contestee persist in his desire to cross-examine him later on?

Mr. ZUMBRUNN. I should say that by to-morrow morning we will know.

The CHAIRMAN. What are the plans of the witness? We want to interfere as little as possible with the convenience of witnesses who come here from afar.

Mr. ZUMBRUNN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Will it agree with your plans to be here?

Mr. HENRY. I can be here easily until next Monday. My law partner, Judge Clark, is here with me, and we are both away from our office.

The CHAIRMAN. You are excused for the afternoon, then, and when we adjourn to-day we will meet to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock, so that you will be excused until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Mr. HENRY. If it would accommodate the committee, I would be glad to stay over until Monday and go home Monday afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. If you are going to stay over until Monday and we get through with the other witnesses, we will not have a meeting to-morrow. You might stay around a little while. We do not want to have a meeting of the committee to-morrow if it is not necessary, because we have so much other business on hand. Call your next witness.

Mr. McLEAN. Mr. Chairman, upon reflection, we have no questions to ask Mr. Henry, in view of what he has testified to.

The CHAIRMAN. Then so far as Mr. Henry is concerned, he is free to go when he likes. You are excused, Mr. Henry.

TESTIMONY OF ERWIN J. CLARK

(The witness had been previously sworn by the chairman.) The CHAIRMAN. You were sworn yesterday?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. NICKELS. Your name is Erwin J. Clark?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. NICKELS. Where do you live?

Mr. CLARK. I am living at present in Houston, Tex.; moved there about a year ago from Waco.

Mr. NICKELS. Have you lived at Waco all your life before?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; that is, practically all my life with the exception of the time that I was off at school-college.

Mr. NICKELS. Do you hold any official position in the State of Texas?

Mr. CLARK. Not now.

Mr. NICKELS. Have you?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I was district judge of the seventy-fourth district, and also the nineteenth.

Mr. NICKELS. Do you know Mr. Earle B. Mayfield?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. NICKELS. And Mr. R. L. Henry?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I am associated with Mr. Henry now in the practice of the law.

Senator KING. Are you his partner, you say?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. NICKELS. Mr. Clark, during the year 1922, were you or not a member of the organization known as the Ku-Klux Klan?

Mr. CLARK. I became a member of the Ku-Klux Klan in either October or November of 1921, and remained a member of that organization until the date of my resignation, which I think was December 9, 1922.

Mr. NICKELS. What official positions, if any, did you hold in that organization from time to time?

Mr. CLARK. I held quite a few. I started out in the beginning as chief of the klo klan committee, which was the local executive committee of each klan. Then I became grand kludd of the realm of Texas.

Mr. NICKELS. What does the grand kludd do?

Mr. CLARK. Well, he is supposed to be

Mr. HANGER. We think that it is wholly immaterial.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is any materiality to it, I am relying on counsel to connect it up. I do not see what difference it makes whether this witness was a member of the klan or not.

Mr. HANGER. I did not mean that, Mr. Chairman. I beg your pardon. What I meant was as to the duties of the respective positions. That is what I suggested was immaterial.

The CHAIRMAN. Were those duties you speak of supposed to be secret and not generally known?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think you ought to speak of them, then, unless they become material in this case.

Mr. CLARK. They are generally known now.

The CHAIRMAN. They are generally known?

Mr. CLARK. Yes. There have been a number of exposes of the duties of these officers.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, then; the witness may proceed.

Mr. CLARK. Do you wish me to answer the question as to the duties of the grand kludd?

Mr. NICKELS. I just wanted you to confine it to the United States. Mr. CLARK. He merely presided as a chaplain, and was supposed to open the meeting with prayer and perform such services as pertain to that office.

Mr. NICKELS. What other offices, if any, did you hold in the organization?

Mr. CLARK. I afterward became great titan of Province No. 3, which is very similar to the governorship of a State.

Mr. NICKELS. How many provinces were there in Texas during

1922?

Mr. CLARK. Five in all. The State was divided among those five provinces. Each province had so many counties. I think I had thirty-odd counties in my province.

Mr. NICKELS. Did you hold any other positions?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I became general counsel of the Ku-Klux Klan of the realm of Texas, and held that position up to the date of my resignation.

Senator WATSON. How did you get these positions?

Mr. CLARK. By appointment.

Senator WATSON. By appointment from whom? Take the position of great titan, for instance.

Mr. CLARK. The grand dragon of the realm appoints the great titan.

Senator WATSON. You will have to tell me who the grand dragon is. What has he got to do with it?

Mr. CLARK. He is the governor general of the realm.