Captain FARWELL. I am from Seattle.

You would think that after 35 years of piloting, he would know that the present statute doesn't have a scratch of the pen about whistle signals in the western rivers area, except fog signals. We have put them in the statute for clarity, so that you will have a whistle to blow when you encounter the situation. And in the regulation there isn't a scratch of the pen, again, about blowing these signals only when you can see the other vessel.

On the contrary, the law is plain on both the Great Lakes and. the western rivers that whistles are blown whether the vessels are in sight or not.

Let me read it:

Passing signals.-The passing signals, by the blowing of the whistle, shall be given and answered by pilots in compliance with the rules in this part, when approaching each other; and, wherever possible, the signals shall be given and. answered before the steamers have arrived at a distance of half a mile of each other.

There is no mention of fog there. I am afraid he has been browsing outside his territory, and reading some of the other rules-another argument for uniformity, I will agree.

But I would answer your question directly, sir, by saying that the suggested changes there would completely upset the whole set-up of these whistle signals, one to pass on one side, two on the other, threefor these four situations where you need to call attention, and four or more short blasts as the uniform danger signal; except that on the Great Lakes, where they do things in a big way, they like five or more short blasts for the danger signal. But six would be lawful. in either case.

Mr. THOMPSON. Captain Vinson, of New Orleans, who has a very extensive acquaintance with the western rivers as well as the inland. rivers and the deep waters.

STATEMENT OF CAPT. GEORGE S. VINSON, NEW ORLEANS, LA..

Captain VINSON. I am George S. Vinson. I am a member of the coastal pilots of New Orleans. We pilot all of the seagoing vessels. in and out of the harbor, shift them in and out of the harbor, and around the harbor.

I have been a pilot from the head of navigation on the Mississippi River to the sea on towboats up until 1945. I think I am versed in pilot affairs very well. We are members of the American Pilot's Association, who are represented here in Washington. And if there was any opposition to this thing, I am sure Captain Delano would be here today representing the American Pilot's Association.

I am prepared to answer any questions you would like to ask me. Senator REED. Are you a desk man now, Mr. Vinson?

Captain VINSON. No, sir. I am an actual pilot. I pilot the vessels in and out of the harbor of New Orleans.

Senator REED. But you do not presently work north of New Orleans? Captain VINSON. Not north of the Huey Long Bridge. Our State commission reads "From Southport to the sea," that is, the upper end of the harbor limits in New Orleans.

However, up until 1945, I piloted from Minneapolis, and on the Ohio River from Huntington, W. Va.

Senator REED. The main division of opinion seems to be as to whether or not they should continue the present one-whistle signal or use three whistles. What is your opinion as to that?

Captain VINSON. Well, I will tell you. I am in favor of these rules. I have heard several points discussed on the matter. I have heard a few opinions against this. However, the opinions I have heard have been very vague in that connection, and more or less from the older members of our association, whom I come into contact with every day, and who, most of them, were licensed north of the Huey Long Bridge. In fact, they have all worked up and down the river.

There are a few vague opinions that they do not like this, and they do not like that, because some of them have been doing the same thing for 30 or 40 years, and they feel like they are going to have to get away from the old method of doing things. That is my idea of it. And it is the only actual opposition that I have heard.

Senator MYERS. Then you are here in behalf of this bill as written, with the few changes that the Captain himself suggested? Captain VINSON. That is right.

I will have to apologize, and take issue on the Pennsylvania matter where Captain Smith said they handled so much tonnage up there. New Orleans is a seaport, and I do not think they could come anywhere

near us.

I am going to tell you that I am for this change in the rules. And in fact, I am going to go a little bit further than Captain Farwell on one rule on the central range of two white lights.

I am a stickler for the two lights at 15 feet. Because I have been operating under those conditions, after coming off of towboats, and I have seen what it means to have two lights 15 feet apart. When that light changes, you can tell the exact direction the ship is headed. The minute that light changes, when those two lights are in direct line, that ship is headed direct for you. When she changes off, she is headed one way or the other.

Of course, the argument comes up on the rivers that it might be blinding.

Senator MYERS. Will you indicate the point in the bill to which you have now directed your attention?

Captain VINSON. That is rule No. 7 on page 8, line 14. I think Captain Farwell agreed to change that by cutting out that "at least 15 feet."

Senator REED. And by putting in the word "higher."

Captain VINSON. That is right. Of course, on seagoing vessels which we handle, the speed is much faster than on towboats and they come together much quicker. We have to know that they are going to change their course much faster than an ordinary towboat would. Because a towboat's speed is maybe 2 or 3 miles an hour upstream, or, maybe 10 down, whereas our speed is much greater.

But I think this is really a wonderful thing.

Senator REED. To secure unformity?

Captain VINSON. Well, I think uniformity is a very good thing. We pilot, as I say, all oceangoing vessels. And, as we say down there, "That old Gulf is liable to belch anything."

We may have a seagoing tow or anything. Those fellows are acquainted with inland rules all over the ports of the United States.

We operate on the inland rivers. I think this is a very good thing, in view of the fact that we have to give orders to these officers on these ships.

The officers know the inland rules, but they do not know western rules. In other words, we give an order to steer left, and they think, "Well, maybe according to the rules we should go right."

They hesitate awhile, and they say, "Cap, is that right? Should I go left?"

Well, by that time you might be approaching a vessel pretty close, you know.

I am strictly in favor of the changes.

Senator REED. With the modifications suggested by Captain Farwell?

Senator MYERS. And with that one exception?

Captain VINSON. Yes.

Senator REED. Do you agree with the modifications, but with some reservation on this one?

Captain VINSON. That is right, sir.

Mr. THOMPSON. We have one more witness, Captain Roberts of the Ohio River-Pittsburgh area.

STATEMENT OF CAPT. EUGENE ROBERTS, MASTER AND PILOT,
MISSISSIPPI VALLEY BARGE LINE

Captain ROBERTS. My name is Eugene Roberts. I am a licensed master and pilot. I hold licenses on the Monongahela, Ohio, and Mississippi.

I am employed now as a master and pilot for the Mississippi Barge Line.

I represent myself and the majority of the pilots of the Mississippi
Valley Barge Line, between 30 and 40.

I am a member of local 25 of the national organization.
Senator REED. At Pittsburgh?

Captain ROBERTS. At Pittsburgh. And practically all of our men belong to local 25. I am here to represent them, as well as several hundred other men on the river; that is, the lower river, not the Pittsburgh district.

Senator REED. Well, do you favor this bill?

Captain ROBERTS. I do. I helped to draft this bill, and I do favor it.
Senator REED. Thank you very much.

Is there anybody else who wants to be heard?

Captain HOTTELL. Could I ask one question for the opposition?
Senator MYERS. You can have a bit of rebuttal, of course.

Captain HOTTELL. Since some of our Pittsburgh friends, belonging to harbor 25, are speaking for the bill, I might add that we have about 12 or 14 pilots in the Pittsburgh area that belong to that, who pilot to New Orleans, Memphis, and Louisville, who are not present. They do not pilot to the Pittsburgh area only. Every pilot of Jones & Laughlin Steel Corp. is against these changes. I am not speaking for them, but I work with them, and I hear their views.

We have pilots in the Mississippi River where I am acquainted, that do not live in Pittsburgh.

1

For instance, I will use the name Elmer Goode. He is about my age. He is against this bill. He lives at this present moment in New Orleans, and he is a St. Louis and New Orleans pilot.

We have another man in New Orleans from Cairo, Skidmore. He is against the changes in this bill. I only use the names of men I have talked to in person.

Senator MYERS. Let me ask you a question: How many members are there in local 25?

Captain HOTTELL. I think Captain Smith could answer that better than I. I think there are about 250.

Senator MYERS. About 250?

Captain HOTTELL. Yes, sir.

Senator MYERS. And are you and Captain Smith speaking for the organization, or are you giving this committee the benefit of your own individual views?

Captain HOTTELL. I am only speaking for myself, as I said.

Senator MYERS. What about Captain Smith?

Captain HOTTELL. I will let him answer that. I think he is speaking for himself, too.

Captain CLARK. Two of the gentlemen he just mentioned, Capt. Elmer Goode and Capt. Billy Skidmore, are members of our organization. And as far as Captain Skidmore is concerned, I had a very long talk with him on this situation about 2 or 3 weeks ago, and he does favor it; with the qualifications that we have put on record as approving here.

Now, where the information came from that he belongs to harbor 25, I don't know.

Captain HOTTELL. I didn't say that.

Captain CLARK. However, he is a member of our organization, and he is one of the many men I have talked to in regard to this situation. And with the amendments as we have them now, he does favor this.

Now, I don't like to dispute anybody's word, but that is what he told me. And we had a very long talk about it, because he is one of our influential members, and was, this last term, one of our board of directors. He is not now, but he is one of the men that I made a special trip to New Orleans to talk to.

There is one other thing I would like to mention. I believe it was Captain Smith who said that under the present rules there is no whistle signal at present that begins with a short whistle.

I would like to ask at this time just what a passing signal at present does begin with. What is a passing signal, Captain Smith?

Captain SMITH. According to the law, the passing signal is one short blast. It is agreed among all of the pilots that that "short" should be taken from that rule.

There has been no opposition to that.

I hope that the Senators will realize that the Pittsburgh pilots have not gone against all of these changes. There are some of these changes that we have gone along with 100 percent. But as I tried to point out, where we have uniformity now, and they have tried to change that, we have been against the change.

Captain HAYNES. I want to say that more than a year ago I talked to Captain Smith personally about everything in here, and especially

the three whistles. He agreed with 75 or 80 percent at that time, and he knew that we were going to present this bill.

That was more than a year ago.

There is one more thing I would like to add that I feel has not been brought out very clearly here. That is that under our existing laws the pilots on the Mississippi and Monongahela Rivers and the Allegheny River violate the law every time they blow a passing signal.

Now, we have actually run tests on that to see if that is true, and we have found that it is. In other words, a passing signal is 1 second in duration.

We took stop watches and timed them, and 8 to 20 seconds' duration is the way they are blowing them.

The purpose here is to try to standardize this thing all the way through, so that there will be four signals only.

Thank you, sir.

Senator REED. Does anybody else want to be heard?

Then the hearing on this bill will be closed, and the committee will take it under consideration and make a report as soon as we can. Thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 11:55 a. m., hearing in the above-entitled matter was closed.)