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H. OF R.]

Defeat of General St. Clair.

thought justice to them and to the public required
that they should be allowed to make their defence
in the face of the world. Will not precluding them
look like a wish to smother all further inquiry
into the matter?

688

[NOVEMBER, 1792.

would take up the subject early in the present session, precluded a recommitment; he was therefore opposed to the motion.

completed it appeared to him the House was not prepared to take one step in the matter.

Mr. BOUDINOT was in favor of a recommitment; Mr. BALDWIN was in favor of recommitting; he ward, the House ought to wait till that is receivhe said, if there is new evidence to be brought forsaid it was the most eligible mode, and was con-ed and reported at the Clerk's table; and this he sonant to the practice of the House. Mr. MADISON remarked, that it had been saida select committee; till the whole testimony is conceived ought to be done in the usual way, by a disposition was discovered to smother inquiry. In reply he observed that, if he wished to prevent a thorough investigation, he should be in favor of the whole subject being undertaken by the House; because, he observed, that if a select committee of a few members took seven weeks to form an in-vestigation of facts in the first instance? He becomplete report, it must appear evident that so large a body as this House could never get through the matter. He further observed, that the same reason existed for referring the residue of the evidence to a select committee as induced the measure in the first instance.

to the case of the contested election. He inquired Mr. MADISON replied to Mr. GERRY's allusion of him whether the House itself went into an inlieved he would not say they did. With respect to the memorials, he inquired, whether, if they had been presented at the time of the investigation of the subject by the select committee, they would not have been referred to the committee? reason exists for referring them to a select comIf they would then have been referred, the same mittee at the present time.

Mr. FITZSIMONS said he was at first in favor of a recommitment, but on further consideration he was convinced the House would be able to get through the subject in a shorter time than a select ment would tend to a saving of time; the comMr. LAURANCE was of opinion that a recommitcommittee. He added several other reasons which mittee will not be obliged to go over the same induced him to be in favor of the House proceed-ground again that has already been explored; all ing with the report.

new testimony which will be adduced. He hoped, they will be obliged to do is, to investigate the therefore, that the motion would prevail.

Mr. GILES said, that the proceedings of the com

have attended all the time, had they seen proper. They attended but once, and then appeared extremely anxious to get away to attend to their offices. The committee would have been extremely glad to have had those gentlemen present oftener, and to receive all the information they could give, and supposed they had done it.

Mr. GERRY said it appeared to him that the only question seemed to be, whether the House or the select committee shall establish the facts. If these facts are established by the committee,mittee were public, and that the Secretaries could would it give equal satisfaction as if they were established by the House? He conceived it would not; but, should the result be a conviction on the part of the House that some of the officers are culpable, will the House rest an impeachment on the report of the committee? He conceived the House ought to found their decisions on facts ascertained by themselves. It has been said there is no difference between the House and the com- gentlemen would recur to the proceedings of the Mr. GERRY replied to Mr. MADISON. He said, if mittee. If this is the case, does it not imply a House on the contested election, they will find censure by the House on certain characters? He that the House expressly reserved to itself the thought it did. It therefore becomes the House right of substantiating the facts, which should apto discuss the report, that it may be determined pear from an examination of the depositions, taken on what footing it stands. If, in the case of a con- in conformity to the resolutions of the House; tested election the House revolted from the idea and here he adverted to the mode pointed out by of submitting their judgment to facts substantiated the House in taking those depositions. The adby a committee, the case before us is of unspeak-verse party was to be summoned to attend to the ably greater magnitude. For these, and several other reasons, he hoped the report would not be

recommitted.

Mr. WILLIAMSON was in favor of the motion for recommitting; he supported his opinion by the uniform practice of the House, which in every case where new evidence was adduced, always provided that the new evidence should be examined by the same committee, who had originally brought in the report. He said if this mode was departed from, we should find no committee would bring forward a state of facts in future. He thought it was not treating the committee with proper candor to decide on their report in its present situation.

Mr. SYLVESTER observed, that the resolution of the House at the close of the last session, that they

taking them; but in this report it appears that
ex parte evidence has been admitted as the foun-
made.
dation on which some of the decisions have been

commitment. He observed that the matter, in Mr. MURRAY supported the motion for a reits present state, was so incomplete that he could not see how the House could proceed upon it. One part of the evidence only is finished, and the report is made on that evidence. Now, we are told new testimony is offered; let the whole be brought into view at once, and then the House will be in a situation to judge.

Mr. PAGE was in favor of a further commitmittee who made the report, or to a new comment of the subject; but whether to the committee, he should not take upon him to say. With

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respect to the admission of any Head of a Department to the bar of this House, except in case of an impeachment, he would never consent to it. It would be a precedent of a most dangerous nature, tending to a destruction of all freedom of inquiry by committees.

THURSDAY, November 15.

[H. of R.

Another member, to wit: THEODORE SEdgWICK, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Mr. GOODHUE, from the committee appointed, presented a bill concerning the registering and reMr. FINDLEY observed, that the committee cording of ships or vessels: which was received, wished that Mr. Hodgdon should have been pre-read twice, and committed. sent, but he did not make his appearance; the committee therefore proceeded on the testimony they had, and as there is now new evidence brought forward, he thought it was proper that the report should be recommitted. As one of the committee, he should have no objections to such alterations as might appear proper on further and more complete investigation of the matter.

Mr. STEELE called for the reading of a clause in the memorial of the Secretary of War, which states that the committee had drawn conclusions from ex parte evidence. This being read, Mr. STEELE remarked on the want of candor towards the committee, which had been shown by some of the members in the course of their observations. He then adverted to the above clause respecting ex parte evidence, and observed that, with respect to the Secretary of War, it was not true that the committee had proceeded on ex parte evidence; that officer, said he, was notified of the meetings of the committee; he attended those meetings; he furnished the committee with papers and documents, &c.; and further, he was requested to detain officers in town whose testimony was necessary in the matter, and that he complained of some of those officers being detained by the delays of the committee from the recruiting service. With respect to Mr. Hodgdon the same cannot be said, as he was not then in the country.

Mr. STEELE then concluded by some additional remarks on the indelicacy manifested by some gentlemen in their treatment of the committee, and observed that he did not apply it to himself personally, but as it respected the committee at large, he thought proper to express the contempt which he conceived it merited.

Mr. DAYTON replied to Mr. STEELE. He repeated the substance of his original remarks on the report, and added, that in the course of the discussion he should attempt to show that the deductions made in several parts of the report were false. Mr. D. added, that whatever the gentleman last speaking might say, as one of the committee who signed the report, he was certainly implicated in whatever censure it merited.

The question for a recommitment was then agreed to, 30 to 22. And it was accordingly

Resolved, That the Committee of the Whole House, to whom was committed the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the said report, together with the documents relating thereto, including the Letter of the Secretary of War, and the memorial of Samuel Hodgdon, be recommitted to Mr. FITZSIMONS, Mr. GILES, Mr. STEELE, Mr. CLARK, and Mr. FINDLEY.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a Letter from the Secretary of War, accompanying an extract of a letter to him, from James Seagrove, temporary agent to the Creek Indians, dated the 28th ultimo, containing further information relative to Indian affairs in the Southern department; which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

FRIDAY, November 16.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate have passed a bill, entitled "An act regulating Foreign Coins, and for other purposes;" to which they desire the concurrence of this House. The message also communicated a Letter from Messrs. Hebert & Co., of the city of Paris, addressed to the Congress of the United States, stating certain propositions for the purchase of a quantity of vacant lands, the property of the United States.

The Letter referred to in the said Message was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

The bill sent from the Senate, entitled "An act regulating Foreign Coins, and for other purposes," was read the first time.

Ordered, That Mr. VENABLE and Mr. STEELE be added to the committee appointed to take into consideration that part of the PRESIDENT'S Speech which relates to the transmission of newspapers, and report whether any, and what, alterations may be necessary in the act passed last session for the regulation of the Post Office.

The House resumed the reading of the papers communicated by the Secretary of War on the 7th instant, relative to the Indians Northwest and South of the River Ohio, and to the troops in the service of the United States, and made a farther progress therein.

MONDAY, November 19.

Another member, to wit: JOHN FRANCIS MERCER, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

The bill sent from the Senate entitled "An act regulating Foreign Coins, and for other purposes," was read the second time, and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a Letter and Report from the Commissioners appointed by the act entitled "An act making provision for the. reduction of the Public Debt, 'stating the amount of the purchases which have been made of the Public Debt, in pursuance of the powers vested in them by the said act;" which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

A memorial and address from the people called

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Quakers, from their several religious societies in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, was presented to the House and read, praying that Congress will adopt such measures as, in their wisdom, may be deemed salutary and effectual for securing peace and friendship with the original holders of this land.

Ordered, That the said memorial and address do lie on the table.

[NOVEMBER, 1792.

the American vessel and claimed the three seamen; he also claimed wages for them. Captain Goffigan refused to deliver the men, and declared with truth that nothing was due them. Captain Wickham took the men by force, and by the same regulation he went into the hold, and took as much of the cargo as he thought fit, under the cover of substitute for wages. Captain Goffigan complained of this violence and robbery to Mr. Clarkson, who A petition of Thomas Screven, executor of is Governor of the Province. The Governor reBrigadier General James Screven, deceased, was plied, that he should have done the same thing, presented to the House and read, praying the re-and that he had orders from his superiors so to act newal of sundry Continental Loan Office certificates, the property of the said deceased, which were burnt, or otherwise destroyed by the enemy, during the late war.

Ordered, That the said petition be referred to the consideration of the Committee of the Whole House, to whom is committed the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury respecting lost and destroyed certificates.

Ordered, That the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury concerning marine hospitals, which was made on the 17th of April last, together with the report of a committee thereupon, which was made on the 28th of the same month, be referred to the committee last appointed.

PROTECTION TO AMERICAN COMMERCE. Mr. WILLIAMSON moved that a committee be appointed to prepare and bring in a bill or bills for promoting commerce, by the increase of American seamen. In moving the above, Mr. W. addressed the House as follows:

Much of your time during the present session, Mr. SPEAKER, will be employed in deliberating upon the several important subjects that have been recommended to us by the PRESIDENT. The numerous and lengthy bills that you inherit from the last session, must also demand a considerable portion of your time. Observing so much interesting and weighty business, from which you cannot turn aside, it is with some reluctance that I bespeak the attention of the House, while I submit to their consideration another subject of some importance: for it is a subject, unless I am mistaken, that interests the merchant and the planter.

in such cases.

The ship Illustrious President, belonging to Virginia, commanded by Captain Butler, touched some time ago at Maderia, in her passage to the East Indies. The British frigate Hyena, commanded by Captain Hargood, lay at that time in the road. Seven of Captain Butler's sailors being British subjects, Captain Hargood sent to take them by force from on board the American ship, and he would have done so, had not the Governor of the Island, remembering what he owed to the honor of his nation and to every ship under his protection, interrupted his authority.

The ship Fame belonging to Philadelphia, commanded by Walter Sims, on her way to the East Indies, lately touched at Table Bay, at the Cape of Good Hope. Captain Blith, who commanded a ship of twenty guns, then lay in the road. One of Captain Sim's sailors, a native of Scotland, offered his service to Captain Blith, calling himself a British subject. That very man in Philadelphia had taken the oath of allegiance to the United States; but the British claim was best, for Captain Blith's ship was strongest. He took the man, sent an officer on board the American ship, who took the liberty of opening the after hatch, searching the hold and looking out a chest and clothes. Captain Blith justified these acts of violence, by saying, that he had printed instructions to take all who called themselves British subjects.

These are a few out of the numberless cases in which our ships have been robbed of their seamen, and they are samples of the manner in which we shall be constantly treated, while we depend on foreigners to navigate our ships. If these cases Measures have already been taken by Congress, had terminated in threats and abusive language, to for increasing the number of our shipping; but no which our flag is too much accustomed, it might effectual and general measure has been adopted have been questioned, whether the nation of the for increasing the number of native American sea-offending party was to blame. When you are told men. Every gentleman in my hearing knows, that there are always a considerable number of foreigners employed on board American vessels; but none of us could have expected, and some of us may not have heard of the injury and insults to which our commerce has been exposed, from having British seamen on board our ships.

A schooner called the David and George, belonging to Portsmouth, in Virginia, and commanded by Captain Goffigan, lately touched at Sierra Leone, on the coast of Africa; she was navigated by eleven persons. Three of that number who had been on shore, informed Captain Wickham who commanded an armed vessel, that they were British subjects. Captain Wickham went on board

by one officer and another, that he is instructed to distress our trade, we should, if possible, deprive them of the present excuse. Is it not our business to inquire into the cause of this strange conduct? By a vitiated passion for British goods, we are universally clothed in the manufactures of that nation. Our debts increase every year, and we labor to make her rich, while we are becoming poor. We pour our treasures into her lap more than any other nation under the sun. Observe the rewards! I say nothing about her measures on our Western Frontier; but our trading ships are boarded and plundered at discretion by her ships of war; and yet, Great Britain, whose commerce we cherish, is the only nation that treats us in this

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manner. Perhaps it is conjectured, that Americans are of that species of animals whose favor is increased by rough treatment. Be this as it may, it is our duty to consider of the safest and surest mode of extending our commerce. After we have been told, that an American vessel having sailors on board, who chance to have been born in the British dominion, is subject to be deprived of her hands, robbed of her property, and turned adrift without help, it can hardly be necessary to adduce other arguments in favor of native American seamen; but other strong and conclusive arguments in favor of the measure present themselves. The merchants' property in critical situations, or in distant and obscure parts of the world, is always most safe when his ship is navigated by men who uniformly strive to return to their native home, and whose hopes and happiness centre in that country to which their ship belongs. The crew of a French brig some weeks ago, murdered their captain and mate on our coast; that misfortune, in all probability, would not have happened, if the seamen had been natives of France. Two of them only were of that Kingdom. Is it necessary to add, that a powerful body of seamen, at some future day, may save us from the vast expense and danger of a standing army? Upon this single argument of native seamen we might rest the question. It needs neither support nor illustration. I shall, therefore, presume, that it is our duty as soon as possible, to provide for the daily operations of pride or injustice, by furnishing the merchant with seamen, of whom he cannot be robbed, except by open declaration of war. With seamen in whom he can trust-with men, who actuated by those passions which are inseparable from the human breast, the pride of nation, and the love of country, may serve him in every part of the world. To furnish the nation with a safe and strong bulwark against foreign tyranny and invasion."

[H. OF R.

great demand for provisions to be exported, will not fail to produce abundance of provisions in the country..

The simple calls of nature, the mere necessity of supporting life, is not a sufficient spring to active industry; it seldom gives birth to persevering diligence. Artificial wants and passions must come to our assistance, before we can shake off the indolence of nature, and apply ourselves steadily to work. Let a man discover that industry will procure him the luxuries as well as the necessaries of life, and he will not fail to work. Let the farmer see a ready market for all the produce that is not consumed by his family, and he will commonly have something to sell; let no such market present itself, and his family will frequently suffer from the want of necessaries. Every man who considers the effects of frequent and long embargoes, must discover that they generally produce a scarcity of provisions. The late war operated in this country as an embargo. What was the effect? The spirit of agriculture became torpid; the plow slept in the furrow. Let us for a moment cast an eye on the history of cities and nations. They have risen into greatness or sunk into obscurity, according to the measure of their commerce. By the creative power of foreign commerce, Palmyra and Alexandria arose out of sandy deserts, and Venice out of the sea. By the same power we have seen nations become wealthy and numerous.

number of apprentices, native citizens of the United States, according to their several burdens. I have mentioned ninety per cent., because it may be proper that a small portion of this duty should pass to a separate account that shall presently be mentioned. The amount of domestic tonnage for the last year was $504,900, at six cents per ton, this giving $30,294; hence it will follow, that one additional cent per ton would produce $5,049. The amount is small, perhaps it should be doubled. .

If we agree that industry, population, and wealth, are promoted by foreign commerce, it will cer tainly be granted that our commerce should be managed by native citizens. In order to secure a sufficient number of seamen, we should make it the interest of every master or owner of a vessel to have one or more apprentices. For this purpose, it may be proper to impose a small additional duty of tonnage on every American bottom, perhaps one cent per ton may be sufficient. A drawThis conclusion, however, is drawn upon the back of ninety per cent of this duty may be allowsupposition, that foreign commerce should be en-ed, to such vessels as are navigated by a certain couraged; but, I am aware that objections have been made to every measure that has foreign commerce for its object, and similar objections would fall with additional weight against any plan for supporting foreign commerce by native seamen. We are told, that in a country where land is plenty and the inhabitants few; where little progress is made in cultivating the soil, the Legislature should consider agriculture as the primary object of their attention. This is a position that will not be disputed, since we know that the hope of our species must prosper or perish; that our numbers must be many or few, according as the soil is well or ill cultivated; according to the abundance or scarcity of provisions. These facts being granted, we are only to inquire, what are the most certain and effectual means of promoting agriculture? To this I reply, that we can promote agriculture by extending foreign commerce, and by no other direct means whatever. Bounties can never prove effectual; they may serve to introduce a foreign plant, but they cannot produce industry nor plenty. The general demand for any article never fails to increase the manufacture of that article. The

While I am recommending the increase of American seamen, I should not do justice to my own feelings, if I did not recommend another measure that is equally connected with commerce. I mean a general provision for sick and infirm seamen. I do not contemplate the building of two or three great houses in some of our principal cities; houses that might administer to the vanity of a nation, rather than to the general comfort of sick and infirm sailors. I would consult the cause of humanity, not of pride.

Wherever it is probable that sailors may be sick, there I would make provision for their support and comfort. Hospitals should be erected, or lodgings

H. OF R.]

The Public Debt.

hired, as the case may be, at every port of entry in the United States for sick and infirm seamen, where they may be properly attended during their several indispositions. The money to be collected at the several ports as hospital money, should be expended at such port, and at no other place, under the care of such persons as may be described for that purpose. Let a small deduction be made from the wages of every seaman, to be paid at the several ports of entry for their use. I have mentioned a deduction from their wages, because this mode of raising hospital money would probably be most acceptable, and because it is certainly the most equitable tax that can be levied.

It will readily be perceived, that the two subjects I have mentioned are nearly allied. attempt to increase the number of native seamen While we for the extension of commerce and general prosperity of agriculture, we should be solicitous to protect and cherish this useful class of our fellowcitizens. The direct tendency of the additional tonnage, is to increase the number of apprentices, and if this measure should have the desired effect, the greater part of that duty will be discharged in drawbacks. A small portion of the duty will be retained according to the plan mentioned, and some owners, less careful, will occasionally pay the whole duty. Perhaps the product of the additional cent may be $1,000 per annum. lance may very properly be applied towards a fund This bafor sick and infirm seamen. being contingent, and at most very inadequate to This fund, however, the general use of seamen, it may be necessary to make a small stoppage of their wages as a uniform and certain fund for the support of those very persons when they are sick.

696

[NOVEMBER, 1792.

the Public Debt, Mr. FITZSIMONS offered a resolution to the following purport:

measures for the reduction of so much of the public "Resolved, As the opinion of this Committee, that debt as the United States have a right to redeem, ought to be adopted; and that the Secretary of the Treasury be directed to report a plan for the purpose."

could agree to the motion just made. The exact Mr. MADISON wished for information before he state of our finances he conceived necessary to be well known before measures were taken for the reduction of the debt. The House of Representatives had already unequivocally expressed their PRESIDENT's Speech; but it was not time, he consentiments on the subject, in their answer to the ceived, for the adoption of measures with a view until the information on which those measures to realize what appeared to be the general wish, were to be grounded was received.

adopted, would call forth the information necessa-
Mr. FITZSIMONS argued, that the motion, if
ry to ground a final measure upon. The recom-
mendation from the PRESIDENT was strong, and
the answer of the House as positive; no differ-
ence of opinion, he therefore supposed, could exist
United States had paid a valuable consideration
as to the propriety of reducing the debt. The
for the right of reducing it, and the first opportu-
best.
nity of making use of that right, he conceived the

tion would come in of course.
Mr. WILLIAMSON was of opinion that informa-
he suggested, no doubt was acquainted with the
situation of the revenue, when he recommended
The PRESIDENT,
the reduction of the debt at the present time. He
as his opinion, that our public debt was our most
should be in favor of the motion. He declared it
dangerous enemy; he wished it could be reduced
twice as fast; the irredeemable quality of part of
it he much disliked.

Such are the outlines of two bills that I would recommend to the attention of this House. If I have viewed these subjects in a more serious light; if I have been more anxious than other members to bring them before the House, the situation of my constituents, and the laws of our State, will be that information should form the basis of any proMr. MADISON again expressed it as his opinion my excuse. That part of North Carolina in which vision for the reduction of the debt. If the moI live, abounds in navigable waters, many of my tion was carried, information no doubt could be fellow-citizens are owners of vessels, and many obtained before the final adoption of any measure; go to sea.

The Legislature of North Carolina, attentive to the wants and desires of the people, have lately passed a law to raise money by a tax on the wages of seamen, for the support of sick and infirm seaThis is a sufficient proof of their desire to cherish commerce, and give particular assistance to those useful members of the community.

men.

I shall now take the liberty of moving that committees may be appointed to bring in bills for the purposes mentioned.

Mr. WILLIAMSON, Mr, LAURANCE, Mr. GOODHUE, Mr. BENJAMIN BOURNE, and Mr. BARNWELL, were appointed to prepare and bring in the same.

THE PUBLIC DEBT.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House on the Speech of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to both Houses of Congress:

On that part which relates to the reduction of

information the groundwork of any proceeding on but he insisted on the necessity of making that so important a subject.

of more importance than that involved in the moMr. MERCER.-No question, he conceived, was tion before the House. He wished for time to make up his mind on it. It involved one question House, and which was decided but by a small which had occasioned very warm debate in the majority: he alluded to the reference made last conceived it improper to commit to any man what session to the Secretary of the Treasury. He he was bound himself to do. He conceived the power of the House to originate plans of finance, to lay new burdens on the people intrusted to As to the main object of the motion, he rather them by their constituents, as incommunicable. doubted the propriety of adopting, at present, a premature system for the reduction of the public situation. A fuller representation will shortly debt. The House, he said, stood in a very delicate

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