thoroughly examined, and every member satisfied that the sums called for were necessary before they were appropriated. The gentleman from Virginia, who first objected to the bill, only took a comparative view of the sum total of former appropriations and of that contemplated by the bill. He wished the gentleman would turn to the particulars, and view the variety and nature of the calls on the Treasury for 1792. He noticed the mention that had been made of the increased | sums called for, for the contingent expenses of the Senate, and said that, if the whole of this was not expended, the remainder would lay in the Treasury, and such parts as were expended must be accounted for by the proper officer to the proper office where it was open to inspection. Mr. SMITH (S. C.) wished that the gentleman from Virginia, to satisfy his doubts respecting the expenditure of former appropriations, would take the trouble of examining the accounts of the Treasurer, which had already been lying on the table for three weeks. He mentioned some of the objects that occurred at the present session, and which called for an increase of the sum to be appropriated. Among these he enumerated the increase of our army in consequence of the attacks on our frontiers, the expense incurred in taking the census, the additional claims on Government, and the expense of the Government of the Southwestern Territory. He wished the gentleman to state the particular parts of the bill he objected to. If he did this, the attention of the committee would be turned to one point, and progress might be made in the business. [DECEMBER, 1791. handed in, was printed for the use of the House, and a copy put into the hands of each member, so that they had a full opportunity of examining it. The bill now before the committee had been reported two weeks since; so that, from the time of the bill's being reported, the business had not been precipitated. Gentlemen knew the subject was before them, and if they had examined into it, their minds would be made up, because there were materials on which their opinions could be formed, Relative to the two particulars adverted to, first the increased estimate of the Secretary of the Senate, he observed, that it was impossible for any member of the committee positively to declare that the additional sum of one thousand five hundred dollars to the former allowance was too much. With respect to the estimate of the Clerk of the House, it was particular, it was easily examined, and the Committee of the Whole were competent to determine whether any items of it appeared unreasonable. The contingencies in the War Department, in the Comptroller's office, &c., if they were higher than heretofore, it should be considered that rents are raised, and wood higher, and an allowance should therefore be made. He was sorry to hear it said that the committee had not done their duty. The information called for, he repeated, was on the table. It was impossible for the committee to say the exact quantity of wood, paper, &c., necessary for the Houses-something must be left to the honor and integrity of the persons intrusted with making the purchase of these articles. Mr. GERRY said, that the committee were directed to report a bill pursuant to the estimate made, and their duty had no relation to the examination of the last year's expenditure. Yet he conceived it the duty of the House to make some such inquiry, and he hoped the committee would Mr. STEELE thought the objections made by the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. PARKER) proper; and fully agreed in the propriety of checking the progress of the bill until the information called for by that gentleman could be obtained. The intention, he conceived, in appointing a select com-rise to give time to collect this information. He mittee was, that they should xamine the esti- wished the House would make it a rule that every mates on which the appropriation bill was to be Executive should, at each session, lay before the founded. He wished to know how it happened House an account of the expenditure of all the that the Secretary of the Senate, for contingent money passing through their hands. The people expenses of that body, should call for four thou-depended on their Representatives for a scrutiny sand five hundred dollars, when the Clerk of the into the expenditure of the public money. He House of Representatives only called for five wished, at present, that a committee should be thousand five hundred dollars, though the last appointed to examine into the expenditure of all mentioned body is so much more numerous than former appropriations, and that a rule should be the first. He was of opinion that the annual con- established to apply for the future, and procure tingent expenses of the Auditor's and Comptrol-regular accounts from every branch of the Exeler's offices must now be well known from expe-cutive Department. The effect of this, in the rience, and that supposition was no longer proper in estimating the sums necessary to be apppropriated for those objects. He conceived that the last year's expenses being inquired into, would give the sum necessary for the next. He wished to depend on the select committee for every information of this kind; and, if they were not able to give it, he conceived they had not done their duty. Mr. LAURANCE supposed it was the duty of members to inform themselves on every subject that came before the House. In this instance, want of time could not be pleaded in excuse for a neglect of this duty. The estimate of the Secretary of the Treasury had early in the session been end, would be to increase the confidence of the people in those officers, by bringing the rectitude of their official conduct to full evidence, and would be the best guard against the embezzlement of public money, should we be less fortunate in future in the choice of Executive officers. If some such plan as this was not adopted, the Representatives would have no more idea of the money expended than the people themselves, and the people no more than if their officers were in the moon. He moved that the committee rise. Mr. BOUDINOT hoped the committee would not rise until some more notice had been taken of the objections of the gentleman from Virginia. His DECEMBER, 1791.] Appropriation Bill. [H. OF R. charges were to the bill in general, and were fifty per cent. in the sums to be appropriated now. founded upon the difference between the sum total If an increase in the appropriations for the Deof the appropriation contemplated in the bill, and partment of War, from good reasons, was necesthat of former appropriations, a difference of about sary, this was no reason why the contingent exfour hundred thousand dollars. To account for penses of the Senate should increase. He hoped this difference he wished the gentleman would the passage of the bill would not be precipitated, turn his attention to the Report of the Secretary and was of opinion that information should be of the Treasury; in which he would find a num- previously obtained. He approved of the idea ber of extraordinary calls for considerable appro- suggested by Mr. GERRY, to call on Executive priations. A considerable sum to the King of officers at stated times for their accounts. It had France; a large sum, the balance of an old ac-been said that members could seek for information count due Oliver Pollock; one hundred and twenty at their offices; he thought it more proper that thousand dollars, a deficiency in last year's appro- the officers should be called upon to bring their priation; considerable expenses in consequence of accounts to the House. He did not like the mode an increase of our army for the defence of the pointed out; and, indeed, even supposing the memPennsylvania and Virginia frontiers. He men-bers had neglected a duty, yet he hoped further tioned that if the sums called for to provide for time would not be refused. He was for the comthese objects, and a few more which he enume-mittee's rising. rated, were added together, they would be found to make up nearly the difference complained of. This explanation he considered as necessary, lest it should be imagined that our regular annual expenses had increased in the sum of four hundred thousand dollars. These extraordinary expenses were peculiar to the ensuing year, and could not be reckoned as an increase to the annual expenses of the Government of the United States. Mr. BARNWELL was of opinion that the Report of the Treasurer, containing a full account of the receipt and expenditure of all the public money, was the fullest information that need be received. Neither the members of the House, nor a committee of it, could possibly examine into the minutia and items of every public account. The Comptroller, Treasurer, and Register, were the proper officers to do this. If any member of the House Mr. STEELE wished the members of the select was dissatisfied with any particular charge recommittee would declare whether they had exa-ceived at the Treasury, he could, either as an mined the items of the particular estimates laid individual, call and examine into its propriety, or before them. He was willing to rely on their opin-on the floor of the House call for the information ion of them to make up his own mind. he wanted to satisfy his mind. Mr. BALDWIN said, the committee were only ap- Mr. FITZSIMONS was against the committee's pointed to bring in a bill in conformity to the esti-rising. Many of the items in the appropriation mates laid before the House. He conceived that, bill were right without doubt, and papers were on as every member had a right to examine the do- the table to explain the propriety of others. Salacuments on which those estimates were founded, ries would not be disputed. If clerks were unthat they would take the necessary steps to ac-employed at the offices, they would not be paid. quire information. For his own part, he had been induced for this purpose to call at the Register's office. He had procured from the Register such papers (making himself personally responsible for their safety) as threw sufficient light upon it to satisfy his mind; those papers were on the table and open to the inspection of every member. The contemplated appropriations for contingent and incidental expenses depended on estimates which were before the committee; and if any are thought too considerable, motions may be made to reduce them; but to rise now would be mere waste of time. He enumerated some of the objects of expense which called for a larger appropriation this year, to remove the general objections of the gentleman from Virginia. Mr. GILES was of opinion that the committee had done their duty, and had acted in conformity to the resolution of the House. He mentioned Mr. MADISON Considered the present a good ophis being one of a small minority against that reso-portunity to determine how far the House could lution, when it was under consideration. At that go into an examination of the accounts of public time he was of opinion that some previous exami- officers. It was true, that the Representatives of nation was necessary. He adverted to the esti- the people were the guardians of the public momate from the Secretary of the Senate. That ney, and consequently it was their duty to satisfy officer called for four thousand five hundred dol- themselves as far as possible of the sources from lars, for contingent expenses, though it did not which money flowed into the Treasury-how that appear that there was a deficiency in the sum of money was applied-under what authority-and three thousand dollars granted last year. The to inquire, at different times, what balance actuonly reason that was given for an increase of fifty ally remained in the Treasury. This, he conper cent. was, the increased price of the articles ceived, could best be done by appointing a comto be purchased. He was against allowing an un-mittee periodically to examine the books of the necessary latitude in appropriations. It would Treasurer, see what balance appeared on the face generally be found that the expenditures would of them, and inquire whether that balance was come up very near to the sum appropriated; and really in the Treasury. He mentioned the pracif three thousand dollars were sufficient last year, tice of the former Congress, to appoint four comit remained to be determined whether the in-mittees to inspect the operations of the four Decreased price of articles warranted an increase of partments under them. These Departments, H. OF R.] Appropriation Bill. [DECEMBER, 1791. however, now belonged more to the Executive; from the Treasurer of the United States, accombut still, as the Representatives were, by the Con-panying his account of receipts and expenditures stitution, made the guardians of the public money, of the public moneys, between the first of July, they had a right, and it was their duty, to inspect and the thirtieth of September, one thousand seven the operations of the Treasury Department. This hundred and ninety-one; which were read, and right could not be conveniently exercised, in his ordered to lie on the table. opinion, by the whole body, but it should be done Mr. BENSON laid on the table a resolution for by a detachment from it, who would report the the appointment of a committee to join a commitnecessary information. This mode of proceeding tee of the Senate, to consider and report the most was usual. He instanced the practice of the Bri-eligible manner of carrying into effect a former tish House of Commons, and of several State Le-resolution of Congress respecting the erection of gislatures. Even if these inquiries procured no an Equestrian Statue, in honor of General WASHmore information than was obtained by means of INGTON. reports from the different officers of Government, yet being made by the immediate Representatives APPROPRIATION BILL. tion bill-Mr. MUHLENBERG in the chair. of the people, they would give more satisfaction. The House then, pursuant to the order of the So far as it was useful to ascertain the real ba-day, resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, lance in the Treasury, so far these periodical com- and resumed the consideration of the appropriamittees would be of the first utility. A question arose, whether the progress of the bill before the committee should be stopped to make those inquiries, or whether it should be suffered to go on; on the supposition that all was right. He wished the proper regulations on this subject settled, as standing regulations, and to be adopted before any idea of their necessity should arise from suspicious circumstances. Mr. LAURANCE wished to proceed in the bill as far as the information already in the possession of the House would carry them. Mr. GERRY made some observations, to show that accounts from the Treasury could never give the information wanted; they generally stated sums of money paid to individuals, without mention of particular objects to which they were meant to be applied. This was a favorable opportunity to establish some such regulations as were contemplated by members. Our officers have, and deserve, the confidence of the people. It would be too late to attempt to make those regulations when there were reasons for suspicion; the influence of suspected officers would be exerted to oppose them. Some further remarks were made by Messrs. BALDWIN, GILES, and FITZSIMONS; after which, the question was put, and the Committee rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. MONDAY, December 5. In proceeding through the bill, the several items were separately considered, and agreed to. Some debate took place. One amendment was proposed, occasional remarks were made; but no material by which the bill is made to express the several purposes for which the moneys are appropriated, instead of appropriating sums in gross, with a reference to the Secretary's estimate, for particulars. The committee having reported the bill and the amendment, the House adopted the same, and recommitted the bill to the select committee, who had originally framed it, with instructions to newmodel it pursuant to the sense of the House. which he laid on the table on Friday last, making Mr. GERRY presented a resolution in lieu of one it the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury tỏ report to the House, on the third Monday of every session, an account of the receipts and expendítures of the public money appropriated during the preceding session, so far as he shall then have it able to give an accurate statement of the whole, in his power to state particulars; and if he be unat the time appointed, he is to complete it as soon afterwards as may be. TUESDAY, December 6. Resolved, That Mr. BENSON, Mr. GERRY, and Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, be appointed a committee on the part of this House, jointly, with such committee as shall be appointed on the part of the Senate, to consider and report to Congress The House again resolved itself into a Com-the most eligible manner for carrying into effect the mittee of the Whole House on the bill making appropriations for the support of Government, for the year one thousand seven hundred and ninetytwo; and, after some time spent therein, Ordered, That the said bill, with amendments, be recommitted to Mr. LAURANCE, Mr. BALDWIN, and Mr. ASHE. The Speaker laid before the House a Letter from the Secretary of Treasury, accompanying his report on the subject of Manufactures, made pursuant to an order of the House of the fifteenth of January, one thousand seven hundred and ninety; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table. The Speaker laid before the House a Letter resolution of the United States in Congress assem- made and seconded, to wit: and report upon the state of the Treasury Department; "Second. That it shall be the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury to report to this House, on the third Monday of every annual session of Congress, a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money, for the preceding year, as far as the DECEMBER, 1791.] Post Office Bill, [H. of R. same can be then ascertained; and as soon thereafter every man, who has the right of voting, shall be as circumstances will permit, of such receipts and ex-in some measure concerned in making every law penditures as cannot be specified in the first statement. for the United States. The establishment of post "Third. That, within the month of January in each roads he considered as a very important object; but year, if Congress shall be then in session, or, if not then he did not wish to see them so diffused as to bein session, within the first week of each succeeding sescome a heavy charge where the advantage resultsion, the Secretary of the Treasury shall lay before the ing from them would be but small; nor, on the House of Representatives an accurate statement of receipts and expenditures down to the last day of the the Treasury, consent to straiten them so as to other hand, for the sake of bringing a revenue into month of December immediately preceding, including check the progress of information. If the post the said day; in which statement shall be distinguished office were to be regulated by the will of a single the expenditures which fall under each head of appropriation, and shall be shown the sums, if any, which person, the dissemination of intelligence might be remain unexpended of such appropriations. And that impeded, and the people kept entirely in the dark a committee be thereupon forthwith appointed to exam- with respect to the transactions of Government; ine the said statement, and report concerning the same or the Postmaster, if vested with the whole power, to the House, and that this be considered as a standing might branch out the offices to such a degree as to make them prove a heavy burden to the United ductive of a benefit sufficient to counterbalance it; States. In many instances the expense is proin others, no public benefit arises, but some individuals reap a private advantage from the institution, whilst it is injurious to others. The most material point, in his opinion, was to determine the road itself; if the House gave up that, they might as well leave all the rest of the business to the discretion of the Postmaster, and permit him to settle the rates of postage, and every other particular relative to the post office, by saying, at once, "there shall be a Postmaster General, who shall have the whole government of the post office, under such regulations as he from time to time shall be pleased to enact. order." Ordered, That the said motions be referred to Mr. GERRY, Mr. DAYTON, and Mr. BARNWELL that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House. POST OFFICE BILL. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House on the bill for establishing the Post Office and Post Roads within the United States. Mr. SEDGWICK moved to strike out all that clause of the bill which designated the roads, and to insert, instead thereof, these words, "by such route as the President of the United States shall, from time to time, cause to be established." It had appeared, he said, to be the sense of the House, when this subject was formerly under consideration, that the demarkation of the particular roads should be intrusted to the Executive; the only difference had been with respect to the mode of expression-but the effect was still to have been the same-some gentlemen thinking it best to leave the details of this business entirely to the supreme Executive, others wishing to name the Postmaster General. The members of the House could not be supposed to possess every information that might be requisite on this subject, and their opinions were liable to be biassed by local interests. He had ever considered it as highly incumbent on the House to give the people every possible information on public concerns; but in this, as in every other subject, he thought it sufficient that the House should establish the principle, and then leave it to the Executive to carry it into effect. Mr. LIVERMORE observed that the Legislative body being empowered by the Constitution "to establish post offices and post roads," it is as clearly their duty to designate the roads as to establish the offices; and he did not think they could with propriety delegate that power, which they were themselves appointed to exercise. Some gentlemen, he knew, were of opinion that the business of the United States could be better transacted by a single person than by many; but this was not the intention of the Constitution. It was provided that the Government should be administered by Representatives, of the people's choice; so that Mr. SEDGWICK felt himself by no means disposed to resign all the business of the House to the President, or to any one else; but he thought that the Executive part of the business ought to be left to Executive officers. He did not, for his part, know the particular circumstances of population, geography, &c., which had been taken into the calculation by the select committee, when they pointed out the roads delineated in the bill; but he would ask, whether they understood the subject so thoroughly as the Executive officer would, who being responsible to the people for the proper discharge of the trust reposed in him, must use his utmost diligence in order to a satisfactory execution of the delegated power? As to the constitutionality of this delegation, it was admitted by the committee themselves who brought in the bill; for if the power was altogether indelegable, no part of it could be delegated; and if a part of it could, he saw no reason why the whole could not. The second section was as unconstitutional as the first, for it is there said, that "it shall be lawful for the Postmaster General to establish such other roads as post roads, as to him may seem necessary." Congress, he observed, are authorized not only to establish post offices and post roads, but also to borrow money; but is it understood that Congress are to go in a body to borrow every sum that may be requisite? Is it not rather their office to determine the principle on which the business is to be conducted, and then delegate the power of carrying their resolves into execution? They are also empowered to coin money, and if no part of their power be delegable, he did not know but they might be obliged to turn coiners, and work in the Mint themselves. Nay, they must even act the part of executioners, in punishing piracies committed on the high seas. In the delegation of power, the whole purpose, in his opinion, is answered, when the rules by which the business is to be conducted are pointed out by law; nor could he discover anything in the Constitution to restrict the House from adopting this mode of conducting business. [DECEMBER, 1791. increase the roads and offices as far as the revenues go. The revenue of the post office is at present not great, but if proper seeds are now sown, it may hereafter be productive. In Great Britain, much has been obtained from the post office, and most of the European nations count upon it as a considerable branch of revenue. Will it be prudent for us to grant this power to the Executive, in the latitude contended for? We must not suppose that this country will always remain incorrupt; we shall share the fate of other nations. Mr. HARTLEY.-I cannot agree with the gentle- Through the medium of the post office a weighty man from Massachusetts, that as often as this influence may be obtained by the Executive; this business had been agitated, there had been a ma-is guarded against in England by prohibiting offijority in the House in favor of leaving it to the cers in the Post Office Department from interExecutive to designate the post roads. Nay, so fering at elections. There is no such guard or far as my recollection (which is perhaps not so caution in the present bill. By the amendment, good as that gentleman's) serves me, we uniformly we are unnecessarily parting with our revenues, have had a majority for Congress to point out the and throwing an improper balance into the Expost roads. ecutive scale, and which our constituents do not expect from us. The Senate heretofore have disagreed with us, but if they will take the same pains we have, the means of information is within their reach; upon a review, they may probably change their sentiments. This is a law of experiment, let us try it a few years. If, upon experience, we find ourselves incompetent to the duty, we must (if the Constitution will admit) grant the power to the Executive; or, if the Constitution will not allow such a delegation, submit the article for amendment in a constitutional way. I am against the amendment. The Constitution seems to have intended that we should exercise all the powers respecting the establishing post roads we are capable of; but the gentleman says we are not competent to this duty, that it must be intrusted to the Executive. Sir, in many questions concerning the property or geography of the United States, we had full information on this floor from every quarter. The people's interests and circumstances have been known, however distinctly or differently situated. On the subject of the post office there has been much discussion. Almost the whole of the roads Mr. B. BOURNE was in favor of the amendment, here stated have appeared in bills before, and which he thought both expedient and constituthough the gentleman (who made the motion for tional. In speaking of post offices and post roads, striking out) may not perfectly understand all the the Constitution, he observed, speaks in general roads, yet if he will be so good as to attend to the terms, as it does of a mint, excises, &c. In passgentlemen who represent the different parts of the ing the excise law, the House, not thinking themUnion, he ought to be satisfied. Unless they are selves possessed of sufficient information, empowprejudiced, they can certainly give the best infor- ered the President to mark out the districts and mation. If it were left to the President or Post-surveys; and if they had a right to delegate such master General, neither is acquainted with all the roads contemplated; they must depend in a great measure on the information of others. power to the Executive, the further delegation of the power of marking out the roads for the conveyance of the mail, could hardly be thought We represent the people, we are constitution- dangerous. The Constitution meant no more than ally vested with the power of determining upon that Congress should possess the exclusive right the establishment of post roads; and, as I under- of doing that, by themselves or by any other perstand at present, ought not to delegate the power son, which amounts to the same thing. The busito any other person. ness he thought much more likely to be well A General Post Office is intended to be estab-executed by the President, or the Postmaster Gelished by the bill, and the collection of the revenueneral, than by Congress. He had himself been of is put under the superintendence of a Postmaster the committee who framed the bill, but could not General; the minutiæ is submitted to him. I tell whether the roads marked out in it were better should imagine there ought to be a limitation of than any other, except so far as relates to the State the law in point of time, say three, four, or five which he represents; and he imagined the other years; when we come to the proper place, a mo-members of the committee were in a similar pretion to that purpose may be made. No one in the dicament. The President having opportunities of United States has a greater respect for the Presi- obtaining information from the different members dent than myself, and I hold that the several De- of the House, from the Postmaster General, and partments are filled with gentlemen of the first from others, will be more competent to determine abilities and fitness, but we are not to confine our- the proper road. It will be occasionally necessary selves to a view of the moment. This bill has to change the route, and lay out new roads, and the complexion of a perpetual law; we must have he could see no inconvenience from intrusting some regard to consequences. If the amendment either the President or the Postmaster General takes place, the office as well as revenue will be with the necessary powers for these purposes. At thrown into the power of the Executive, who may all events, the House could guard against any ap |