this reason he should abstain from mentioning any names, and content himself with laying before their Lordships certain facts which he considered to be worthy of their attention. He should commence with reminding their Lordships of complaints lately made, not, indeed, against the magistrates, but against some officious persons who appeared to have put the power of the magistrates in motion, on the subject of what he could wish to call obsolete statutes; only that, by the laws of England, there were no obsolete statutes-but on the subject of statutes which had not been acted upon for very many years, he might say centuries, and he mentioned this point, because it was from the circumstance of his attention being called to this part of the subject by an old and valued Friend of his (Mr. Pigou), who had bestowed much consideration upon the question, and by whose means many abuses had been pointed out to the authorities, and were, it was to be hoped, in course of remedy it was from the circumstance of his attention being called to this part of the report, that he had extended his consideration to the whole of the reports of the prison in spectors, and he found that on a former occasion he had understated to their Lordships the evils of the officious zeal of which he had complained. He had then stated that eleven persons had been punished for non-attendance at church, of whom one had been sixty-one days in prison, and the others sixty-three. But he had since found that there had been a still worse case; for one man, a labourer, had been in confinement ten weeks, in consequence of being convicted in a penalty of 1s., with 14s. costs, for having been absent from church a single Sunday without reasonable excuse. At the end of the seventy days, application was made to the Secretary of State, who, very properly, was pleased to recommend her Majesty to pardon this man for the offence of having been absent from church one Sunday, and he was released, after having suffered seventy days' imprisonment. He could hardly trust himself to speak of such a case; suffice it to say, he was quite sure that if anything could tend to the desecration of the Sabbath, it was such conduct as that. He had been informed that the informations had been laid against these persons by the procurement of a magistrate, and he should expect that inquiry be made into the subject at the Home Department, whether this were the fact or no. For, though he had before observed, that the justices were not to blame in this matter, inasmuch as if an information was laid before them, and proved, the law was imperative, and they must act upon it; yet if it were found that one justice had laid these informations before other justices, for the purpose of having this law executed, the enforcement of which was imperative upon them, then he would say, that the magistrate laying the information was not without blame. But he had been told, by way of excuse, that these men were persons of bad character, good-for-nothing people, who had been guilty of other excesses, and that it was for the purpose of punishing them for their excesses that this dormant statute had been awakened. Now, that appeared to him to be no justification, no extenuation, but rather an aggravation than an excuse-for every magistrate ought to know that there was nothing worse, nothing more irregular, nothing more calculated to bring the administration of justice into contempt, than to convict a person of one offence and sentence him for another. To proceed with the report of the inspectors, one great subject of complaint was the entire variety of management which prevailed in the different prisons. He found that while in one prison one kind of diet was allowed, in another a totally different kind of diet prevailed. In some prisons for example, animal food in small quantities was given, while in others no animal diet at all was allowed. In some prisons for the first three months, in others for the first six months of confinement, no nourishment beyond a low kind of diet was allowed; and at the end of that time the nourishment was increased. But a complaint frequently made by these inspectors was, that the diet was too low for persons condemned to hard labour, a system which was found to inflict great, and in many cases permanent injury upon those who came under its operation. One prison in particular was mentioned, where the diet in these cases was so low that many of the prisoners were suffering from a dreadful disease, which, he believed, was now peculiar to prisons, although at one time it had been very prevalent in this country-he meant the land scurvy. In the case alluded to, it was clear that the diet was below what it ought to be, and the reports of the medical men all went to show, that low diet was one of the principal causes of the disease. In that prison, the proportion of persons in the hospital amounted, at the time the report In one case which he had particularly remarked, the punishment was twelve dozen of lashes, inflicted upon the complaint of the keeper, against a person who appeared indeed to have been a very vicious person was made, to ten persons out of fifty, the aware that the keeper of a prison had the total number of those in the prison; thus, power, under the Gaol Act, of inflicting one-fifth of the inmates of the prison were punishments of a lesser description; thus in the hospital, and the medical officer of for the more ordinary offences, such as the prison stated, that such was the usual breaches of prison discipline, he had the proportion. Now, it was clear that there power of confining prisoners for three must be something wrong in the manage-days on a low diet; but for offences of a ment of the prison to give so large a pro- greater weight, he must go before the portion. He would not enter further into visiting justices, any two of whom, or particulars, as it was his intention to indeed any two of the justices, were emfurnish the Home Department with a refer-powered to inflict a severer punishment. ence to the pages of the reports in which those particulars were stated, in order that the evils might be inquired into. There was another abuse, which it appeared to him required a remedy, and that was the gaoler having, contrary to the twenty-four rules of the Gaol Act of 1825, a direct interest in the supply of articles to the prison. It was quite clear that he, should have no concern in these matters whatever. In the prison to which he had adverted, the gaoler provided a great many articles, and one of them he particularly recollected was beer, when supplied to the prisoners under the surgeon's direction; and an aggravation of this abuse was, that he charged the county with 1s. 4d. a gallon for the beer, but paid only 1s. the gallon himself. The attendance of the officers, also, varied very much, more than he could have supposed. In most prisons the chaplain did his duty in an exemplary manner. He attended, not merely on Sundays, and other days of public worship, but he visited the prisoners in their cells, and gave them spiritual advice. In the vast majority of the cases, then, the duty was well performed; but in the reports there were many exceptions; and it was remarkable that these occurred in the prisons which were most numerously filled, and where the salaries of the chaplains were most ample. The next question to which he should refer was, the punishment of prisoners; and it was greatly to be regretted that personal chastisement, flogging, should be allowed as an ordinary punishment. He did not mean to say, that in no case should it be inflicted, but he thought the more sparingly it was resorted to the better. Their Lordships would observe, that the punishment was inflicted publicly, before all the inmates of the prison, the object being to deter by example; but if their Lordships would look at the report to which he was now referring, they would find that the example could not be said to be a wholesome one in that respect. Their Lordships were who had been thirty times in prison, but for offences connected with the game laws, a poacher. The individual was evidently what might be called an incorrigible person.. It did not appear very clearly what the offence was for which that punishment was given. but it seemed to be for generally refractory and mutinous conduct, without any special act being done to warrant such a punishment. The person was not only mutinous himself, but also encouraged the other prisoners to violate the laws of the prison, but notwithstanding twelve dozen lashes ought not to have been given. Nothing could be more shocking than the effect which this punishment had had upon the rest of the prisoners. It seemed to have an entirely contrary effect to that which was anticipated from such punishments. It was quite obvious that no such punishment ought to have been permitted, and he could only regard the magistrates, a clergyman or a country gentleman, as having been surprised into the order which sanctioned it. A very great variety was found to exist in the discipline of different prisons. He would state some instances of that variety, because the matter appeared to him of great consequence with regard to the ends of justice. He would take three counties, Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, and Hertfordshire, and he would show to their Lordships how much the inflictions varied in the prisons of those counties. He took these counties merely because they were contiguous, and probably inhabited by the same kind of people. In Bucks, the number of punishments for breaches of prison discipline, as compared with the number of inmates, amounted to only one punishment for three persons, that was, there being 135 persons as the average num. ber of prisoners for the year, the number of punishments during that year was forty- ther the keeper or the magistrates, or three. In the next county, Berks, let him whether this man was really summarily take one of the gaols, and he found that convicted in the manner which he had the punishments were not one to three described. It was quite impossible that the persons, but three to two persons, that was whole of the volumes of the reports of the sixty-three punishments to forty-two per- Inspectors of Prisons could be thoroughly sons, being 4 greater than in the adjoin- read, and considered, and acted upon by ing county. In another gaol in the saine the Home Secretary, immediatey on their county of Berks, the proportion got up to publication. He did not blame the Home double, the punishments being three to Secretary for not having acted sooner on one person. In Hertfordshire the pro- those reports: on the contrary, after the portion rose still higher, for there it best consideration, he thought it was the was four punishments for one person, most desirable course, in the first instance, which was twelve times more than in the to lay these reports before Parliament, and county of Bucks. Then, if they came to to let the parties whose conduct was adthe county in which they then were, he verted to, in consequence of slight irregulafound that in one prison in the city there rities, see them; and wait till the next rewere five punishments for two persons; in port, to observe whether any alteration had another, three punishments for two per- taken place. The Sixth Report of the Insons; and in a third, nine punishments spectors contained statements with respect for one person, being twenty-seven times to more serious matters, involving the congreater than in Buckinghamshire. Now, duct of many officers of prisons. He could it was perfectly impossible that the nature not help expressing his concurrence also and habits of individuals could be so differ- with the course that had been taken by the ent as this disproportion of punishments Home Office with regard to the appointwould imply, and the disparity must, ment of a legal adviser to that office. He therefore, in a great measure be owing to regretted to hear that it was the intention the mischievous diversity of rules, which to diminish the number of legal officers in was matter of just complaint. There that department. The Solicitor of the Home were one or two other points to which he Department, as he understood, had, from would call the attention of their Lord- motives of delicacy to the present Secreships. He found from the report that not tary of State, sent in his resignation. He merely in one or two, but in a great many greatly regretted this, and thought that it cases, untried prisoners were confined in was altogether unnecessary to do so until the same place with convicts, and this in inquiry had been made to see whether it prisons where there was no allegation of would not be advantageous to continue want of accommodation. Again, in this office. From his own knowledge of very many cases, it appeared that untried pri- the Home Department, and from the difsoners were subjected to the prison dress. ficulties which often arose in consequence There was one complaint to which he must of state prosecutions, and more especially allude of a very extraordinary nature. A in cases which occurred consequent on prisoner stated to the inspector that he great changes in the law, he felt convinced had been illegally detained in custody, that the retaining this legal officer would having been committed for trial at the ses-be a saving, and not a loss of public money. sions, and having, after the lapse of some days, been called up by the keeper, and told by him that he had been summarily convicted, and adjudged to twelve months' imprisonment. He thought this a very strange circumstance; it looked to him very like the case of a person who had been tried and sentenced to twelve months' imprisonment in his absence. He could not help thinking, that there had been some very considerable irregularity in this case, and he highly approved of the discharge of the prisoner, by the order of the Secretary of State. He, however, should like inquiry to be made into the matter, with the view of learning who was in fault-whe He said nothing of other advantages that would result from keeping up this place. When he was in office he felt deeply the importance of such an appointment, and what had taken place since had convinced him still more of its importance. Under these circumstances, he thought that it was altogether unnecessary for Mr. Vizard at once to resign his office, for if any inquiry had been instituted, he was convinced that the result would be a recommendation to continue it. The motion which he was about to make was, that an address be presented to her Majesty, praying that directions might be given that at the commencement of next Ses and learned Friend, it perhaps would not be possible to determine how far the authorities had been justified in acting in the way which had been described, but they were matters which most certainly called for rigid inquiry. If it was true that in some places the punishments inflicted on persons in prison were as nine to one in other places, it was a very remark ought to be thoroughly investigated. His noble and learned Friend had promised to send to his right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department, the details of these particular cases; he (the Duke of Wellington) was sure, that his right hon. Friend would pay every attention to them, and would direct inquiry to be made. So far from opposing the object of the motion, he should be very glad to give every information to the House on the subject, but he thought that there would be a technical difficulty as to presenting such an address, as it called upon the Crown to order information to be laid prospectively before them next Session of Parliament. sion of Parliament, there be laid on the Table returns as to what had been done in consequence of the reports of the inspectors of prisons for the previous year. This would insure attention at the Home Office to the subject. He made this proposition entirely in consequence of what he had seen in the sixth report of the inspectors of prisons, and he wished to state distinctly, that he meant to cast no blame on the Homeable circumstance, and no doubt the causes Department. He felt the greatest pleasure in being able to state that nothing could have been more satisfactory than the conduct of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Normanby) in this department; his whole proceedings were marked with great judgment and his conduct had been as commendable for its decision as for its humanity. He felt it only a matter of duty, to say this as he had been impelled on a former occasion to differ from his noble Friend, as to some proceedings of his administration in another department, and had been under the painful necessity of obtaining the concurrence of the House in the view he took of the subject. He repeated he was much gratified to find that his noble Friend's conduct in the Home-office had been so satisfactory during the whole period in which he had held the seals; and he did not think that his noble Friend's successor could do better than imitate, he could Lord Campbell agreed in the remark of scarcely surpass, his example. He confined the noble Duke opposite, that the motion his motion to the sixth report, in conse- for prospective information would be irrequence of the duties of the Home-office hav-gular. While he was on his legs he begged ing been so satisfactorily discharged. The to call the attention of their Lordships to noble and learned Lord concluded by moving that "A humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty would be graciously pleased to give directions, that at the commencement of next Session of Parliament, there should be laid on the Table of both Houses a report of the proceedings that had taken place, founded on the Report of the Inspectors of Prisons for the previous year." The Duke of Wellington observed, that as it was necessary that the reports of the inspectors of prisons should be laid before Parliament, it was probably right that both Houses should have full knowledge of what had been done in consequence of these reports. He confessed that he did not exactly know the points his noble and learned Friend intended to allude to, as he was not acquainted with the details respecting the question of prison discipline. With respect to the details of each case which had been alluded to by his noble Lord Brougham said, it was merely a direction. The motion was in the ordinary shape. The Lord Chancellor suggested that the words "next Session of Parliament" might be omitted. the want of law assistance at the Home Office. No man was more sensible of the great zeal and ability of Mr. Vizard, and he thought the public service was likely to suffer if legal assistance was withheld in that department. He had had nearly nine years' experience connected with the Home Department, and he had no hesitation in saying that a more valuable public servant could not be found than Mr. Vizard. Lord Brougham said, his noble and learned Friend was quite mistaken. The motion, as made by him, was strictly regular. Motion amended as follows agreed to. "That an humble Address be presented to graciously be pleased to give directions that her Majesty, praying that her Majesty would there be laid before this House, an account of any proceedings had by the Home Department in consequence of the sixth report of the Inspectors of Prisons, as far as the same can be done without detriment to the public over that Board. In that proposition he service." PRIVATE BUSINESS.] On the motion of Mr. Greene the following resolutions were agreed to : "That all standing orders regulating the practice of this House and of the Private Billoffice, with reference to estate and name bills, be, during the present Session, suspended; that all such bills during this Session, be, after their second reading, referred to a select committee; that such committee do consist of the following Members :-Mr. Greene, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Tatton Egerton, and Mr. Walker; that three be the quorum; that it be an instruction to such committee to inquire whether there be any standing orders applying to such bills, and, if so, whether they have been complied with; and that they do report the same specially to the House; that such committee have power to report on the same day on which they sit; that such bills be permitted to proceed de die in diem through all their other stages." SUPPLY-BOARD OF ORDNANCE.] On the Report of the Committee of Supply being brought up. Captain Pechell said, he regretted the absence of the right hon. Member for Dorchester, but he could not omit the opportunity of expressing his sentiments, seeing the misapprehensions on the part of military men upon the subject, which had been brought before the House by his hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Marylebone. That hon. Member stated the unfitness of certain stores for the use, either of the army or navy, and that a naval officer should be placed over the Board of Ordnance, to which the Member for Tamworth replied, that there was no occasion for a naval officer being so placed entirely concurred. He thought it competent for any officer in the army to be attached to the Board of Ordnance, but what he contended for was, that the Board of Ordnance was so connected with the Admiralty, that it was absolutely necessary that a naval officer should be a member of the Ordnance Board. It was sur prising that his hon. and gallant Friend and Sir R. Stopford, were able to obtain the thanks of the House, when the inefficient state of the Naval Department as to stores and muskets, was such as his hon. Friend had so justly described. He should always find it imperative on him, when the Ordnance Estimates were brought forward, to give free expression to his sentiments on this subject. Captain Plumridge concurred in the hon. Member's remark, but would reserve what he had to say for a future occasion. Report received. Resolution agreed to. THE QUEEN-SAXMUNDHAM AGRICULTURAL ASSOCIATION.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer having moved the Order of the Day for a committee of Ways and Means. He be Sir C. B. Vere requested the indulgence of the House for a few moments. lieved it was not strictly regular to allude to a former debate, but he felt called on to take notice of some remarks made the other night by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Gibson), upon the late dinner of the Agricultural Association of Saxmundham. He did not hear the name at the time, or he should have risen, but he had since received a letter from the noble Lord who was President of the Association, complaining of the remarks of the hon. Member. The House would recollect that the hon. Member had spoken of the Saxmundham Agricultural Association as having shown the symptons of becoming a Conservative Association; because, while they had received the health of her Majesty with cold indifference, they drank that of the Queen Dowager with nine times nine. The hon. Member also remarked upon the course which the Association had taken in having labourers brought in, and spoke in such a manner as to cast a reflection on the motives of the Association. The Earl of Stradbroke was in the chair on that occasion, and in introducing the Queen's health he said, he had the honour to propose a |