He

Upon the vote of 19,6007. for foreign and other secret services being proposed, Mr. Williams said, that this was a vote to which he should decidedly object. found the charge for foreign secret service for the year was 25,000l.; and for the home secret service, the charge was 10,000l.; and 6,000l. also for the same services in Ireland. Now there was an impression abroad that this secret service money was applied to all sorts of improper purposes. It had been said, that it had frequently been used to a great extent at the elections. He did not object to a reasonable sum being allowed for foreign secret services, but he could see no reason for any such expenditure in this country or in Ireland, unless indeed it were required to pay spies; and, as spies were not wanted in this country or in Ireland, he should oppose the vote altogether, as there had been already a sufficient sum voted for the foreign secret services. The committee divided Ayes 144, Noes 7; Majority 137.

List of the AYES.

Hornby, J. Inglis, Sir R. H. Irton, S. Jermyn, Earl Johnson, W. G. Ker, D. S. Knightley, Sir C. Law, hon. C. E. Lawson, A. Legh, G. C. Leicester, Earl of Lennox, Lord A. Lindsay, H. H. Litton, E. Lockhart, W. Mackenzie, W. F. Manners, Lord J. March, Earl of Marsham, Viscount Masterman, J. Mitchell, T. A. Mundy, E. M. Morgan, O. Murphy, F. S. Murray, C. R. S. Neville, R. Nicholl, right hon. J. O'Connell, M. J. Ogle, S. C. H. Paget, Lord W. Pakington, J. S.

Palmerston, Viscount
Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.
Peel, J.

Plumridge, Capt.
Plumptre, J. P.
Pollock, Sir F.

Protheroe, E.

Baring, hon. W. B.

Forbes, W.

Barnard, E. G.

Forman, T. S.

Baskerville,

T. B. M.

Fuller, A. E.

Bryan, G.

Beckett, W.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Fielden, J.

Boldero, H. G.

Gill, T.

Harford, S.

Borthwick, P.

Gore, M.

Hindley, C.

Boscawen, Lord

Goring, C.

Morris, D.

Botfield, B.

Bowring, Dr.

Bramston, T. W.

Broadley, H.

Brotherton, J.

Browne, hn. W.

Burrell, Sir C. M.
Campbell, A.

Carnegie, hon. Capt.
Chelsea, Viscount
Clements, Viscount
Clerk, Sir G.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Cochrane, A.

Cripps, W.

Darby, G.

Dalrymple, Captain

Dawnay, hon. W. H.

Dickinson, F. H.

Dodd, G.

Douglas, Sir C. E.
Douglas, J. D. S.

Goulburn, rt. hn. H. Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. Granger, T. C.

Greenall, P.

Grimston, Viscount Grogan, É. Hale, R. B. Hamilton, W. J. Hamilton, Lord C. Harcourt, G. G. Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H. Hayes, Sir E. Heathcoat, J. Henley, J. W. Henniker, Lord Herbert, hon. S. Hodgson, R. Hogg, J. W. Hollond, R. Hope, hon. C. Hope, A. Hope, G. W.

Vote agreed to.

Pechell, Captain Wakley, T.

TELLERS.

Williams, W. Crawford, W. S.

SUPPLY-CONVICTS.] On the vote of 133,500l. for the expense of convicts in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land.

Mr. Williams complained of the amount of this grant which made criminal jurisprudence very costly.

Sir R. Peel said that before next year the whole of these estimates should undergo the most careful revision. Agreed to.

SUPPLY-EDUCATION IN SLAVE COLONIES.] 15,000l. for the religious and moral instruction of the emancipated Negro population having been proposed,

Mr. Williams objected to the vote. It

SUPPLY PROVINCIAL SCHOOLS OF DESIGN.] On a grant of 5,0007. in aid of local subscriptions for the establishment of Schools of Design in large towns.

Mr. Williams said, he approved of this grant, but regretted that he could not find people in any town to combine for the purpose of extending the advantages of schools of design among their fellow townsmen, and hoped that the Government would use some strenuous efforts to promote their establishment.

Sir R. Peel said, he should never object to the grant of public money for such a purpose. He thought that it would be a great benefit to the country if schools of designs were established generally throughout all manufacturing districts. but he was quite certain that Government alone should not take it up, but should invite the co-operation of persons on the spot, who, it was hoped, would take a sufficient interest in the matter as to co-operate actively with the Government. Unless individuals in the respective localities assisted Government, he was very much afraid it would not be as successful as they wished.

Mr. Ewart concurred in the views which had been taken by the right hon. Baronet. Dr. Bowring said, that there could not

be any doubt but the most successful schools on the Continent were those where where the Government had been assisted by the persons residing in the locality.

Mr. Williams said, he had heard the opinions of the right hon. Baronet with the greatest satisfaction. Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY-MAYNOOTH.] On the motion that a sum not exceeding 4,4647. be granted to her Majesty to defray the charges incidental to the support of the Roman Catholic College of Maynooth.

Mr. Plumptre said, that he rose as an individual Member of Parliament to oppose the grant. It was only that day that he had presented thirty-five petitions against any further grant to the College of Maynooth, and he had presented at an earlier period of the year not less than 100 petitions to the same effect. He hoped that the right hon. Baronet below him would not think that in opposing this vote he meant to offer the slightest opposition to his general policy. He had uniformly opposed it on all occasions, and though he felt it to be his duty to differ with the Right hon. Baronet on this matter, he was most anxious to give him in all other things every support in his power. He felt delighted to see the right hon. Baronet occupying the place he did, and to know that he was, as he had himself expressed it, free as the wind to do as an independent Minister, determined to do his duty to the country. He would prove a blessing to the country, and he invoked the blessing of ALMIGHTY GOD upon his head. He had ever opposed this vote, and he did so still, on the principle that he could not consent to grant the public money in support of what he believed to be the propagation of error. say "Nay," to the present vote, and unless some very strong reasons were adduced to dissuade him from it, he should divide the Committee on it.

He should

Major Bryan suggested, that many hon. Members could hardly be expected to vote money for the Church of England, who were opposed to that Church, but who never asserted, that in so voting, they voted for the propagation of error.

Sir R. H. Inglis concurred with his hon. Friend in the opinion that the grant to Maynooth was most objectionable; but hoped that he would not divide the Committee on the present vote. There had been

a previous vote this year taken, and the parties had doubtless calculated upon the remainder being also granted by Parliament, and had incurred certain expenses which otherwise they would not, and, therefore, he was indisposed to disappoint them in the second half of the grant for this year. But let the hon. Gentleman oppose the grant in the first instance next year, and let the parties have due notice of that opposition, so that they may make their calculations accordingly, and he should certainly support him. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member opposite, he would say, that voluntarily he would not give money for the propagation of what he conceived to be an error; but when a positive law ordained that it should be paid, then he should pay it. Individuals were not taxed in relation to their creeds, but in relation to their property.

Mr. M. J. O'Connell said, he should like to know whether the argument of the hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford University (Sir Robert Inglis), did not apply to his favourite motion for Church of England extension? He only wished that there should be a fair division on this question of Maynooth College.

Mr. Pakington expressed his earnest hope that his hon. Friend would not divide the Committee, though he was inclined to doubt whether the money voted to Maynooth College was a grant which was beneficially applied.

Mr. Darby also opposed the grant, but hoped his hon. Friend would not divide.

Mr. Smythe supported the vote, because he conceived it to be only an act of justice to the great majority of our Roman Catholic brethren in Ireland, who had strong claims upon us. He did not support the vote on the ground taken by the hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis), namely, that of prescription; because it should be recollected, that had it not been for the statute of mortmain, introduced by Lord Chancellor Hardwicke, a statute palpably levelled at Roman Catholics, a rev. prelate would have bequeathed a large quantity of property to Maynooth College which would have been thus rendered independent of all Parliamentary aid.

Sir R. Peel: Sir, I merely rise to say, that I perfectly remember having expressed my opinion upon this vote in the last, or probably the preceding Session of Parliament, and, to prevent any mistake arising as to my motives for proposing and sup+ VOL. LIX. {}

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Series

porting it now, I must say, that I do not rest my vote in favour of it on the ground that one-half of the required estimate has been already voted by the House. I have voted for the grant to Maynooth College for the last thirty years, whether in or out of office, without feeling any violation of religious scruples. In order to enter into a full defence of this vote upon the present occasion, it would be necessary to state all the circumstances under which, at the period of the Union, the vote for Maynooth was originally given, and I must, therefore, confine myself to my former reasons for having considered it my duty to make the proposal of the present grant in the estimates before the House.

Mr. M. J. O'Connell said, it must have been three Sessions since the right hon. Baronet had expressed the opinions to which he had referred, for he did not think he had spoken upon the subject when it had been discussed in either of the last Sessions.

Sir R. Peel: I really cannot say positively whether it is two or three Sessions from this time that I spoke upon a similar vote to this, but I remember a distinct proposal being made by some hon. Gentleman respecting the grant being withheld, and that I then made a speech upon it, in which I gave my reasons for supporting its continuance. It would have been very easy for me to have avoided giving a vote on the occasion to which I refer, by leaving the House, as other hon. Members sometimes do. I certainly spoke my sentiments upon the grant, however; but if I have accidentally been absent when some similar vote has been discussed in subsequent Sessions, no inference ought to be drawn from such a circumstance than ought, at the present moment, to be drawn from the fact, that the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), the late Secretary of State, is not in the House.

Mr. M. J. O'Connell said, he did not want to draw any inference from his absence, but he had heard the matter remarked by some hon. Members in that House.

Mr. Plumptre said, however he might feel disposed to acquiesce in the recommendation of some hon. Friends about him, he felt conscientiously disposed to press his motion to a division.

Mr. Cochrane said, that, although he was disposed to allow every man the free exercise of his religious principles, yet as he was conscientiously opposed to the present grant he would vote against it.

Y 8

vote.

ROYAL GARDENS, KENSINGTON.] Sir Thomas Freemantle, in proposing the second reading of the Royal Gardens Bill, hoped the House would allow it to be advanced a stage, though the hour was late, on the condition that the discussion should be taken on a future stage of the bill.

Mr. Protheroe said, he had yet heard no argument upon this subject which had had sufficient weight with him to induce him to consent to the bill passing through another stage, and he must therefore, however reluctantly, oppose its further progress on the present occasion.

Mr. Wakley said, he feared a division would be of no use, if the Government were determined to carry out their measure. He had, the other evening, begged the right hon. Baronet to go and visit the spot on which it was proposed to build, and he was sure, if the right hon. Baronet would personally look at the place itself he would not persevere with

the bill.

Sir Robert Peel: I have taken the advice of the hon. Member, and have visited the spot in question-and I must say, that I do not, after having done so, feel the force of his objections to the proposed plan, for I found, that on going from Kensington Palace to the Uxbridge road, the land on which it is proposed to build, is all on the left hand of the path which bounds Kensington-gardens. It is ground which has never been open to the public; and, besides, it is only intended to build villas upon it, which will not occupy the same space as would a street of continuous houses. There will be as much open space left after the villas are built as there is now, and the health of the neighbourhood will be much more promoted by the alteration of the place, as proposed, than by leaving it in its present state, or building streets upon it. If we admit that the object of consolidating the gardens is a useful one, it is surely better to devote the Crown land to the purpose proposed, and that we should vote the money required in this way, than that we should come down next year, and ask for VOL. LIX. {i}

Third

Bill read a second time.- Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMON S,

Tuesday, September 21, 1841. MINUTES.] New Members. Earl of Lincoln, for South

Notts; W. Busfeild, Esq., for Bradford. Bills. Read first time:-Expiring Laws; Poor-law Commission Continuance.-Read third time :-Navy Pay. Petitions presented. By Mr. Greenall, from Wigan, for

Better Observance of the Sabbath.-By Mr. Clay, from Hackney, and by Mr. P. M. Stewart, from Paisley, for Inquiry into present Distress.-By Mr. Wakley, from Pagham, for the Repeal of the New Poor-law.

VACATION OF SEATS-MEMBER FOR

RIPON.] Sir T. Wilde begged to repeat question which had been put the night to the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the been issued for the borough of Ripon, in before, why it was that a new writ had not the place of the right hon. Gentleman, who had been appointed to the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland.

Sir R. Peel did not perceive, that, according to his interpretation of the act, it was necessary for any Gentleman to whom office had been offered to vacate his seat in Parliament until the completion of the formal proceedings which might be considered to constitute the formal appointment. If hon. Gentlemen were to be compelled to vacate their seats before there was a bona fide acceptance of the office which they had been offered, and before the appointment was completed, the greatest inconvenience might be sustained by Gentlemen who, after having an offer made them, and having thereupon. vacated their seats, had the offer, from some cause or other, revoked. As, however, in the present case, the formal instruments had advanced to such a stage as practically to preclude a revocation of the offer, if the hon. Member opposite thought proper to move a new writ for Ripon, he should make no sort of objection to the motion.

Sir Thomas Wilde said: Nothing that ever fell from the right hon. Baronet gave me more regret than the statement which he has just made, sanctioning principles which will, in my judgment, go far to destroy the independence of this House, As the issuing of the writ is no longer opposed, I should have been content to have made the motion without adding a single word, because, in bringing the matter under the attention of the House, I had no desire to Z