any man to point to a single act of his he was speaking for society at large, and life that could have deprived him of that as a Member of that House. He said it appellation. Honourable! Sir-why not was a breach of the privileges of that honourable? It stated, that he was House that any Member, no matter how sprung from the humbler orders of society. humble his position might be, should be Suppose it were so, was that to be any so traduced, and that an attempt should interruption to his efficiently discharging be made to bully him-for he knew no his public duty? He had appeared be- word he could more fitly use on that occafore a large constituency of his country- sion-in order to prevent his execution of men, and he now represented that con- his duty, and that for such purpose such stituency in Parliament. Suppose he were an article as he held in his hand should not descended, as he was, from ancestors be put into the press. He asked the distinguished for science and literature, House whether that was a right mode of would that afford a reason for his being proceeding? [Interruption.] He complained made the mark for insinuations-that he of the interruption, and the more that he was unfit to make such a proposition? It at all times experienced a difficulty in said, wholly unfit. Of that he would ask making himself understood from the delithe 60,000 inhabitants of Bath, rather cate state of his health. Looking at the than the anonymous scribbler of The privileges of that House, he would ask Times. He would remind the House, them if they did not pay dearly for the that, according to its rules, he might, advantages derived from the liberty of at the end of his speech move to the press, by allowing such anonymous bring the responsible party on his knees slanders to be scattered abroad, against to the Bar of that House. He claimed all parties who, no matter for what moit as a right due to himself and to tives, might deem it their duty to take the constituencies of the empire, that part in public life. He would ask any he should answer such flagrant abuse of hon. Gentleman who had read that artithe liberty of the press as it ought to be cle, and who had known him since he had answered. There was upon a newspaper first entered into public life, if there was establishment a person as necessary to it anything in his conduct, public or private, as its editor, who was called its respon- that could justify any man in thus atsible proprietor, and who was registered, tempting to depreciate him in the estimaand whose name was Lawson. He took tion of the world by such an attack? Was it, however, that the chances were, that it for the benefit of the world at large that as the cards stood, that person was not such proceedings should be permitted? then in the enjoyment of his personal He would ask the House to consider that liberty. Ay, that he was in prison; for so point. One of two things must be the libellous was The Times, that the presump- consequence-either the public, for the tion was, that he who represented it must sake of their own security, would demand be in prison. That man bore the respon- that every man should put his name to sibility of The Times, first as to any fines the articles which he published, or a bill to which it might be subject; next, as to must be brought in, requiring that every any imprisonment to which the proprietor article published in a newspaper should of the paper might be sentenced; and, have a name affixed to it of some person thirdly, as to the cudgelling which it who would bear the responsibility. He might deserve. But why? He bore all wished to know whether or not it was to the responsibility; the writers of The be suffered that Members of that House Times were totally irresponsible, as much should be attempted to be frightened from so as if they lived in South Australia, and executing their duty? He should continue penned their articles there. Did any hon. his course of duty unrestrained by such Member think that the writer of the article attacks of the press, and such a press; but of which he complained would send him he chose to take these means of expressing his name to-night on his return home? his opinion, and of calling for the opinion No; he chose to pen the article in which of the constituencies of hon. Members, to it was stated that he (Mr. Roebuck) was whom he put it, to mark their approbation wholly unworthy of the name of an ho- or their disapprobation of the course of nourable man, and he dared not give his proceeding which such a newspaper had name. Let the House consider the morality chosen to adopt. Before he finished, he of that. He was not speaking for himself, I would suggest, if there were any more sen sitive than himself, for he was not to be deterred by these attacks, but to those who might be more sensitive than himself, he would suggest an infallible remedy for these evils. Violent diseases required violent remedies. The parties making the attack were irresponsible, and beyond reach. They could not be got at either by law or by opinion. He wanted to know whether they could not be got at otherwise, and if any hon. Members were attacked by The Times, and did not wish for a repetition of the attack, he would suggest to them at once to horsewhip the proprietor, Mr. Walter, and they might depend upon it that the attack would not be repeated. [Cries of" Order." Sir R. Inglis: Does the hon. Member intend to conclude with any motion? Mr. Roebuck: I shall not make any motion. Mr. Roebuck would ask the Speaker whether the course he had adopted was not a usual one? be called to the Bar. The hon. Member gave in The Times newspaper of this day. The Clerk was proceeding to read the article, when Mr. Roebuck interrupted him by saying, that he was not reading the paragraph complained of, and told him to begin at another place which he described. The Clerk again proceeded to read from the article, but was in a few seconds again interrupted by Mr. Roebuck, said-Surely you are not reading the right passage. Begin "Amidst the pauses which sometimes occur in the melodious voices of Messrs. Hawes and Ward." [The bon. Member advanced to the Table and read it himself.] It was in these words : in the melodious voices of Messrs. Hawes "Amidst the pauses which sometimes occur and Ward, and Dr. Bowring, the House is Sir R. Inglis said, that the hon. Mem-threatened with an interlude by their gallery ber had, then, occupied the time of the Friend Mr. Roebuck, on the subject of the House very needlessly and unnecessarily. Poor-law Commission. Nothing could be The hon. Member had given the House a further from our habitual civility, or more at dissertation respecting his ancestors, who, variance with our known respect for the humbler orders of our countrymen than to he said were distinguished in art, science, represent Mr. Roebuck as a nuisance, Havand literature; but he had not conde- ing been made an hon. Gentleman by dint of scended to state who they were. getting into Parliament, that elevated person has an undoubted right to exercise the privileges of his sphere-we admit it. That those privileges entitle him to fling orange peel at the principal performers, or to have a sally at the dress boxes now and then, might not, if his class license were moderately used, be reasonably complained of. Chartists, such as he, are chartered men; and their occasional impertinences are both expected and endured. But Mr. Roebuck and his associates must not be permitted entirely to forget their station. That he should be allowed to injure everything at his mere pleasure is wholly out of the question. If he does not know his just limits and latitude, the lesson must be seasonably taught him. The evil of seeing important interests made utter havoc of by a precipitate and pert interference is not to be endured. In point of personal and political influence he is just as fit to take a lead in modifying the New Poor-law as the one-shilling gentry of Drury-lane," The Speaker said, it was irregular for any hon. Member to complain of a newspaper article unless he intended to follow it up with a motion. The more regular course was, for the hon. Member to move that it be read by the Clerk, and that it was a breach of privilege, and then to move that the printer be called to the Bur. The motion might be persevered in or not, as the hon. Member thought fit. Mr. Roebuck said, that when he rose he stated, that he was aware he had the power of moving, that the printer be brought to the Bar of the House. He thought to save the time of the House by the course which he had pursued. If the hon. Member for Oxford insisted upon it, he would make the motion. Sir R. Inglis: I insist upon nothing. Mr. Roebuck: It is easy to get out of the matter so; but the hon. Baronet has insiquated a sarcasm, which he would have been reluctant to utter. The Speaker: The course at present pursued is decidedly irregular. Mr. Rochuck said, he would then move that the printer of The Times newspaper liminary motion, that the words complained of were a breach of privilege. Mr. Roebuck said, that perhaps he might be allowed to state, that he had always understood, when any hon. Member found anything in the public prints offensive to his personal feelings, he was allowed an opportunity of bringing the matter before the House, of explaining, and stating the injury which had been done to his feelings. He had seen this done so many times, that he really thought, from the kind feelings-he said the kind feelings, and he wished to say no more of any man than he deservedof the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir R. Inglis), he would have been the last man to interfere to prevent him (Mr. Roebuck) from availing himself of a practice which was common among hon. Members. Sir R. Inglis believed there was no question before the House. Mr. Roebuck said, that if it was the pleasure of the House that he should so move, he would move, "That the words just read constitute a breach of the privileges of this House." The Speaker: who seconds the motion? BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.] Sir G. Clerk moved, that the House, at its rising, do adjourn until Thursday, the 16th instant. Viscount Palmerston said, that it probably would be convenient to the House to know whether her Majesty's Government intended, after the recess, to proceed immediately to such business as they meant to propose to the House without further adjournment? Sir G. Clerk said, that the first Lord of the Treasury would, he hoped, be in his place on Thursday, the 16th, when he would be able to answer the noble Viscount. Cottenham in his judicial capacity, and that testimony, arising, as it did, from an oblivion of party distinctions, was alike. honourable to the bar and to the noble and learned Lord who was the object of it. He believed, that he was only saying what would be supported by the judgment of every one who was conversant with such matters, that Lord Cottenham, by the indefatigable attention which he applied to business, by the impartiality and soundness of his decisions, and by the large scope of mind which he brought to the discharge of the functions which he had to administer, would hold rank among the most eminent of those who had ever held the office of Lord Chancellor. Mr. Wakley wished to ask, whether anything could be more offensive to common sense, than that a judge, who had committed no fault, should be dismissed, in consequence of a political change? That such a thing should be, was such a violation of common sense and justice, that he trusted some leading Members of the House would put an end to it, by the insertion of clauses in this bill. Mr. C. Buller agreed, that while both sides of the House were eulogizing the conduct of the late Lord Chancellor, they ought not to forget to apply a remedy to a state of things which deprived the suitors of the country of the services of a judge in the prime of his faculties, merely in consequence of a political change. But the separation of the judicial and political functions of the head of the Chancery Courts could not be effected in this bill, as it would require various enactments in great detail. Lord Cottenham, among his other merits, had formerly introduced a measure for this very purpose into the other House, But such a bill ought to emanate from the Government, and he hoped they would soon take steps towards this change, which he thought would confer a greater benefit on the country than any which had yet been made in the administration of justice. Bill read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the 17th. House adjourned to the 16th. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, September 16, 1841 MINUTES.] Several Members of the New Administration took their Seats on their Re-election, New Writs were issued for Port Arlington, in the room of the right hon. George Lionel Dawson Damer, Comptroller of her Majesty's Household; and for Cavan, in the room by the late Government, during the last of John Young, Esq., Commissioner of the Treasury. Bills. Read second time:-Foreign Bishops.-Read first time :-Royal Gardens. Election Petitions. Dublin cy. abandoned. PUBLIC BUSINESS.] Sir R. Peel: I rise, Sir, to move for a paper to which it is, perhaps, desirable that I should at once call the attention of the House, and which is connected with the execution of those works which are now in progress for building the two new Houses of Parliament, and with the adoption of measures for warming and ventilating the present Houses. In making this motion, it will, perhaps, be for the general convenience of the House, that I should avail myself of the opportunity of stating the course which it is my intention, on the part of her Majesty's Government, to pursue with respect to the public business of the country. Notice has been already given for to-morrow, of taking into consideration those estimates for which complete provision has not been made in the late Session of Parliament. That vote will refer to the miscellaneous services of the year. One half of the sum which will be required for the provision for those services has been already provided by her Majesty's late Government in the last Session of Parliament; and what I propose to do is, to adopt those estimates, without exception, as they were framed by her Majesty's late Ministers, and to submit them to the House exactly in the form in which they were proposed by them to the last Parliament. The course pursued on former occasions has been to take, by one vote, the remaining sum which might be required to provide for those services; but, in the present instance, these estimates themselves have not been submitted to the detailed consideration of the House. A sum was taken on account in the last Session; and I apprehend that it would be more desirable, and more satisfactory to the House, that the estimates should be taken into consideration in detail now, rather than one sum should be taken in gross to provide for the public service. I propose, therefore, to submit each sum to the House in detail, and to take a separate vote with respect to each of them. I know not, Sir, that it is necessary to make any proposition to the House, with respect to estimates for any other services than those which were included in the estimates presented to the House Session of Parliament; but there is one item of expenditure, at the same time, to which it will be my duty to direct its attention. It is connected with that particular item of expenditure to which I have already referred, namely, the additional sum which will be required with reference to the construction of the two new Houses of Parliament now in process of erection. The works connected with those buildings are now advanced to such a period, that if the two Houses of Parliament shall determine that it is desirable that mode of warming and ventilating the new Houses, similar to that which has been provided for this House, should be adopted, it will be necessary that provision should at once be made for that purpose. The state of those buildings is such, that the flues and other works necessary to the carrying out of that design must be immediately provided. If these works are to be undertaken, they must, the House will perceive, be commenced without further delay. I cannot but think, however, that it is not fit that anything in connection with a work of such magnitude as the building of the new Houses of Parliament should be carried out by money from the Treasury without that money being first voted under the sanction of the House of Commons. On a former occasion, upon a question of a similar nature, a committee was appointed by each House to consider the subject, and, in my opinion, it would be convenient and proper that a similar course should be pursued in the present instance. I think it is advisable, that a sum of money, amounting, if the works are to be carried out in accordance with the propositions of Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry, to between 80,000l. and 90,000l., should not be expended without having received the previous sanction and approbation of Parliament. If, therefore, any committee shall be appointed upon this subject, I can only express my hope and trust, that it will confine itself to the consideration of the object for which it will be nominatedthat it will limit its inquiries entirely to the consideration of the proposed mode of heating and ventilating the new Housesand that it will not extend it to anything which may cause inconvenience or interference in the progress of those works. Sir, it will be my intention to propose a bill to continue in operation those laws which would expire within a limited period with out the intervention of Parliament. There are some laws which would expire within a period definitely fixed, and others that would expire at the end of the first Session of Parliament. With respect to these laws, I would submit to the House the propriety of extending them to a definite period. Of these the most important is unquestionably the Poorlaw Act. That part of that Act which constitutes the Poor-law commission will expire on the 31st of December next unless it shall previously have been renewed. I shall, propose, therefore, to continue that bill as it stands to the 31st of July, 1842, in order to enable her Majesty's Government to consider, in the mean time, the nature of those provisions which they may think it their duty to bring forward in connection with the Poor-law. There are, also, other laws, some of them of greater, and some of lesser importance, which will expire at an early day, or at the end of the present Session of Parliament, and with regard to these laws I shall propose bills to secure their further operation to a definite period. The Poorlaw Act, however, involves a most important principle, and it will be for the House to decide, whether or not it will be the most convenient course that that Act shall be extended for the present by means of a continuance bill. If a strong opinion should be expressed on the part of the House, that the continuance of the Poorlaw should be provided for by means of a further and separate law upon the subject, rather than by the manner to which I have referred, I shall be ready, although I have an objection to load the statutebook unnecessarily, to listen to any suggestions on the part of the House upon the subject. With regard to election petitions, Sir, it appears to me, that it will be for the general interest and convenience of the House to adopt no precedent respecting them at present. I believe, that under the present law relating to such petitions, no Act of the House is necessary in order to suspend proceedings connected with them, but that it rests with the general committee on election petitions to appoint and determine the days on which they shall be heard, and I trust that the House will feel, that it would be highly inexpedient to proceed with the consideration of any election petition at the present time. With respect to the financial arrangements of the country, VOL. LIX. {} Third my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will, on the earliest day on which a committee of ways and means can be fixed, state to the House what is the extent of the deficiency to be provided for, viz., the difference between the revenue and the estimated expenditure of the present year. I apprehend, that that deficiency will be found not to fall short of the estimate given by the right hon. Gentleman, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that it is probable, that a sum of 2,500,000l. will have to be provided for the service of the present year. My right hon. Friend will inform the House with respect to the details of the particular classes of deficiency on the occasion to which I have referred, and will avail himself of that opportunity of stating the nature of the measures it will be his intention to propose, with a view to make temporary provision for the removal of the deficiency in question. With reference to measures, however, of a more permanent character which it may be necessary to adopt with regard to the equalisation of the revenue with the expenditure of the country, it is not my intention, during the present Session of Parliament, to submit any propositions to the consideration of the House. I have, as the House is aware, already stated my opinion, that it is absolutely necessary that some means should be provided to equalise the revenue with the expenditure, and it is our intention to avail ourselves of the earliest opportunity, after, and consistent with, the maturest consideration of all the circumstances of the country, of submitting to Parliament measures for the remedy of the existing evil. Whether that remedy can be best effected by a diminution of the expenditure or an increase of the revenue of the country, or whether it can be best secured by a combination of these two means; namely, by a diminution of expenditure and an increase of revenue, is a question which I must postpone for future consideration. It is sufficient for me to state a strong opinion that it is impossible that the country, consistently with a due regard to the public service, can continue to proceed in the course which, perhaps unavoidably, has been pursued for the last few years; viz., that of creating a large deficiency in time of peace, and incurring a considerable debt. But as to the mode in which that great evil can be remedied, I must ask for that S |