Earl Fitzwilliam remarked upon the statement of the noble Earl, that the] of Winchilsea was anxious to have an

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, August 27, 1841.

MINUTES] Bill.

Read a second time:-Navy Pay. Petitions presented. By Mr. F. French, from Roscommon, by Mr. Easthope, from Leicester, and other places, and by Mr. M. Phillips, from the Conference at Manchester, for an Alteration in, or Repeal of the Corn-laws; from Wexford, for Remuneration to Medical Witnesses.

opportunity of seeing the correspondence between Government and a gentleman of the name of Lacon, respecting some recent transactions in the borough of Yarmouth. The charge against the corporation was, that a certain number of constables, being voters, had been dismissed, in order that they might vote at the late Elections Petitions, Complaining of, for Harwich, Wigan, election, and that on the following day they were re-appointed constables, and paid for their trouble. The borough seemed. to have been put to a considerable expense, and the conduct of the magistrates, if the charge were true, had been most unconstitutional.

The Marquess of Normanby had not only no objection to the production of the correspondence, but was most desirous that it should be laid upon the Table. The noble Earl would find from it, that he was labouring under considerable misinformation. Mr. Lacon imagined that constables were disqualified as voters ex officio, but misapprehension seemed to have prevailed on the point. The men, as he was informed, without any bargain, had bona fide tendered their resignation, and no doubt had been afterwards reappointed, There had been, however, no understanding that they should be so reappointed, and having resigned, had received no salary. Therefore the borough of Yarmouth had not suffered at all in its funds.

Rutland, and Waterford City.

ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO THE SPEECHOn the Order of the Day for resuming the ADJOURNED DEBATE, FOURTH NIGHT.] adjourned debate,

Mr. R. Milnes addressed the House. The hon. Member believed the prolongation of the debate could not be satisfactory either to the House or the country. It could not be satisfactory to hon. Gentlemen opposite themselves to make statements, which because they were not answered, could not be supposed to be irrefragable. Gentlemen opposite would wish the question to be considered as one of principle on their side, and as one of party on the other. and this was nothing more or less than to place the subject in a false light before the country. Gentlemen knew this question was not, abstractedly considered, the question of the Corn-laws. The men, as well as the measures, were the subject of decision, and could not be separated. Person and party were involved in the question, and the hon. mover of the Address put the question in a The Earl of Wicklow observed, that the form which he knew they could not grapple constables thought themselves disqualified, with. Yes, the question was put forward in a and if the magistrates were of the same manner with which they could not grapple, opinion, and had discharged them merely because they knew it only ought to be for the purpose of the election, the cul- grappled with by men who occupied a lepability on their part was as great, al-gitimate and distinct position in the counthough they had acted under misappre-sation against the Government was, that try. They knew that the principal accuhension of the law. If so, they were they brought forward those measures imunworthy of their situations, and he wished pertinently and injudiciously, as they must to know what was the belief of the ma-have been aware that a satisfactory decision gistrates on the point?

Earl Fitzwilliam: How can the noble Marquess tell us what was the belief of the magistrates?

The Earl of Wicklow: Because the noble Marquess said he had made inquiries.

The Marquess of Normanby repeated, that he had not the slightest objection to the production of the correspondence, and the magistrates would thus be enabled to speak for themselves. Adjourned.

could not have been arrived at; and when they heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer stating that the question, regarded as one of revenue, shrunk into nothing before the moral and political questions involved, they heard it admitted as strongly as they could that it was only nominally a financial question, for that in reality it concealed other and higher considerations. He was unwilling to prolong a debate which ought for all practical and reasonable purposes to be shortened as much as possible, and which should be left to the leaders of the great parties in this country. The country had seen by the history of the

the House. This was to him a matter of surprise, considering that the resolution taken by the mover of the amendment to the Address had not been taken at the spur of the moment, but had been the result of a meeting that had taken place at the House of the right hon. Baronet opposite. The hon. Member who had just sat down had explained the real secret why hon. Members on that side of the House had not spoken; he had stated that they could not grapple with the statements of the hon. Member for Manchester. He wished to say one word on the subject of the Corn-laws, which had not as yet been alluded to. He hoped that there were some hon. Members connected with agricultural districts present, because he was anxious to call their attention to the important modes in which agricultural operations were carried on in

the southern counties of Scotland, in

present Government, that a Government resting upon every-day popularity could not deserve the enduring confidence of the people. Such a Government was obliged by its very existence to affect a confidence in itself beyond the limits of record, to make matters essential, which it knew to be only subsidiary, and to make promises and offer expectations, which it knew could not be performed and realized. The hon. Member for Bath had said the other night that it was an amiable weakness on the part of the Government, that they had expressed a desire to pass measures which they had not the power of carrying. He thought that in politics, as in daily life, it was the business of reasonable men to desire only that which was attainable; and this appeared to him to be one distinction between the Government which was about to be formed and the present one, that the former would try to effect only that which it believed to be practically and immediately within their grasp. The appeal which had been made to the country was of two kinds; it was an appeal as to measures, and an appeal as to men. The country had decided as to the value of measures and the choice of men. And therefore, a Government situated like her Majesty's Government should feel every day's detention of office a burthen upon their backs. They were not in the position in which the Government of a free country ought to be, and they should rejoice in the hope of being liberated from office. He wished, for the sake of the historical reputation of this country, that her Majesty's Government had retired earlier from office; that they had not waited for a process of legal rejection. The few words which he had uttered would, he trusted, recal to hon. Gentlemen the real gist of the question before the House and show that the question before them was upon whom devolved the responsibility of governing the country.

Roxburghshire and the three Lothians. It appeared to him that the landowners had not brought to their aid the improvements which machinery had rendered available, as the manufacturers had done. By that means all the manufacturers had been enabled to carry on a competition with the manufacturers of the continent, and if a similar practice had prevailed among the agriculturists they would have had less objection to the ports being thrown open to the importation of foreign corn. The improved rents which were ob tained in Scotland and the north of England were a proof that it was to enlightened agricultural improvements they owed their superiority over the English farmers. The country now found itself in a position of very great difficulty. Neither side had yet denied the great distress that existed amongst the millions of manufacturers of this country. They had called those millions into existence, and those millions Mr. Rennie said, he had not intended must be fed. He never yet heard of to offer any observations for the consider- any wish on the part of those who repreation of the House, had it not been for sented the manufacturers that that interest the great change that had taken place in should be propped up at the expense of the manner of treating the present debate the landed interest. All they asked was by hon. Members opposite. The hon. equal justice-that they might be allowed Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire to exchange their commodities for the brought forward his amendment; he told commodities of other countries; and be the House that the real question was one thought that the landed proprietors, if of confidence or no confidence; but, al- they understood their true interest, would though every speaker up to the middle of before this question was pushed too far, last night concurred in those sentiments, concede what was now so reasonably dehe had heard a great change in the sentimanded of them. He would only repeat ments of those who had since addressed in conclusion, that the time was come

when something should be done to satisfy the vote by ballot, and of inducing her the minds of the people of this country. Majesty's Ministers to review their conHe believed the people of England were duct, and to render the Reform Bill what essentially Conservative, but not so in the it was intended it should be. It was persense of hon. Gentlemen opposite. They fectly well known, that a great and deeply had changed their name, but he did not lamented Statesman, the late Lord Durthink they were entitled to be called Con- ham, had said, that a certain individual, servatives. The only politicians who had whose name he did not mention, but who not changed their name were the Whigs. was believed to have been one of the MinHe trusted that when the right hon. Ba-isters who seceded, and was now a leading ronet came into power he would not allow the Session to pass without proposing measures for the alleviation of the sufferings of the people.

Member on the Opposition benches, the Member for Dorchester, was one of the principal opponents of its being more largely extended. Then let them look at the distress of the country, a distress, he solemnly believed, greatly aggravated by the Currency Bill of 1819, which was brought forward by the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, and which he could not designate otherwise than as one of the most reckless, and at the same time, one of the most gross pieces of political ignorance ever inflicted on the country. The landed interest ought to pay a greater portion of the national debt than any other class of the community. That debt had not been incurred to grant protection to the thews and sinews of the labouring men; still less did Peel's Bill give them protection, and the Cornlaws had been inflicted on the country as a matter of traffic between the landed interest and the Government of the day, to save the landed interest as much as possible from the effects of Peel's Bill. He held in his hand a pamphlet which had been written fourteen years ago by the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Dorchester. That pamphlet had been presented to him (Mr. Wallace) by the right hon. Gentleman himself, at the time that he was car

Mr. Wallace thought, it was the duty of the House to discuss, at the earliest opportunity, the great questions referred to in the Speech from the Throne. He knew that hon. Gentlemen opposite claimed to themselves the right to represent the feelings of the people of England, but for his part he felt persuaded that no claim could be more unfounded. He believed in despite of the late elections that the people throughout the country were thoroughly favourable to Reform, and he was sure that if attention had been paid to what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford), namely, the improvement and the perfection of the Reform Bill, the phalanx opposite could not count the numbers which they now arranged in hostility to the Government. If her Majesty's Government had carried out the principles which they had promulgated in bringing forward the Reform Bill, no such majority would be seated opposite that day. Above all, if the Ballot had been passed, the dominion of Conservatism would have been at an end. ["Hear, hear,"] They had only to observe how unpalateable the mention of such sub-rying on a correspondence with that right jects had ever been to the party opposite. ["Ironical cheers from the Opposition."] He was glad to hear those cheers, for he had never been cheered by the hon. Gentlemen opposite but when he had said something that was just and true. He would repeat, that all that was necessary for the triumph of the popular party was the extension of popular rights. He was chairman of three political unions, and he declared most sincerely he believed he was then discharging his duty to his country; and he would say of the people of his part of the country, that he would do all in his power to persusde them to agitation, for the purpose of getting an extension of the franchise, of obtaining

hon. Gentleman relating to political matters as well as to the currency. He had read that pamphlet again within the course of the last few days, and agreed cordially with every sentiment it contained. He had seen no reason to change his opinions on the subject, and he considered that pamphlet contained more truth, more information, and was more generally useful, than any book that had been published on the subject. Why the right hon. Gentleman should have changed his opinion he would not then stop to inquire. He verily believed, that the greater part of the distress of the country was to be attributed to the Corn-laws. He had always been decidedly in favour of the immediate abo

lition of those laws, and as long as he had | greatest satisfaction, his support to the a seat in that House he would demand a Address. He would add, that if any hoa. total and immediate abolition of the Corn- Members in that House, or parties withlaws. But in public matters he would out the House, would join him in an always be content to take a part when Address to the Crown, he would endeshe could not get all, and not follow the vour to frame such an Address, and pot example of some hon. Gentlemen who his name to it, and it would be to the refused roast beef because they could not effect, that her Majesty should refuse to get bread and cheese as well. He, how- sanction any new Ministry whatever untd ever, considered that a duty of 8s. was far she could guarantee to the country that too much, and more than the working they would explicitly state the means by class could afford. And now, with respect which they would do better than their preto the Corn-law. He solemnly believed, decessors. that the great proportion of the distress existing in this country was attributable to that law. He believed, that the want of employment for operatives, of a return for capital, and of commercial enterprise by the distress of the Bank of England, all the evils of the currency, and the innumerable bankruptcies, which had gone on increasing from year to year, and now increase more rapidly than ever, were attributable to that cause. Since the year 1837 there had been one continued course of bankruptcy thronghout the country, and it was entirely owing to the Cornlaws. The Bank of England had not sufficient capital to send abroad gold to buy corn. That Bank was, in fact, a joint. stock bank, and it ought to be called by that name. He had reason to believe, that twice since 1837 the Bank had been on the point of suspending its payments, and it was difficult to say what might yet occur. He hoped they would have fine weather for the harvest, and that the crops would be abundant. But if it should be otherwise--if it should happen that they had to send out gold to buy 3,000,000 quarters of foreign corn in the present distressed state of the commercial and manufacturing interests -he believed the consequences would be, that the Bank must suspend its payments, and he must add, that he was by no treans sure, that a suspension of payments by the Bank of England would not be for the good of the country. There was one other point which he wished to mention. He wished to declare himself, in the language of the hon. Member for Stockport, an out-and-out free-trader His own interests were vested chiefly in the land, but the constituency which he represented were too liberal, and too well-informed, to suppose that they sent him there to secure his own interest, and to neglect theirs. He would conclude | by stating, that he would give, with the

Mr. Hindley had given way to the noble Lord the Member for Liverpool last night, because he had expected that noble Lord to break through the prudent tactturnity which had been hitherto preserved on the opposite side of the House, and because he was anxious to hear what would be said on such a question as the present by the representative of that great constituency which had formerly been represented by that enlightened opponent of monopoly, Mr. Huskisson. He had been disappointed; but from what he knew of that constituency he was sure that it had not decided in favour of monopoly against free trade. What private arrangements the noble Lord might have made with his constituents-what pledges he might have given to the merchants of Liverpool, he could not tell; but the presence of the noble Lord in that House was to him a conclusive proof that the hon. Gentlemen opposite had not been universally returned as the advocates of monopoly. He rose to bear his testimony to the statements of the hon. Mover of the Address as to the distress of the operatives; but they had been told that the question was as to the existence of an Administration, and he was truly sorry to find that when thousands and hundreds of thousands of our fellow-citizens were suffering the deepes, distress so little was thought of their calamities, and that the attention of that House was mainly directed to the question who should direct the Government of this great country. The majority would of course use its power; it would not permit them to discuss the great questions that had been submitted to the House, and they must abide by the decision of that tyrant majority. When the hon. Gentle men opposite bad got into power he trusted that they would produce such measures as would alleviate the present distress. There were hundreds in his