1095 Financial Measures

{LORDS} Late and Pres. Administration. 1096

rary expedient, an expedient worse than a loan, nay, an expedient so objectionable that even the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that it was so bad, that it ought not to be drawn into precedent? He did not object to it, but he thought that it was singularly inconsistent with the arguments used by noble Lords opposite on the "no confidence" amendment to the Address. It was strange that the very first step of the new Government should be as bad as any of those for which they had objected to the late Government. If Government were determined on taking the course they now pursued, they were

have carried that before or after, with or without argument, as they pleased. He repeated that they had no right to call the attention of Parliament to the financial difficulties of the country, unless they were prepared with an immediate inquiry into them. It was different with the late Government.

that now before the House, should have been proposed, and should have received the sanction of Parliament; knowing that there was a deficit in the revenue, and knowing that, in the opinion of Government, there was not sufficient time to consider the question of taxation, the only course that could be adopted was, as the deficit must be made up in some way, of borrowing or funding. He did not see any particular objection to the form in which it was done. He had, however, one objection to the plan, and that to be sure was a serious one-namely, that it had failedthat the Government had not succeeded in raising the money, or in funding their Ex-not justified in making that motion. They chequer Bills. He was the last man who had no right to call the attention of Parwould say anything calculated to have liament to the financial difficulties of the any injurious effect upon public credit; country, unless they were prepared to and he was very unlikely to say any- enter into the consideration of them with thing that could have such an effect; the view to the proposal of some remedy. but, considering the language which the Such a course was not necessary to their Government had held with respect to the" no confidence" motion, for they might finances of the country, and the state of the country, they should have taken care not to fail. They should have commanded success; and even if they had made a worse bargain, or had worse terms than the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, (and he rather feared they were actuated by some such motives,) they should have endeavoured to carry their point. In saying this, let him not be misunderstood as objecting to the measure before them, but he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to what might be considered the manifesto or basis of the motion by the noble President of the Board of Trade, which had led to the late change in the Government. That speech had been characterised by his noble and learned Friend near him as a very able and eloquent speech; and he admitted it to be so; but, able as it was, it was insufficient to support the superstructure which had been founded upon it. He did not deny its eloquence, but there were many able and eloquent speeches which were afterwards found to be very inconvenient. One great objection made in that speech was, that the late Government had never met the difficulties of the country, or grappled with its financial embarrassments in a fair, straightforward, and manly manner. They were accused of tampering with the finances by temporary expedients. Now, let him ask any of those by whom these objections were made, what was the measure now before the House but a tempo

With them the introduction of the subject was quite consistent, because they were prepared with measures to remedy the difficulties to which they had called the attention of Parliament; but it was not, he again said, fair of the new Government to bring on the subject, considering the arguments they had used against the course pursued by the late Government. On this subject he could not omit to notice what had been said for some time by men now very high in office against the measures of the late Government, and more particularly what had lately fallen from his noble Friend (the Earl of Ripon) on the same subject in a late debate in that House, who spoke of the necessity of considering the "immense financial difficulties in which the country was involved." Now, he must say that it was not fair, it was not correct, it was not proved, it was not just to the country, to say that it was involved in immense financial difficulties. He did not mean to deny that there were difficulties, but he did assert that they were not immense, and that it was a great over statement and exaggeration so to describe them. The state of the finances demanded to be considered seriously, and

1097

Financial Measures- {OCT. 43 Late and Pres. Administration. 1098

to be met energetically; but he repeated | The expenditure was found to exceed the they were not in "immense difficulty," income of the country. They must then and considering the general state of the either reduce the expenditure or raise the country, the amount of its revenue, its income. In the present state of the counresources, and its strength, he must say try he feared that they could not do the that it was not wise or prudent to use that former, but that, on the contrary, an indesponding tone in speaking of them, and creased expenditure would be necessary that such language must have the effect though he hoped it might not be so. of weakening those resources and of di. But his noble Friend, (the Earl of Ripon) minishing that strength. He freely ad- who seemed to fear that an increased exmitted that there were difficulties to be penditure would be necessary, proposedmet; but he begged leave utterly, dis- what? An immediate consideration of tinctly, shortly, and emphatically-in the subject? No, but for time to consiwords, which being short would be more der it! For what did he require time? easily understood, to deny that the late Was he looking for the philosopher's Government had delivered over the coun- stone? or was he endeavouring to distry, or any branch of its revenue, in a dangerous state, or its finances in im- was it was reasonable to ask for time, and cover the transmutation of metals? If he mense difficulties, to its successors in he was ready to grant it; but, as he supoffice. His noble Friend (the Earl of posed that that was not the case, he saw Ripon) had said, that some decided, no reason for deferring to a future day vigorous, and efficient scheme of Govern- important matters which required immediment was necessary, and then he came ate consideration. But why should his down with his own scheme, which had all noble Friend defer a subject which he the defects that had been attributed to himself had assured their Lordships he those of the late Government, and this had been considering for two years? additional defect-that it added to the Surely that was time enough to show at funded debt of the country, without mak-least that in the immediate consideration ing any provision for the interest, which was precisely the objection made by the noble Duke (Duke of Wellington) to the Government proposition for funding Exchequer Bills in 1838 or 1839, he did not remember which. The noble Duke had then said, that he did not object to the funding, but he did object to the not making some provision for the interest, and yet now he was a party to a measure to which the same objection would lie. He would not say, that the measure taken by the Government was wrong, but they were not justified in adopting it after the language they had held, and after the Address they had carried up to the foot of the Throne. What had they been called together for? and for what reason were they now about to separate without doing any- finance as others, nor was he so much He was not so great a theorist in thing with reference to the great questions afraid as others of the consequences of as to which the country looked for some- change; but he must say, that considerthing to be done at the hands of the Go-ing the language held by Ministers, and vernment? If, as was said, the finances the important votes to which their objecof the country were involved in immense tions had led, it was not a measure which difficulty, surely their condition ought to they were entitled to propose. be an object of immediate consideration. What was it which they had to consider? There was no mystery in it-there was nothing which could prevent the subject from being well understood. They had to decide on one or other of two courses.

of it now he could not be said to be taken by surprise. The noble Duke thought that the lateness of the season of the year, and the consequent difficulty of securing liament, would prevent the full discussion a full attendance in the Houses of Parof the great measures which would be brought under their consideration. Now, he could point out to the noble Duke a plan by which he could insure a full attendance. Let him only give notice of a motion relating to the importation of foreign corn, and he might rely upon it he would not lack a very full attendance in both Houses until that question should be disposed of. Again, let him say with respect to this bill, that he did not object to it.

to be amused when his noble Friend (the
The Earl of Ripon was always disposed
noble Viscount) chose to be jocular, and
he was not the less so when his noble
Friend's jocularity was directed against
himself. He did not feel that he was

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{LORDS} Late and Pres. Administration. 1100

called upon to enter into a justification of a speech which he had made on a former evening, and which his noble Friend might have replied to at the time, but which he now chose to notice, after many days' consideration. With respect to the bill before the House, he did not know in what degree his noble Friend was opposed or favourable to it. He did object to it, and he did not; he

"Hints a doubt, and hesitates dislike." Viscount Melbourne did not object to the bill.

to fall into such a mistake; but no person knew better than did his noble Friend, that no one part of our financial system could be touched without, directly or indirectly, affecting some great commercial, or manufacturing, or trading interest, and that one such interest could not be affected without in some degree affecting all the rest. It would not do, therefore, to take an isolated view of one part of the scheme of financial and commercial policy. It would be necessary to take a full, and comprehensive, and common-sense view of the whole. Ilis noble Friend well The Earl of Ripon: His noble Friend knew, from his experience, that the science did not object to the bill; but there was of Government, whether legislative or one thing to which he did object, and in executive, was, in fact, neither more nor very strong language, too. He objected, less than a perpetually recurring struggle that the measure was a failure. Now, he with difficulties. They might be got over must deny, that it was a failure; for his or evaded for a time, but they would again right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the recur, and Government or Parliament Exchequer, though he had not raised all would be perpetually called on to provide the money which he had first intended, for their recurrence, and there was no had raised a million more than was suff-surer way of being overwhelmed by them, cient to cover the deficit. But then his than to rush with breathless haste into the noble Friend contended, that the Govern- adoption of great and extensive schemes ment were not justified in bringing in such of Government or legislation, without a measure as this, which all must admit, mature consideration. That, in his mind, was a temporary expedient, on account of was a sufficient justification for the course the amendment which they had moved to pursued by the present Government, and the Address. What was it, let him ask, to have proposed any other, at the present which had called the attention of Parlia- time, and under present circumstances, ment to the subject? Was it not the would have been perfect madness. When notice in the Speech from the Throne? his noble Friend talked of a loan, he must The Government were bound to bring have been aware, that if Parliament had their measures forward, having had ample adopted the plan proposed by his Governtime to prepare them. But if other Gen- ment, it could not have been carried out tlemen moved an amendment to the Ad-without the aid of a loan. There would dress and carried it, did it follow, that they were at once to be prepared with a whole batch of measures in opposition to those referred to in the Speech, or was an individual to be precluded from moving an amendment unless he was prepared to strike off at once a new system of commercial and financial policy? The idea was absurd, and no man knew, that it was so, better than his noble Friend. The present Government were, therefore, not liable to the reproach cast on them by his noble Friend. If, coming into office nearly at the beginning of September, they had undertaken to propound a whole scheme of finance and a revision from beginning to end of our whole commercial system, the country would have laughed at them as fools, or rejected them as madmen. It was easy for persons not practically acquainted with such matters

have been no other way to cover the deficiencies of the year. The whole amount of the deficiency was 2,400,000l., of which it was assumed, that 1,700,000l. would be raised by the proposed alteration in the taxes or duties on certain articles. That scheme was, to say the least of it, doubtful, and he defied his noble Friend, or any man of business, to show, that if it had been carried into operation, it would be possible between this and April, 1842, to make up the deficiency without a loan. It had not been his intention to say what he had said; indeed, the outbreak of his noble Friend had been so unexpected, that it had come upon him, to use his noble Friend's own expression, like a clap of thunder. If the present Government had taken the course which his noble Friend seemed to thing they ought to have taken, they would have deceived the people,

order and subordination by the five months' sojourn of a Roman Catholic priest.

Lord Ellenborough would not follow the noble Lord through his remarks, but he would tell him what he had done on the subject of the Roman Catholic priesthood in India, to which he had before called the attention of their Lordships. He had sent by the mail of that day, the first that had been dispatched since the speech of the noble Lord, letters to the Governorgeneral of India, as well as to the Governor of the Presidency of Madras, asking for the fullest information on the subject; and he had himself written a letter to the collectoral magistrate of Madura, sending him the report of what had taken place in their Lordships' House on the former occasion, and demanding explanation of his alleged misconduct. The noble Lord had talked of the discipline of certain regiments in India. He was quite sure that there was not an undisciplined regiment in the Presidency of Madras, and he was equally sure that their discipline had not been caused by any Roman Catholic priest. If he had understood the noble Lord he would not follow him, because it was not necessary; but he did not understand him, and so he could not.

Petition laid on the Table.
Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, October 5, 1841.

MINUTES.] Bills. Read a third time:-Exchequer Bills
Funding; Exchequer Bills Appropriation; Poor-law

Commission; Population Payments.-Received the Royal

Assent:-Administration of Justice (No. 2).; Expiring

Laws; Navy Pay; Lunatics; Foreign Bishops'; Frog more Lodge; Royal Gardens; Riddell's Estate; Marl

borough's Estate; Clayton's Name.

Petitions presented. By the Earl of Ripon, from New
Brunswick, against an abolition of the Timber Duties.-

Session, for the drainage of towns, the improvement of building regulations, and the improvement of certain boroughs. He had introduced them in consequence of a report of the other House, and from his own information, and observations of the evils which they were to remedy. The subject had been thoroughly investigated by a committee of their Lordships, and the bill had been sent down to the other House, where he believed the principle was not opposed, but the termination of the Session prevented its being proceeded with. Their Lordships had again sent down the bill this Session, but a similar reason prevented its being proceeded with in the other House. He had expressed to the right hon. Gentleman who succeeded him in the Home Office, his sense of the importance of these measures, and the question he now wished to put, was, whether Government had determined to adopt them as far as the principle went. If the noble Duke gave him such an assurance, he would much rather leave them in the hands of the Government, but if he received no such assurance, he took that opportunity of giving notice, that unless his health prevented him from being present at the commencement of next Session, he should, on the first day of the assembling of Parliament, bring forward his bill again, and trust to the noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire, as an independent Member, who took an interest in the subject, for getting it through the other House.

Lord Ellenborough had communicated with his right hon. Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department, on the subject, and expressed the anxiety felt by the majority of their Lordships on the subject. His right hon. Friend represented that the bill must necessarily undergo investigation

By the Earl of Kinnaird, from Brechin, and other by a committee of the House of Commons,

places, and by the Earl of Radnor, from Devizes, and a number of other places, for the Repeal of the Cornlaws.

FUNDING OF EXCHEQUER BILLS DRAINAGE OF TOWNS.] Lord Ellenborough moved the third reading of the Funding Exchequer Bills Bill.

The Marquess of Normanby wished to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the noble Duke opposite, to a portion of the public business to which he attached considerable importance. He alluded to the measures which he had brought forward on the first day of the

that there was a new opposition to some of the details, and that it was practically impossible to proceed with it in the course of the present Session. With respect to the noble Marquess's question, he could only say, that the Government had as yet no opportunity of looking into the bill, and were not prepared to say, whether, as a Government, they would take it up. It should, however, receive their most attentive consideration during the recess, and they would state what they were prepared to do at the commencement of next Session,