Mr. ROBERTS. You are approving a valuation of property which was not authorized by the original paragraph 7 of the act of 1913. Mr. REID. We are not doing that.

Mr. GIBSON. We do not want to do that.

Mr. REID. We are not attempting to do that.

Mr. GIBSON. We can not do it. The point was to bring out whether this attempted to do it.

Mr. REID. That is what I want to know.

Mr. GIBSON. I think you stated that Great Falls-it appears somewhere that Great Falls was left out, and that one of these companies owns some rights, riparian or otherwise.

Mr. ROBERTS. The Washington Railway & Electric Co. owns or controls the Great Falls Power Co. which, I believe, is the controller or owner of certain riparian and other rights at Great Falls or its vicinity in Maryland.

Mr. GIBSON. And that is left out?

Mr. ROBERTS. That is not transferred to the new company, but is retained by the Washington Railway & Electric Co. in its capacity as a holding company.

Mr. GIBSON. And passes indirectly to the control of the North American Co.?

Mr. ROBERTS. Through its control of the Washington Railway & Electric Co.; yes, sir.

Mr. REID. Ask him right there, should that be in?

Mr. GIBSON. Should that be in?

Mr. ROBERTS. I have not said so, sir.

Mr. REID. What do you mean by that? We want to know.

Mr. GIBSON. We want to know. You referred to it, or somebody has referred to it. Do you think that it should be in?

Mr. ROBERTS. In the unification of the transit systems of the District of Columbia?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. I do not know what effect my answer will have

Mr. REID. Tell the truth without regard to the effect.

Mr. ROBERTS. I generally do so. I will say no, that I can not see that it has any relation to the transit systems in the District of Columbia.

Mr. GIBSON. But so far as Great Falls is concerned

Mr. REID (interposing). That was not the question; whether it should be included in this unification?

Mr. GIBSON. He said no.

Mr. ROBERTS. I do not think so.

Mr. GIBSON. The only connection Great Falls can have with this is if the Government should decide to develop Great Falls, and you say that these companies would still be bound to buy power from the Potomac Electric Power Co. even if they could get it cheaper from Great Falls.

Mr. ROBERTS. I have great hesitancy, in view of the different understanding of Mr. Reid-I say that they would be bound for the life of the franchise of either company to buy power from the Potomac Electric Power Co.

Mr. GIBSON. That means forever, so far as the company is concerned?

Mr. ROBERTS. So far as the company is concerned.

Mr. GIBSON. May I say that I was asking these questions without being for or against your proposals, in order that the committee may have such a picture as I am able to give by the questions that I have asked?

Mr. REID. May I ask a few questions before I go? After we get through panning everybody-the bad holding companies and the bad directors of the different companies, etc.-when you get all through

Mr. ROBERTS (interposing). "We," you said, sir.

Mr. REID. Yes; I have probably done it better than you can do it or attempt to do it. After we get all through, and have done with all that, what is your reply as to whether we had better take this or nothing?

Mr. ROBERTS. I prefer to pass that to Mr. Clayton, who is the———— Mr. REID (interposing). No; you are not talking for anyone else here, are you? You are not a ventriloquist, are you? You are not sitting here representing Mr. Clayton, are you?

Mr. ROBERTS. I am representing the Federation of Citizens' Associations in the District of Columbia, and they have not voted on that subject.

Mr. REID. You seem to be intelligent in a lot of things. I know that you have the interests of all the people at heart. When we get all through, what would you say?

Mr. ROBERTS. My personal answer is that there is very, very little to gain for the people of the District of Columbia in this mergerthis particular merger at this particular time-unless there is further clarification of the rerouting and further clarification in accordance with the proposals of the Federation of Citizens' Associations is made; and that rather than take the thing as it is now, it will be infinitely better for the citizens of the District to wait for the pressure of a declining passenger traffic for a better merger agreement. That is my personal answer, and not the answer of the Federation of Citizens' Associations.

Mr. REID. How will that help the street-car rider? interested in the street-car rider?

Mr. ROBERTS. I am, sir.

Mr. REID. Will he be helped in any way by the delay?

Are you

Mr. ROBERTS. I can only answer this, that if you know you are going to get hit anyway, it is better to postpone it a day or two. Mr. REID. Having quit the Presbyterian Church and gone into the Methodist Church, I do not quite agree on that.

What is your idea as to the specific thing that this committee can do at this time that will get the street-car rider some help? That is what I would like to have you point out. I would like to know what this committee can do. We are not sitting as a public utilities commission. We can not under the law.

Mr. ROBERTS. I brought in a report of the Federation of Citizens' Associations which proposes certain modifications which should be made before approval of the resolution.

Mr. REID. And you want to stand on that?

Mr. ROBERTS. I will stand on that.

Mr. REID. Will you stand on that?

Mr ROBERTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. REID. Did you indicate that Mr. Yaden might have a personal or sinister interest on account of his being a director?

Mr. ROBERTS. I did not say that.

Mr. REID. Well, did you mean to intimate it?

Mr. ROBERTS. I will have to answer very frankly and say this: I have been extremely cautious in that connection; if you will allow me a little liberty in a personal matter of this kind?

Mr. REID. Go as far as you like.

Mr. ROBERTS. I have been extremely cautious in that connection, never at any time to say a word about Mr. Yaden's personal character. In fact, I was the seconder of a resolution within the Federation of Citizens' Associations seeking to disclaim improper intentions on the part of Mr. Yaden.

Mr. REID. Was not Mr. Yaden put on the board of the Washington Rapid Transit Co. with the advice of the Federation of Citizens' Associations, and did you not vote to have him so put on that board?

Mr. ROBERTS. He was not put on with the advice of the Federation of Citizens' Associations. He first received the offer, and then brought it to the-he accepted it tentatively and then came to the Federation of Citizens' Associations and asked that it be ratified. The whole thing was over inside of two minutes. I was at that meeting and did not object; I have since objected to it.

Mr. REID. You know that this was taken up with the Federation of Citizens' Associations before he accepted it?

Mr. ROBERTS. No, sir. I know nothing of the sort.

Mr. REID. I will ask to have read and put in the record-you do not want to do Mr. Yaden an injustice, do you?

Mr. ROBERTS. I certainly do not.

Mr. REID. I would like to have read and put into the record this letter in regard to Mr. Yaden's position. You have no objection to this going into the record? You referred to him yesterday, did you

not?

Mr. ROBERTS. In answer to queries, I will refer to anything that the committee asks me questions about to the best of my knowledge and as truthfully as I can.

Mr. REID. I would like to have that read, Mr. Chairman. Will you read it?

Mr. HAMMER. Let us first see what it is.

Mr. REID. Let Mr. Hammer read it.

Mr. HAMMER. No, sir; but I have a right as a member of the committee to see whether it is a proper thing to go into the record. Mr. REID. You have every right in the world. Nobody would attempt to take it away from you.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, if you wish

Mr. HAMMER. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this matter be referred to the chairman and he report to the committee as to whether it should go in the record or not. I do not know a thing about it; I do not know what it is.

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Mr. REID. Do you not think that my judgment is as good as yours at times as to whether a thing is proper to go into the record or not? Mr. HAMMER. A great deal better, no doubt, in your own opinion; I am sure of that.

Mr. REID. I did not want to read it. I am tired. I would be glad to have you read it, Judge, with the proper emphasis. It would go over better than in my monotone.

Mr. HAMMER. Do you know whether this correspondence is about this merger or not?

The CHAIRMAN. I never saw it until a moment ago, Mr. Hammer. Mr. HAMMER. It seems to be correspondence between Mr. Wilson and Mr. Yaden. I do not see any reason why it should not go into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a letter addressed to the House Committee on the District of Columbia.

Mr. HAMMER. But it contains letters from Mr. Yaden and Mr. Wilson. I have no objection to its going into the record.

Mr. REID. Judge, when you were away yesterday the witness took occasion to refer to Mr. Yaden, who has been before us a number of times, and indicated that he might be for House Joint Resolution 276 on account of some personal interest.

Mr. HAMMER. I am sorry that he did it if he did it.

Mr. REID. Mr. Yaden has seemed to me to be all right, and I was rather surprised

Mr. GIBSON. Let me state the fact for the record, as I understand it. Judge Gilbert asked him the question whether Mr. Yaden was a director in any of these companies and he answered stating the fact. I did not understand any inferences to be drawn therefrom.

Mr. GILBERT. If there was any inference, it was in the question rather than in the answer, and it was certainly far from my intention to infer anything.

Mr. REID. Let Judge Gilbert read it. It is not altogether fair, because Mr. Yaden holds a responsible position here and his attitude on this matter ought to be made clear.

Mr. GILBERT. The witness merely answered my question and in truthfully answering my question, I do not think the witness can be censured; if there is any fault to find, it should be in the question, not in the answer. As I said a moment ago, I did not intend to infer anything improper on Mr. Yaden's part.

Mr. HAMMER. Mr. Reid, you know what this contains, or some one has told you what it contains, or you would not offer it, I am quite

sure.

Mr. REID. I thought that it was very appropriate.

Mr. HAMMER. If you do, I have no objection in the world to its going in.

Mr. REID. Very well, then; will you read it? It is bad enough to do an injustice to a corporation. I hope the witness will not do it to an individual.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the Chair will read what has been presented to him.

(The matter referred to is as follows:)

FEDERATION OF CITIZENS' ASSOCIATIONS

OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA,
Washington, D. C., April 27, 1928.

The HOUSE COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA,

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.

GENTLEMEN: Yesterday, April 27, 1928, Mr. W. A. Roberts, vice chairman of the committee on public utilities of the Federation of Citizens' Associations, in response to a question asked by Congressman Gilbert stated in connection with the action of the Citizens' Advisory Council on the proposed merger of the street-railway systems of Washington, that I am a member of the board of directors of the Washington Rapid Transit Co. Mr. Roberts, however, failed to state how I came to be on the board of directors of the Washington Rapid Transit Co.

Under date of January 12, 1928, Mr. H. P. Wilson, the principal stockholder of the Washington Rapid Transit Co., wrote to me as follows:

DEAR MR. YADEN: For many years past it has been one of my policies as an operator of public utilities throughout the country to invite to membership on the boards of directors of those utilities at least one representative of, what I am pleased to term, the public interests. I have always believed that the problems of public-utility operation are mutual to the investor in the utility itself and to the public, whose servant it is; and I believe that the best interests of all concerned are served through having in direct contact with the business of the company a public representative.

The annual stockholders' meeting of the Washington Rapid Transit Co. has been held to-day, and it gives me pleasure, indeed, to invite you to become a member of our board of directors for the ensuing year, or until your successor is elected and qualified. You will understand, of course, that you are privileged to withdraw from the board at any time you see fit. It is our sincere belief and desire that you will approve our policies and aid and assist us in working out the problems that confront us. We want your advice and assistance, and believe that your presence on our board will prove not only helpful to the company but insure through you a more thorough knowledge on the part of the public as to just what we are doing in our sincere desire to serve them. Very truly yours,

The same day I replied to Mr. Wilson, as follows:

H. P. WILSON.

MY DEAR MR. WILSON: I have your letter of January 12 in which you state that for many years past it has been one of your policies as an operator of public utilities throughout the country to invite to membership on the boards of directors of those utilities at least one representative of what you are pleased to term, the public interests. You also state that you have always believed that the problems of public-utility operation are mutual to the investor in the utility itself and to the public, whose servant it is; and you believe that the best interests of all concerned are served through having a public representative. You invite me to become a member of the board of directors of the Washington Rapid Transit Co. because of my connection with organized citizenship in the District of Columbia. You state that you believe this will insure a more thorough knowledge on the part of the public as to just what the Washington Rapid Transit Co. is doing in a sincere way to serve the public.

You know, of course, that I have no pecuniary interest or monetary investment in the Washington Rapid Transit Co. You are also aware that I am honored by being president of the Federation of Citizens' Associations of the District of Columbia and ex officio chairman of the Citizens' Advisory Council. I believe that your invitation to me, by virtue of the position which I hold with organized citizenship, is a sincere desire to bring into harmony and to secure a mutual understanding between the Washington Rapid Transit Co. and the car-riding public.

With the understanding that membership on the board of directors of the Washington Rapid Transit Co. does not in any way handicap me as president of the Federation of Citizens' Associations, and in view of the further fact that I have no monetary investment in the Washington Rapid Transit Co. which would tend to cause me to swerve in the least in my fidelity to organized citizenship