General LEBER. It is right down here at the Pacific end of the canal. The boundary is marked in an orange line that generally runs here. The yellow part of this is Panama, the white part is Canal Zone.

This street that runs along here is Fourth of July Avenue.

There are just continuous routine problems that occur along there. With the two police forces working together, you avoid incidents. If they were not working together, you could just have problems all the time.

General MATHER. May I add something there?

Mr. FASCELL. Certainly.

General MATHER. We of course have military police down there. We have very good relationships with the Guardia Nacional police. We have joint patrols to take care of any problems that might arise with our soldiers who might get into trouble downtown. Beyond that, we have liaison with the Guardia Nacional headquarters. I have liaison officers who check in periodically with the headquarters. [Security deletion.]

I think we still have good relationships and good understandings there, but this is just a fact of life.

U.S. PRESENCE IN PANAMA

Mr. ROYBAL. In general, do the Panamanians resent the fact that we are there?

General MATHER. Yes. I think there is a latent hostility. [Security deletion.]

Mr. ROYBAL. Do the two flags still fly side by side?

General LEBER. Yes, sir; they do in every place that we are agreed on between the two countries, they do fly side by side.

STATUS OF REFUGEES IN CANAL ZONE

Mr. FASCELL. What is the reaction to the presence in the Canal Zone of the three Panamanian officers who tried to overthrow the General? General LEBER. They are not now in the Zone.

Mr. FASCELL. They are gone?

General LEBER. This has been an incident which has caused some hard feeling. [Security deletion.]

Mr. GROSS. Would you yield for a question?

Mr. FASCELL. Certainly, at any time, Mr. Gross.

Mr. GROSS. Governor, can you cite now, or will you provide me later,

if the committee does not want it, with a citation as to where I can find the agreement with the United Nations?

General LEBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GROSS. Can you give it now?

General LEBER. I do not have the number of it right here. I would prefer to be accurate.

It is a United Nations resolution which brings into effect the convention covering refugees which was originally worked out back in 1951 and makes it applicable worldwide. The United States has ratified this convention, as have other countries. Panama has not.

(The Department of Defense subsequently furnished the following citation: "Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees between

the United States of America and Other Governments Done at New York, January 31, 1967.")

(For text of Protocol and text of Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, see appendix, p. 233.) Mr. GROSS. [Security deletion.] General LEBER. [Security deletion.] Mr. GROSS. All right.

U.S. AND PANAMANIAN FLAGS

Tell me, does the Panamanian flag fly on an equality with the U.S. flag in the Canal Zone?

General LEBER. Every place in the Zone except on the military bases where the U.S. flag is flown officially, the Panamanian flag flies alongside the U.S. flag.

Mr. GROSS. Have there been any more Panamanian newspaper caricatures of U.S. soldiers with dog's heads and urinals turned over their heads for helmets?

General LEBER. No, sir; recently there have not been. I know the type you are talking about, which came out after the 1964 riots, [security deletion].

Mr. GROSS. Do you intend to fly the Panamanian flag on equality with the U.S. flag if we have a repetition of the intrusion into the Canal Zone that we had about 6 years ago, and caricatures in the newspaper defaming our troops, and so on and so forth? Do you intend to continue that? What is your policy?

General LEBER. I think we would have to see how the situation developed. [Security deletion.]

Mr. GROSS. Do we have a status of forces treaty or agreement with the Panamanians with respect to our troops?

General MATHER. We do not.

Mr. GROSS. I am glad to hear that.

CURRENT SITUATION IN PANAMA

Mr. FASCELL. Gentlemen, in your opinion, how stable is the present government in Panama?

General MATHER. Well, let me take a crack at that, Mr. Chairman. I think it is more stable than it has been [security deletion]. General LEBER. I certainly agree with what General Mather said. I might add that this government is a new government, a new program, a new policy.

Mr. FASCELL. In what sense?

General LEBER. In the sense that they have abandoned, discarded, disowned the practices of previous governments [security deletion].

Mr. FASCELL. How realistic is that looking to the future, since in Panama, as I recall it, there were about 20 or maybe fewer families that really had all the money and controlled the politics?

For example, if he takes on the Arias family in a direct confrontation, how far is he going to get?

General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. There are only about a dozen wealthy families?

General LEBER. Well, a few more than that, but not too many. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. What is the population of Panama?

General LEBER. About 1.4 million.

Mr. FASCELL. 1.4 million in Panama?

General LEBER. Yes.

Mr. FASCELL. You said something that intrigued me earlier. It was in answer to one of Mr. Gross's questions. [Security deletion.] General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

General MATHER. There is no criticism of the government.

Mr. FASCELL. To me that seems rather phenomenal because the Arias family itself owns newspapers, radio and television stations.

General LEBER. The Arias who owned the papers are now in exile. Mr. FASCELL. Which Arias branch is that?

General LEBER. This was Gilberto Arias, the son of Harmodio Arias.

Mr. FASCELL. Harmodio is dead, Gilberto is a lawyer.

General LEBER. That is right.

Mr. FASCELL. He is in exile?

General LEBER. Yes, Marmodio, Jr., is out of the country.

Mr. FASCELL. Where are they, in what countries?

General LEBER. They move around some, but generally in the United States. Tito, who is the one who was wounded, now an invalid married to Margot Fonteyn, is another one of the sons.

Mr. FASCELL. There was another Arias who was President three times and was put out in October of 1968 and is now in the United States.

General MATHER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. What generally is the political base in Panama? General MATHER. He has dissolved all of the old political parties. Mr. FASCELL. Has the Assembly also been dissolved?

General MATHER. Yes, that is closed. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. They had provincial State Governors in Panama? General LEBER. Yes.

Mr. FASCELL. Were they all suspended and new people appointed? General LEBER. Right: appointed by Torrijos.

Mr. FASCELL. General Torrijos has appointed all new State Governors?

General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. What is General Torrijos' attitude with respect to the canal itself and possible new treaties? Do we have any impression of that at the present time?

General MATHER. First of all, I think he is completely nationalistic; that is, his drive. He is a reformist, moderately, as the Governor mentioned. [Security deletion.]

General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. One of the prime movers in Panama, as I recall it, for this political agitation, and also with respect to the assertion of Panamanian jurisdiction over the canal, has been the dean of the law school at the University of Panama. Is he still around?

If so, what is his name?

General LEBER. If you mean Narcisco Garay, he is still around.

Mr. FASCELL. He has made a lifetime career of this.
General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. Today?

General LEBER. Yes.

Mr. FASCELL. As long as he is there [security deletion].
General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. Interestingly enough, the man has an unusual ability to survive. What interests me is what is his power base.

General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. Yes, but what is his power base, who are the people? General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. Mr. Roybal?

Mr. ROYBAL. I am not convinced that the distrust that is manifested in the negotiations on the part of the Panamanians was really not based, as you said, was not based on fact.

What is it they say is not to their satisfaction? Are they concerned, for example, the Panamanians working in the Zone are not getting equal treatment?

Are they concerned about the overpresence perhaps of the military in the Panama Canal Zone?

Are they concerned about the living conditions of the Panamanians. immediately adjacent to the Zone area?

Are these some of the things that bother them? Are these some of the things that perhaps contribute to this distrust?

General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. Mr. Gross.

Mr. GROSS. I would like to explore for a minute or two the philosophy of the Governor with respect to the operation of stores in the Canal Zone. I do not want to see the U.S. Government in the business of operating grocery stores, but who is going to assure the U.S. citizens who are rightfully there operating a canal, a sure and safe food supply?

Is it going to be the U.S. Army that does in the case of an upheaval? What is the difference between what happens in Panama and what happens in Washington, D.C.?

If it had not been for 15,000 troops, a lot of people would have gone hungry in the District of Columbia not so long ago.

Why do we get so excited over the situation in Panama when it takes 15,000 troops to assure a food supply here?

Or do you think the Army ought to set up soup kitchens and feed the people for an interminable length of time if they kick up their heels and give us trouble in Panama?

I do not agree with you, Mr. Governor.
General LEBER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. GROSS. I guarantee you I would not want my wife shopping in a store in a substantial area of the District of Columbia under certain conditions. I certainly would not want her out shopping at night under any condition. I do not know what the situation is in Panama, but it would not take very much to ignite a spark down there in view of what has happened in recent years, to make it impossible for them to use Panamanian stores.

General LEBER. [Security deletion.]