Mr. HILL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And they would have the additional range that they are losing now by reason of the fact that the prices and the needs of the Government for beef are culling out some of these livestock.

Mr. HILL. They are always very competitive to sheep, not as much so as they used to be when we fought one another about it, butThe CHAIRMAN. It is a more courteous competiton now than it was years ago.

Mr. HILL. Yes. The fact is, most sheepmen are cattlemen too, nowadays.

Senator THOMAS of Idaho. We have this situation in Idaho now, Mr. Hill: Feed is high. Range conditions are very good, but feed is high for the winter, and we winter-feed out there, and nearly every one of our sheepmen within the last 30 days has commenced to cull his herd, throw out all of the old sheep, and everything of that kind, get rid of his ewe lambs, expecting to go into the winter with just as few sheep as he can possibly get along with. That means a reduction in the Idaho clip.

Mr. HILL. That is right.

Senator THOMAS of Idaho. Now, this could all be changed if they knew what they were going to do.

Mr. HILL. I think our sheepmen, of course, should be encouraged to continue the culling process of keeping good sheep.

Senator THOMAS of Idaho. They do that anyway.

Mr. HILL. You have a very fine program out there in the improvement of the sheep all over that country where they cull out the worst ones and take better care of the better ones; but getting rid of all the lambs certainly is going to cut you down.

Senator THOMAS of Idaho. Surely.

Senator CONNALLY. Mr. Chairman, I am not a member of this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. We invited you to come over here, I believe. Senator CONNALLY. I could not get here earlier; I had some duties elsewhere. Of course I am interested in this wool proposition too, since my State produces more wool, I understand, than any other State, but I was also interested in mohair. I was not here when Mr. Marriner and others testified about the mohair situation. We have a very great deal of difficulty. It seems the Army and Navy do not use any mohair for their specifications, and yet the W. P. B. has put on certain restrictions and limitations to the use of it in civilian industry. I just wondered, if the Government does not need it, why they should prohibit them from selling it to anybody that wanted it. Was that developed in the testimony?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Mr. Marriner covered that quite extensively, and I could not, of course, attempt to state the things the way that he did; but, as I got it, the effect of it was that they might in the future need the mohair, and in the meantime they hoped for the best, that the men who are raising mohair and short wool will carry it along. Senator CONNALLY. In other words, just let them be a reserve and holding for when and if the Government might need it?

The CHAIRMAN. That is it.

Senator CONNALLY. In the meantime they are deprived of the opportunity to sell it to industry. It seems to me it is a very unsound

policy so far as the producer is concerned, if he is to be considered and consulted.

The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you.

When we started to take testimony here, Mr. Byron Wilson did not complete his statement, and we stated to him that we would like to call him back as we neared the conclusion of this hearing. If you will come to the stand, Mr. Wilson, we should like to hear from you now. We shall run along for a while and endeavor to get through.

STATEMENT OF J. BYRON WILSON, CHAIRMAN, LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE NATIONAL WOOL GROWERS ASSOCIATION, AND SECRETARY OF THE WYOMING WOOL GROWERS ASSOCIATION, MCKINLEY, WYO.-Resumed

Mr. WILSON. Mr. Chairman, gentlemen of the committee, I have heretofore qualified myself.

The Senators will first permit me to address myself to Senator Connally's question. You stated Mr. Marriner's position in that, as I understood it

Senator CONNALLY. Mr. Marriner ought to be listening to you. The CHAIRMAN. He is here.

Senator CONNALLY. I know he is, but you are talking about him, and he is not paying any attention.

Mr. WILSON. As is frequently the case.

Senator CONNALLY. He is not paying any more attention to you than he is to the producers of mohair.

Mr. WILSON. They frequently do not pay attention to me, Senator. Senator CONNALLY. I thought he ought to hear what you are saying, though, because you are talking about him.

Mr. WILSON. Yes.

I quite agree with what Senator Connally said about the mohair situation. It is unsatisfactory. The Government may need it 2 years from now or 3 years from now, 4 In the meanfrom now. years time they expect these fellows to continue to raise mohair without a market, because they have restricted their market by the restrictions they have placed in the wool conservation order, on the theory that "Maybe we shall need it."

After all, there is not enough of that mohair, in case there is real necessity, for the use of the mohair in military fabrics. There is not enough of it to make a very material difference, and certainly it should be excluded completely from the wool conservation order.

Of course, on the same theory we might go on and say that we are going to need a lot of things that we cannot now imagine, but if we did that we would get into a lot of trouble, and it seems to me that their position on the mohair is very unfair. It should be released, Senators; you are absolutely right.

The same thing applies to the short wool. You gentlemen did not develop the question, but we find this rather peculiar situation: Short wool-which is produced more in Texas than anywhere else, although we have some of it in my State and you have some of it in your State, Senator Hatch-which can only be used in certain of the lining cloths and is not used or may not be used too much because of

price I anticipate that in our territory wools the dealers in Boston are going to find themselves with rather substantial quantities of what we call fine short clothing wools on hand. Texas is about to shear another fall clip of wool. I do not know what it will amount to; I presume somewhere around 20,000,000 pounds. Is that about right? Approximately 20,000,000 pounds. And, that coming on without a halt, it seems to me, inasmuch as there is not a direct need for those wools and the mohair, and for other purposes, that they should be released from the wool-conservation orders.

While Mr. Marriner expresses great satisfaction with the wool conservation order and the method of handling, I think generally speaking they have done a pretty good job, and I have no personal quarrel with Mr. Marriner, but I have objected rather strenuously to their last order, which is a sort of sugar-coated mandatory blending order. As was brought out by Mr. Ackerman yesterday, they pay a premium to those who blend wool, in that they give them additional quantities of wool. Then they have put a joker in: the man who wants to make an absolutely clear worsted-a virgin wool worsted, if you will— is limited to half the wool that he had during the last quarter. That is done in this way: Theoretically, he gets the same amount. He gets 20 percent of his quarterly allowance, but when you figure that this is done on a 6 months' basis and the basic poundage is figured on a quareterly basis, it is reduced to 10 percent.

Reverting, if I may, to the Texas short wool situation and the other short wool situation, but this applies particularly to Texas short wool: Texas short wool is competitive with noils. Noils, as you gentlemen know, are the byproducts of the combing of wool into worsted tops. They are the short fibers that comb out in that process, and they are directly competitive with Texas short wools; that is, they are used for the same purposes. Now, noils are not included in the conservation order, but Texas short wools are. No one has yet satisfactorily explained to me why noils should be free from the order and short wools included, and I think that is something to which the committee might properly give consideration.

It seems to me, after hearing the testimony this morning, Mr. Chairman, that everybody is in complete agreement. The gentlemen from the Textiles, Clothing, and Leather Goods Branch say that they realize something should be done with the wool, that a loan should be made possibly on the basis of the British import price plus the duty, and I assume, of course, they meant to include the cost of landing that wool here; that is, the war-risk insurance, the freight, and so forth, and the other charges. But it develops that no one has the authority to make a loan on that basis, or if any department has such authority it has not been developed at these hearings.

As was pointed out by Senator Hatch, the Commodity Credit Corporation are limited to loans of 85 percent of parity, which figured something over 23 cents, as I recall it. Then they come up with a new proposal that the floor be put under wool by a Government guaranty to purchase at the same price at which they proposed a loan be made that is, the British issue price plus the duty and plus the charges. But it again develops, so far as I have been able to understand, that no one has the authority to do that, nor have they the funds.

Senator HATCH. Mr. Marriner did say that he anticipated no difficulty in doing that. He was not definite as to how it would be done, as to what agency would handle it. I think that is right.

Mr. WILSON. I sincerely hope that Mr. Marriner can find the funds and a way of doing it, Senator, but so far as I am advised neither are the funds available nor is there a way of doing it. I presume and you gentlemen would know far more about it than I do that that might be done through the Defense Supplies Corporation, although I do not know, but so far as has been developed here there is no method of doing it.

Senator HATCH. Mr. Wilson, now is not this the situation, if I might interrupt you: This morning it has been fully developed, and is in the other hearings, that the problem exists and should be met? Mr. WILSON. That is right.

Senator HATCH. It should be met now. Everybody is in accord, practically, as to price; that does not seem to bother. And the War Production Board has said it has no objection to the Government purchase of the entire clip, as the growers want. Mr. Marriner has pointed out that the only defect he can see is the question, we might say, of personnel. Now, Mr. Hill comes along and says that is not a problem that they can take care of that situation. There is not anything to prevent, then, putting into effect the thing that the grower wants, except these gentlemen just coming into agreement. That is all. And the one plan of the purchase is approved by the growers, approved by the Department of Agriculture, and the War Production Board has no objection to it. Isn't that the situation?

Mr. WILSON. I think you have stated it much better than I could have possibly stated it, Senator.

Senator HATCH. It reminds me very much of some other great fundamental things-and I am not being critical-of our entire war effort. We see this situation so many times. We had it in oils, we had it about the pipe lines and the tankers and those things. Everybody agrees to the problem, but it was just delayed and put off until we were met with a very serious situation and too late. But, frankly, I see no reason whatever why the War Production Board, not having any objection, should not on this occasion meet the wishes of the growers, meet what the Department of Agriculture says it can do, and put this plan into effect immediately. I just do not understand it.

Mr. WILSON. That is one thing that we desire most earnestly, Senator, and it is the one thing that must be done and done promptly, as has been brought out here, if production is to continue at its present level, not to speak of an increase, because, as you know, they will commence selling these lambs pretty soon, and once they go to the market they cannot reproduce and there will not be a wool clip from those lambs next year. So that something should be done. I am like you, I cannot understand it. I cannot understand the apparent reluctance to have done this sometime ago.

Senator HATCH. Pardon me for interrupting you. I was just sitting here thinking about the situation.

Mr. WILSON. I would like to have you interrupt because you conveyed the situation far better than I could and exactly as it is.

I want to revert again for just a moment to this question of noils and short wools. I think that is something that the committee should

properly give consideration to. If one is conserved the other should be conserved. If one is not conserved, then the other should not be conserved. Now that seems to me to be fundamental. If they can be used largely for the same purposes, why have one in a free and unrestricted market and restrict the use and thereby restrict the market of the other? That has never been satisfactorily explained to me.!

I think that Senator Hatch has covered everything, and it is perhaps not necessary for me to say any more except to thank the committee and the other Senators who have been kind enough to attend. We have a serious situation. We realize that you appreciate the seriousness of the situation, and we are extremely greatful to you for arranging these hearings and arranging them so promptly

What I have said about short wool, Senator Connally, applies equally well to mohair. They may want to use it a year from now or 2 years from now or 3 years from now, but the position that the mohair grower is in and the position that the wool grower is in under this situation is this: We carry the stock pile. The Government carries the stock pile of the foreign wool, but they expect the domestic grower to carry the stock pile of domestic wool until they are ready to use it; and if, as, and when this war is over, with the tremendous stock pile staring us in the face, the domestic grower is going to be in a pretty bad shape, and he cannot afford to carry that stock pile, nor is it fair to ask him to carry the stock pile while at the same time they are purchasing foreign wool and negotiating for the purchase of additional foreign wool. It is decidedly unfair.

I think that there is not much that I could add except that I want to say to the committee that they should see to it that there could be no possible reprisals for the committee's having asked my friend Mr. Gillis to serve as adviser to the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. There certainly would not be, because Mr. Gillis is here, and the time that he took part in this proceedings was when the wool growers themselves were on the stand.

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. I am just passing that out.

Senator HATCH. We do not want any reprisals against anybody for helping to serve the committee.

Mr. WILSON. And I have, if I may, two statements that I should like to put into the record; one with relation to the roll-back, and I understand you are to hear witness on that this afternoon; the other with relation to the mandatory blending, both of which I think are pertinent and which will clear up some of the fog that may exist in the minds of the committee; and if I may submit those for the record I will again thank you for your consideration and for your speed. You gentlemen realize, even though some of the departments do not, that speed in this is absolutely essential.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Wilson.

Mr. WILSON. May those go into the record, Mr. Chairman? May I put those in the record at this point?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes,

(The documents referred to, National Association of Wool Manufacturers and Brief Opposed to Mandatory Blending, are as follows:)