SIR GEORGE GREY said, that the hon. Member for Warwickshire raised a different question from that which was under discussion, and which related to the movement of cattle within Great Britain. He was not aware that the Government had any power over foreign vessels. MR. NEWDEGATE observed, that there was a large coasting trade in cattle carried on by steamers belonging to this country; and it was to that class of vessels that he desired particular attention should be paid. MR. CARNEGIE expressed a hope that the railway companies would be made to pay the expense of disinfecting their own cattle trucks. MR. ACLAND moved that the clause be postponed. MR. KNIGHT said, he did not think either the proposition of the Home Secretary or that of the hon. Member for Northamptonshire quite satisfactory; but the Committee might go on discussing them, for he disliked the idea of postponing everything. COLONEL DOUGLAS PENNANT stated that one large railway company had issued orders to their officers for the cleansing of their trucks; and that being so, he did not see why other railway companies should not do the same, instead of throwing the expense on the country. He was very much inclined to support the proposition of the Home Secretary. see MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE, ing that the Lord Advocate was not in his place, begged to move the omission of the words "in England," so that the clause might apply equally to England and Scotland. MR. BARING said, that as the clause stood half the penalties were to go to the informer. He proposed to insert such words as should make the whole of the penalties payable to the county, as in the Cattle Diseases Bill. VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE said, the great obstacle to enforcing the stoppage of traffic was the difficulty of procuring information. The only hope they had of carrying the Bill into effect was to induce the inhabitants of the country to bring offenders to justice, and the best way of doing so was to appeal to the cupidity of informers, so as to meet any local lukewarmness. He therefore trusted the Committee would not alter the clause. MR. CARNEGIE had been informed that it was found impossible to carry out the Orders of the Privy Council until it that half the Question put, "That the Clause be was publicly announced postponed."(Mr. Acland.) penalty would go to the informer. The Committee divided:-Ayes 96; Noes 86 Majority 10. Clause 36 withdrawn. Clause 39 (Penalty for refusing to produce a licence). MR. HUNT proposed after the words any justice," to add the words "parish officer,' so as to enable the overseer of a parish, in the absence of any other authority, to require the production of a licence. VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE suggested that it would be better to follow the analogy of the Game Act, and enable "any person to require the production of the licence. This Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. [cl. 33.] Clause 40 (Penalty for false Declaration) agreed to. Mr. Newdegate Question, That the words "in England" stand part of the clause, put, and negatived. Clause further amended by words making one half the penalty to credit of county rate. Clause, as amended, agreed to. [cl. 35.] Clause 45 withdrawn. Clause 3 (Interpretation clause). MR. BARING proposed, with regard to the word "beast," that the same interpretation should be adopted as in the Cattle Diseases Bill. MR. HARDY remarked that the Government measure gave no interpretation respecting footpaths and bridle roads, and that, consequently, there was a great probability of the regulations being, to a certain extent, evaded. SIR JAMES FERGUSSON stated that it was highly desirable to stop the traffic appeared calculated to lead to some forty on the drove-roads so common in Scotland, or fifty Amendments, and other words over which animals frequently travelled a seemed to be likely to lead to similar reconsiderable distance. He therefore pro- sults. posed that the term "highway" should mean any turnpike, drove, or public road either in England or Scotland. MR. HUNT said, that the word "beast" had been selected because it was a singular noun; the word "cattle" was plural, and would be inconvenient. The whole Bill was drawn up in the singular number, and if the hon. Gentleman's suggestion were adopted the Bill would not only be ungrammatical, but as unintelligible as he believed the Government Bill was. MR. ACLAND contended that there was no intention of impeding the measure; but it was necessary, for the guidance of the magistrates by whom the two Acts were to be put into operation, that they should be brought into uniformity. He would suggest to the hon. Member for Northamptonshire whether it would not be better for him, between then and the following morning, to consult the intelligent officer who was in the habit of assisting the Government in framing their measures, and see if the two Bills could not be brought more into conformity one with the other. MR. HUNT would suggest that the Interpretation clause should be agreed to as it stood, and by the time that the Report was brought up he would see if he could bring the Bill more into harmony with that introduced by the Government-a result which he was very desirous of attaining. MR. BARING said, their object had been to get the Bill into a working shape. The terms "borough" and "county" were used in the present Bill in a different sense from that in which they were employed in the Government measure. If the two Bills, however, were to work at all, they must work upon the same footing. He did not for one moment wish to interfere with the hon. Member's Bill, but he thought it SIR JAMES FERGUSSON moved to would greatly save the time of the Com- add words in order to include in the term mittee if the hon. Member would with-"highway" the drove roads in Scotland. draw the clause and bring in a fresh one as far as possible in conformity with the measure introduced by the Government. MR. HUNT said, that the words "borough" and "county" were employed in his Bill in the ordinary sense attaching to those terms, while the Government in their measure had bestowed upon them an artificial meaning. He thought that the author of the Bill might be allowed to put his own interpretation upon the words used in the Bill ["No, no!"], and not be compelled to accept the definition placed upon them by its opponents. SIR EDWARD BULLER thought that the word "cattle" might be employed, and that it might be stated in the Bill to mean "cow," "bull," and so on, and to be used to represent both the singular and the plural noun. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Northamptonshire had not hesitated to employ the word in some instances, for he styled the authorities referred to by the Bill as "cattle inspectors" and "cattle officers," not as "beast inspectors" and "beast officers." VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE thought that if the Committee wasted their time over such miserable technicalities the country would hardly give them credit for being actuated by a sincere desire to put a stop to this disease. The word "beast alone Words added. Words were then added to the defini tions. Clause, as amended, agreed to. [cl. 3.] Clauses 28 to 34, inclusive, struck out. MR. HUNT brought up a new clause in lieu of Clause 4 (What Beasts to be deemed sound, what diseased) "For the Purposes of this Act, an Animal shall be deemed sound if and when it is not affected with the Cattle Plague, and has not, within Thirty Days, been in contact with any Animal so affected, any Building or Yard or Field where any Animal and has not within Thirty Days, been in or on so affected has been kept, unless that Building or Yard or Field has been effectually cleansed and disinfected at least Thirty Days previous to the Beast being placed in or on the same.' Clause agreed to. " [cl. 4.] MR. HUNT moved after the 35th clause to add a new clause (Restriction on Dogs) "Each Local Authority may from Time to Time order that Dogs be not allowed to go at large, not under the Control of their Owner, or his or her Servant or Servants, in the District of the Local Authority, either absolutely or except in Order, and may by any such Order authorize any conformity with Conditions prescribed by the Constable or Peace Officer or other Person to destroy any Dog going at large in contravention of the Order, and may from Time to Time vary, MR. LIDDELL hoped the clause would suspend, or revoke any such Order; and every be withdrawn. The Committee had not such Order, while in force, shall be sufficient been afforded sufficient time to consider Warrant for any Person acting in pursuance thereof." After discussion, Amendment to add the words "not under the control of his owner, or his or her servant or servants' -agreed to. Clause, as amended, added to the Bill. [cl. 29.] SIR CHARLES RUSSELL moved to add after Clause 34 a new clause (Restriction on Movement of Sheep, &c). The object he had in view was, as it were, to give a clean bill of health to sheep moving about from one place to another. He had received a letter from the chief manager of a large market with which he had some connection, pointing out the great inconvenience which was now experienced from the total stoppage of that market under the Orders in Council, which were strictly carried into effect in the county where the market town was situated. That market was entirely closed, and would not be opened until some such security as that which he had mentioned was given. According to the clause, no sheep, lamb, &e., could be moved into the district of any local authority without the licence of a justice having jurisdiction within the district, such licence to be obtained upon certain specified conditions. VISCOUNT MILTON expressed his opinion that sheep were likely to carry the disease. Hair and wool were very nearly allied chymically. MR. KNIGHT observed, that it seemed quite certain that sheep did not take the disease. MR. DENT remarked that in his county there had been an almost entire restriction of the moving of sheep, and this had been attended with very great inconvenience. Mr. Hunt it. SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY could assure the Committee that in his county very much inconvenience had been felt in consequence of the restriction of the movement of sheep. This had become an important question, because we must make up by mutton for the loss of beef. SIR CHARLES RUSSELL said, that the practical effect of his clause would be to facilitate the moving of sheep and get rid of the inconvenience which hon. Mem bers complained of. His object was simply to prevent the persons from moving sheep which had been in contact with diseased cattle. If his clause was added to the Bill all a drover would have to do was to go with his licence to a justice of the district into which he brought sheep and have that licence backed, which he would have no difficulty in doing if the animals had not been brought from a place where they had been in contact with diseased beasts. He had spoken to a great number of farmers on the subject, and they were all in favour of his clause. LORD BURGHLEY admitted the inconvenience of which so many hon. Members had complained; but he felt bound to support the clause, because he believed that sheep carried the disease about the country. MR. GEORGE CORNWALL LEGÍ suggested that it was not a question as to whether sheep took the disease or did not take it; but one as to whether they would carry it. He was sure that pigs carried it, for he had suffered from pigs being introduced into a neighbour's yard, which had been previously in an infected place. He thought the clause was necessary. MR. HUNT supported the introduction into the Bill of the clause proposed by the hon. Member for Berkshire (Sir Charles Russell). The sheep-pox had broken out very recently in Northamptonshire, and the Government at once issued an Order giving power to local authorities to refuse to allow sheep to be brought without a licence into their districts. In issuing this Order the Government had acted most properly, and the House ought to adopt a similar course by adopting the proposed clause. MR. M'LAREN said, that the adoption of the proposed clause would cause the greatest inconvenience in Scotland. Flocks of sheep on their way to Edinburgh, or to England, had often to pass through several counties, and the local authorities of any one of these counties might, by refusing a licence, stop the further progress of the flock. That sheep did not carry the infection was proved by an experiment lately tried at Edinburgh, where a number of sheep were kept for a certain time with diseased cattle, and were then placed with sound cattle; not one of the latter took the disease. SIR GEORGE GREY opposed the adoption of the clause, which he thought would have some very inconvenient results. SIR JAMES FERGUSSON, in answer to the remarks of the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren), said, that the proposed clause was only intended to be in force until the 25th of March, and that before that time flocks of sheep were never land, and providing for the publication of an abstract of the Act. SIR GEORGE GREY hoped the hon. Member did not intend to devolve upon him the preparation of the abstract. He suggested that the hon. Member should give notice in writing of the exact terms of his clause affecting the metropolis, and that the Bill should be reported with a view to its being printed, thereby enabling Members to see exactly what they had agreed to. MR. HUNT said, he was willing to adopt the suggestion on the understanding that the Bill would be re-committed only as to the new clauses. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. On Motion of Mr. HUNT, a clause giving moved from place to place in the Highlands by disease to prevent trespassers entering power to the owner of any cattle affected of Scotland. Clause negatived. on his land, after notice, was read a second time pro formá. should be considered as added to the Bill MR. BARING suggested that the clause pro forma, with a view of being re-com Clause agreed to, pro formâ. [cl. 39.] MR. AYRTON, in moving that the Chairman be ordered to report Progress, asked the hon. Member for Northampton-mitted. shire whether he seriously intended to prohibit the removal of all cattle from the place where they might be landed upon importation? He put that question with especial reference to the circumstances of the metropolis. MR. HUNT said, he was anxious, in the case of seaports other than the port of London, to permit cattle to be moved upon their arrival from the place of landing to the nearest slaughterhouse, a distance which he fixed roughly at 500 yards; but on that point he was anxious to consult the views of representatives of those seaports. The Metropolitan Market, however, was six miles in a straight line from the port of London, and as there was no other seaport similarly situated, he was quite aware that a stand-up fight must take place between the metropolitan Members and himself. MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS said, he had received representations from two or three of the largest steampacket companies concerned in bringing foreign cattle to the port of London, and he was persuaded that their interests, and the interests of the consumer, would be greatly interfered with by the Bill. MR. HUNT hoped the Motion for reporting Progress would not be pressed. There were two or three clauses which he was anxious to propose, giving power to the cattle owner to prevent trespass on his VOL. CLXXXI. [THIRD SERIES.] Then the following new clauses were proposed and agreed to, pro formá, in order to their being printed, and re-committed:Clause 24. Power for Cattle-owner to prevent Trespass on his Land.-Clause A. 25. Publication of Abstract of Act.-Clauso B. 26. Provision as to removal of Beasts brought by Sea.-Clause C. 27. As to Right to turn out Beasts on Commons.-Clause D. 28. Diseased Beasts not to be turned out on Commons.-Clause E. 29. Defining Counties to which certain Parishes belong.-Clause F. 30. Appointment of general Cattle Inspectors. -Clause G. 31. Inspection of Cattle Sheds.-Clause H. 32. Proclamation of Infected Districts. Clause I. 33. Relaxation of Prohibition by Local Authority to be approved by Secretary of State after Lady Day.-Clause J. MR. BANKS STANHOPE inquired when the House could receive accurate Returns of the number of attacks from the cattle plague during the last and preceding week. SIR GEORGE GREY said, that the Returns were made, not to the Home Office, but to the Privy Council, and he would make inquiry on the subject. MR. BANKS STANHOPE said, that some alarm prevailed in the country, it 2 F House resumed. being apprehended that there had been Government to be preferable is that which a serious increase above what was known is being adopted in various parts of the of the progress of the disease. country where the cattle disease is severely felt of voluntarily setting apart a day either throughout a diocese, at the suggestion of the bishop, or parochially, for holding a special service to pray for the blessing of God on the means used for arresting the progress of the disease. Bill reported; to be printed, as amended [Bill 24]; re-committed, in respect of the Interpretation Clause, the Clauses added in Committee, and any new Clauses to be proposed, for Thursday. POSTMASTER GENERAL BILL. On Motion of Mr. DARBY GRIFFITH, Bill to enable the Postmaster General to sit in the IIouse of Commons, ordered to be brought in by Mr. DARBY GRIFFITH and Mr. HADFIELD. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 25.] TURNPIKE ROADS BILL. On Motion of Mr. WHALLEY, Bill to provide for the maintenance of the Turnpike Roads of England and Wales as Public Highways, and for the discharge of the Debts due thereon by voluntary commutation, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WHALLEY and Mr. AYRTON. House adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, February 21, 1866. PUBLIC BILLS Second Reading-Juries in Cri- Report-Telegraph Act Amendment * [23]. NATIONAL FAST FOR THE CATTLE SIR BROOK BRIDGES said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of the Government to recommend the appointment of a day for National Fast and Humiliation in consequence of the national calamity of the Cattle Plague? THE TAME VALLEY VIADUCT. QUESTION. SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he wished to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been directed by the Government Inspectors of Railways to the alarming condition of several of the arches of the viaduct spanning the Tame Valley, near Tamworth, on the Midland line of Railway, and what steps have been taken by the Board of Trade in the matter, with a view to the protection of life and property? He believed that three of the arches in the centre of the viaduct had given way. MR. MILNER GIBSON said, in reply, that owing to the short notice that had been given him, he had been unable to look into the matter so fully as he could have wished. The portion of railway referred to was opened in 1839, before the Board of Trade had jurisdiction or the power of inspection. He was not aware, however, that any representations had been made recently by the Government inspectors, but full inquiry should be made, and he would give the House all the information he possessed. JURIES IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL. BILL 16.] SECOND READING. SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, in moving the second reading of the Bill to codify and amend the Law in relation to the keeping together and discharge of Juries on the trial of Criminal Cases, said, he SIR GEORGE GREY: Sir, the opinion hoped to be able to show to the House of the Government on this subject is dis- sufficient grounds to induce them to agree tinctly expressed in the letter which, in the to the Motion. Public attention had been name of the Government, I addressed to recently called to the question of the disthe Archbishop of Canterbury, and which charging or the keeping together of crihas been laid before Parliament. The minal juries by the recent case of CharGovernment still retain that opinion. If lotte Winsor, which was still pending in a day of humiliation were to be appointed our courts, which would not be affected by the authority of the Queen in Council, by this Bill. He had introduced a Bill · its observation must be enjoined on the whole kingdom, including Ireland. The course which appears to Her Majesty's Mr. Banks Stanhope similar to the one now before the House last Session, before the case of Charlotte Winsor occurred; but that measure he |