Clause 21 (Regulations as to Movement | it was incumbent upon the House to make of Cattle). some stringent provisions, ordering that MR. E. CRAUFURD said, the first until the trucks had been disinfected to part of the clause prohibiting the removal the satisfaction of some thoroughly comof cattle by sea would injuriously affect petent person nothing whatever should be the agricultural interest of the various carried in them. islands around Scotland. The cattle of Argyllshire were not fat cattle fit for the market, but were young lean beasts sent down to be fattened. He therefore proposed to add such words as would permit sound cattle to be moved by sea from one part of a county or district to another part of the same county or district with the permission of the local authorities. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Bill re-committed, in respect of Clauses 35, 37, and the last clause; considered in Committee, and reported; as amended, considered; to be printed as amended. [Bill 22.] Motion agreed to. Bill read a third time, and passed. HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND) BILL-[BILL 21.] MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS-That they have agreed to-Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) Bill, without Amendment. CATTLE PLAGUE BILL-[BILLS 7 & 24.] COMMITTEE. Bill considered in Committee (on recommitment.) MR. HUNT desired to explain what arrangement had been come to between him and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department. It had been arranged that the Cattle Diseases deal with the movement of cattle only as Bill, which had just been passed, should regarded their carriage by rail and their landing at ports. The Bill under consideration, it had been arranged, should deal with the movement of cattle generally; and, therefore, all other clauses foreign to that matter had been struck out of it. He was obliged to the Government for having consented to his proposal to place this Bill first upon the Orders of the Day for Monday, and he moved that the Chairman report Progress. Committee report Progress; to sit again on Monday next. Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair at six o'clock. Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair at eleven o'clock. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS-That they do request, that this House will continue On Motion that the Bill be read a third sitting for some time. time, LORD ELCHO said, he had been reminded by a letter which he had received from the country that one thing had been omitted from the Bill. It had been resolved that the railway companies should not carry cattle in their trucks; but it had not been declared illegal to carry anything else in them. He found from the information his correspondent had supplied him with that the railway authorities were carrying wood, bricks, tiles, and other things in their cattle trucks. He thought Message considered. Resolved, That this House will continue sitting for some time, as desired by their Lordships. Message to attend the LORDS COMMIS Order of the Day for the Second Reading and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered in order to their being dispensed with, read. EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I am not in the habit of trespassing at any very great length upon your Lordships' time, and it is not my intention to do so upon the present occasion. There are, however, a few reasons in support of this measure which I feel it desirable to state, but not at any great length, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) and the noble Lord on the cross-benches having both declared on a former occasion that time was a very great element in the stoppage of the cattle plague. I am compelled to admit that if I went very closely into the details of the measure there are many clauses of which I could not conscientiously recommend the adoption to the House, and many which must inflict great inconvenience if the Act is to be at all effectual for its purpose. On the other hand, it is a great pleasure to me to introduce this Bill to the attention of your Lordships, because I have a strong hope that it will go far to stop the progress of the disease which has so long baffled our endeavours to cope with it. With the provisions of the Bill your Lordships are already generally acquainted, and I believe that it does in a very great measure represent the feelings of the vast majority of the agricultural interests, who are, at any rate, most immediately concerned in the issue of this grave question. In dealing with this Bill there is one point which is to be remem bered. Your Lordships, who all pay so much attention to the subject, have naturally made yourselves aware of what passed in the other House of Parliament, and of the very great difficulties that have to be encountered in dealing with the question; and that, since there may exist in some minds a doubt as to the perfect adaptability of this Bill to accomplish all that may be desired, this Bill is to be immediately followed by another containing regulations as to removal of cattle, and other matters, to a certain extent introducing exceptions from that isolation which it is the object of the present measure to establish. It certainly is, in the minds of many, a very great object that we should pass this Bill at once, reserving for introduction into the Bill that will immediately follow it any Amendments that may appear to be necessary. On the other hand, it may be, your Lordships may feel that there are in this Bill clauses which it is not desirable by suspending the Standing Orders to pass into law at once, but rather that it is desirable to wait for that other Bill which is coming up from the other House. This Bill, in the first place, constitutes local authorities to carry out its provisions, and confers upon them the power to appoint inspectors or other officers. The duties of those officers are clearly defined. Among other powers they will be enabled to enter any farm or buildings where they may have reason to suppose that the cattle disease exists. The next portion of the Bill is very important, and relates to the slaughter of animals. We propose by this Bill to give to the local authorities power to destroy all diseased animals, and also to authorize the slaughter of all such animals as, owing to their having been in contact or herded with diseased animals, may be suspected to be liable to the disease; and the Bill further provides for the payment of compensation to owners for cattle which may be thus destroyed. This compensation is to be provided by a local rate, and is in no case to exceed one-half of the value of the animal slaughtered, or the sum of £20 at the utmost. With regard to the removal of cattle, the Bill contains clauses prohibiting entirely the movement of cattle by railway up to the 25th of March, and that cattle imported by sea shall be slaughtered at the port of entry. The rest of the measure consists of matters of detail. It deals, for instance, with the expenses of the local authorities, and with cases in which a voluntary rate may have been self-imposed in the district. There is also a clause as to the lending of money by the Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2" -(The Lord President.) Public Works Loan Commissioners, to be | botched. Upon the principle of the Bill, repaid in seven years; and the rest of the no doubt, their Lordships were agreed; but Bill is made up of provisions with regard how, with the suspension of the Standing to legal proceedings and saving clauses. I Orders, was it possible to consider the do most sincerely trust that the measure, details? He wished to know as to Clause 5, attended as its operation must necessarily why the local authorities in Scotland had be with great inconveniences, may prove been entirely changed? For what purpose effectual for the purpose for which it is was this? Had the justices of the peace intended. I am quite sure that the Go- failed in their duty, had they been neglivernment will receive all the co-operation gent, or had one single instance been which the local authorities can possibly brought forward in which they had either afford. And though, abstractedly, I can- fallen short in the performance of their not approve all the provisions which it duty or exceeded it? He was not aware contains, yet I am very glad to be able to of any. As far as he was aware, they had move the second reading of a Bill which done their duty well and fearlessly. Someappears to meet the wishes of those who times the orders and regulations which have most carefully considered the sub- they had to enact were excessively disject, and who are most immediately tasteful and unpopular, and in some cases. affected by the disaster. these inflicted hardships on individuals; yet, when the public good rendered it necessary, they had not shrunk from the discharge of their duty. The arrangement proposed was a slur upon the justices of the peace of Scotland. They were now to have a new Court. The Commissioners of Supply and some tenant-farmers to be nominated by the lord-lieutenant, the lord-lieutenant himself, the convener and sheriff, or sheriff-substitute of the county were to form the local authority. Who were the Commissioners of Supply? The qualification was the possession of £100 a year in land, but the body had no judicial power-all it had to do was to collect the land tax and impose the assessment. True, it had by recent statute certain powers with respect to the police, but those powers were merely fiscal. He should certainly move the omission of the clause when it came under discussion, and propose that the local authority in Scotland should be the justices in quarter sessions assembled, as in England. There was necessarily some delay in calling the Commissioners of Supply together, and it would take a fortnight, at least, before anything could be done by them; whereas there was at present a local authority ready at hand: if it should be necessary to take the advice of practical agriculturists words might be put into the clause, enabling certain tenantfarmers to assist the sub-committee. the south of Scotland, at all the meetings of the justices, the tenant-farmers had been invited to be present, and although they had no hand in issuing the orders, their advice had been very much attended to and had been of great value. By the clause, as explained by the schedule, a separate local authority was placed not THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH said, he had no intention of opposing the second reading, but he must express his surprise at the manner in which it was proposed to proceed with the Bill. It was not till that morning that he was aware that the Bill had left the other House of Parliament, and now it was proposed to suspend the Standing Orders that they might pass the Bill with the same rapidity as the House had been asked to give its consent for suspending the Habeas Corpus in Ireland on Saturday last. No previous intimation had been given by the Government of their intention to carry the Bill through with such extraordinary haste. There were many points in the Bill requiring consideration, and they were in danger of making this a "botched " measure. He protested against a measure of such importance being brought up to that House at the last hour of the night of Saturday, so that their Lordships had not had the opportunity of seeing the Bill till Monday morning, or of communicating with those in distant parts of the country, whose interests the provisions of the Bill vitally af. fected. Now, on Monday, their Lordships were asked to suspend their Standing Orders, in order that the Bill might be passed through all its stages at one sitting. Moreover, they were told that they ought to accept the Bill as it stood, because there was coming up from the other House another Bill which would remedy all the deficiencies of the present; but which very probably, having been passed with equal haste, might be found to be equally In only in every Parliamentary burgh, but in every burgh which contributed to send a Member to Parliament, which latter were in many cases in Scotland little better than villages, and sometimes the chief magistrate was a butcher, baker, or blacksmith. Surely these were not the persons to set up as a separate local authority. He could not see why the present local authorities in Scotland should be set aside as unworthy and unfit to hold the position they had hitherto occupied. They knew perfectly well the difference between justices in England and justices in Scotland. In England the justices were always upheld by the Superior Courts, but in Scotland it was the reverse. Call a man a sheriff-substitute, and he was immediately a Solon, his knowledge and authority were above all; but if the most astute lawyer and the most talented person were acting as justice of the peace, it would be said, "Oh! he's only a justice, and he cannot be right." That was too often the way in which justices of the peace were spoken of in Scotland. He trusted this clause would be altered, as well as many others which required their Lordships' most anxious consideration. For this reason he counselled caution and delay rather than precipitate action. here to be considered, much valuable time will obviously be lost. If such a result should be attended with serious consequences, I trust it will not be laid to the door of Her Majesty's Government. THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE said, he could not agree to the principle of the indiscriminate slaughter of cattle ordered by the Bill. He was of opinion that the indiscriminate slaughter of cattle was altogether wrong-it was a principle which would press with great hardship on the country, and unless it was modified, they would have the whole agricultural interest in arms. He was of opinion that the clause might be modified. In some instances compulsory slaughter might be absolutely necessary; but in others it would be a very great injustice, and would be scarcely any provision against the extension of the disease. As he was of opinion that alterations were absolutely necessary, if we were to read this Bill a second time on the understanding that it was to go into Committee and be discussed as usual, clause by clause, he should be the last to throw any charge upon the Government for the delay; but it was absolutely necessary that it should be so discussed. There were Amendments which he considered necessary to various clauses, and he would rather they were introduced in the Bill actually under dis EARL GRANVILLE: In reply to the arguments of the noble Duke, I would say that I believe every one of your Lord-cussion, than wait for the other Bill not ships is agreed that it is desirable to pass the second reading of this Bill with unanimity. I have merely proposed the course I have in the full belief that it would be the best; but I have not the slightest desire to force my opinion, and hope your Lordships will judge for yourselves and act in accordance with that judgment. I moved the second reading of the Bill as I supposed pro formâ, and took that opportunity of bringing the principal provisions of the Bill under your Lordships' notice; and if the second reading be agreed to, I shall move the suspension of the Standing Orders, and then that the Committee be negatived-not with the view of precluding your Lordships from considering the Bill clause by clause, but to take the opinion of your Lordships, whether they think it necessary to discuss the clauses seriatim. I will, however, observe that if much of your Lordships' time is occupied in discussing this Bill clause by clause, and then if it be again discussed in the Commons when our Amendments are taken there, and again brought back The Duke of Buccleuch yet come up from the Commons. As to the clause with respect to the local autho. rities in Scotland, he could not understand by whose advice a slur had been cast upon the magistracy of Scotland, by taking from them powers with which they were invested under the Orders in Council, and giving them to a body totally irresponsible to any public body whatever. Magistrates were responsible in the execution of their duty to certain high authorities; but the Commissioners of Supply and agricultural tenants to be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant were responsible to no one, either for over-straining their duty and doing too much, or for neglecting their duty, and doing too little. He entirely agreed with the noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) in thinking the change was altogether unnecessary, and thought they should take all Parliamentary means of restoring the magistracy in Scotland to the position which they ought to hold under this Bill. He trusted that if the Bill were read a second time, with the unanimous assent of the House, that they would then proceed to discuss it in Committee in the usual way. THE DUKE OF MONTROSE said, he considered it would be a most foolish proceeding to pass a Bill leaving its known defects to be corrected by another Bill which might or might not come before their Lordships. If they made such alterations as they might consider necessary, it would not cause a delay of twenty-four hours in the passage of the Bill. The only point of importance in this Bill was that it stopped the cattle traffic by railway; but at this moment the traffic by road was open, and so were the markets. The other Bill was to deal with the traffic Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered, and dispensed with. Bill committed to a Committee of the House in Committee accordingly. Clause 3 (Definition of Terms). THE MARQUESS OF BATH said, that this was, in fact, only the skeleton of a Bill. Almost the whole of the important parts had been cut out, and the Bill would be inoperative in all respects but one till another Bill, now before the House of Commons, should have been passed. The cattle by railway, but all the remaining present Bill prohibited the removal of questions relating to the removal of cattle were left untouched. It dealt with the slaughter of diseased animals, but in no way provided for the treatment of infected districts. The two Bills ought to have been discussed together. EARL GREY urged the necessity of passing the Bill with as little delay as possible. The noble Marquess (the Mar by roads and the general movement of cattle. Until that Bill, therefore, was passed, the work would be only half accomplished; consequently, the delay proposed would not in fact frustrate the main object they had in view. If they merely stopped the railway traffic, the work would only be half done, and it was not till the other Bill came up that they would be able really to attain the object which they all had in view-namely, to stop entirely the traffic in live animals. The Local Au-quess of Bath) had said that it only dealt thority clause to which the noble Duke referred was a most extraordinary one; and he should like to know whether such a clause would have been permitted in the English part of the Bill. Would their English part of the Bill. Would their Lordships submit to a clause which proposed to put the county magistrates under the orders of the tenant-farmers and ratepayers? THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: When we come to the clause I shall be happy to explain. THE DUKE OF MONTROSE understood they were not to be permitted to come to the clause at all. They were asked to pass the Bill through all its stages, and postpone the discussion till the second Bill came up. The clause which had been referred to was the most monstrous one that had ever been invented; and it was part of the system of the Edinburgh lawyers to throw over the justices. EARL GRANVILLE said, it was perfectly true that he had proposed to negative the Committee, in order to meet what he thought was the general feeling of the House; but he was quite ready to take the other course of going into Committee and discussing the Bill clause by clause. Motion agreed to. Bill read 2 accordingly. with one part of the question; but it gave the power of compulsory slaughter, and it also provided compensation. These were provisions which were really wanted, and they would do much towards stopping the plague. In the next place it stopped all the great markets. It also prohibited the along the roads and canals. By this Bill movement of cattle imported from abroad animals were prohibited from being sent by rail, and already by the Orders in Council they were prohibited, in several counties, from being sent along the roads. This Bill, therefore, would completely stop the removal of cattle for a time, and would meet all that in the first instance was required. These provisions were understood to be quite in accordance with the wishes of the agriculturalists themselves. Clause agreed to. Clause 4 (Definition of "District," "Local Authority," Local Rate," and "Clerk of Local Authority"). THE MARQUESS OF BATH had not a word to say against the clause as it stood, but complained that they were in ignorance as to what powers would be conferred upon the local authorities in the way of granting relaxations, which all admitted were to some extent necessary. EARL GRANVILLE said, that he could not of course say in what form the Bill 2 B |