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and, by purchasing and killing the di- in the matter. My reply is that at the seased cattle, entirely to stamp it out in earliest possible moment-on Monday a way which it would be impossible for next, I believe it is intended that a a central Government to attempt. But Bill shall be introduced into the other the noble Duke complains of the different House to make some alterations in the systems adopted in different counties. law, and making various changes which we Now, the arrangements in the North Riding think will be useful. I am quite sure that of Yorkshire are different from those in any Bill of this sort will be met in no party the West Riding, and I have seen a letter spirit, but will be treated as a measure to from the chairman of the committee of the be adopted for the advantage of the latter division of the county, in which he country. I am sure that your Lordships gives the strongest possible opinion that will excuse my not anticipating the introthe notion of sending the butcher to the ox duction of that Bill by making any statewould be most injurious, and would be ment as to its provisions. most likely to propagate the disease, and THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My to enable the farmer and the butcher to Lords, I watched for some time for some palm off bad meat upon the public. With Member of the Government to rise to adrespect to giving directions to the local dress your Lordships on the subject to authorities in boroughs, there is the case of which the noble Earl who has last spoken Liverpool, where a difficulty arose from the has just referred, and I am glad that at market being out of the district of the last some information has been presented borough; but in that case the disputing to us. My noble Friend, however, is so parties met, and I believe that the diffi- successful in making the worse cause culty has been compromised. With re- appear the "better," that I cannot refrain gard to public opinion, I do not know how from offering a few remarks on his speech. far public opinion goes in reference to Every noble Lord who has spoken, whether this matter, but the debates in Parliament on this or the other side of the House, has will be the best test of it. It has been agreed in condemning the course which said that the Government should have en- Her Majesty's Government have taken on forced uniform action from the beginning. this subject. For my own part I am afraid Now in order to bring the question of uni- I must endorse their opinions, and perhaps formity of action before the justices, a even go beyond what they have said; for circular was sent to the chairmen of while not going so far as to say that the quarter sessions on the 12th of October, Government are responsible for the introasking them to give suggestions for the duction of this disease, I do say they are consideration of the Government; and in responsible for its spread and extension only two instances-in that of Northum- throughout the country. The noble Earl berland and Bedfordshire-was a uniform endeavoured to vindicate the Government course demanded, the general request on two points. He said that it would have being that the local authorities should been impossible for the Government to have have power to stop the removal of infected acted differently in the months of July beasts and of manure. My Lords, I think and August, when the disease first became it is some indication of the great difficulty known; and he also said it was impossible of dealing with this subject, and of the to establish uniformity of action throughout great changes which have taken place in the country. Now, I will not take up the public opinion with respect to it, that case at that early date; but I will show to there are such great differences of opinion your Lordships that a few months later between the very competent men who act the Government might and ought to have on the Commission. I am told-I suppose acted. There were then, at least, several I am at liberty to mention it-that another alternatives open to them, the adoption of Report is already agreed to by the Com- any of which would have brought the missioners appointed to consider the sub- question to a more or less successful issue. ject, which will contain most valuable infor- When once the Government were made mation, but which will not offer any further aware of the appalling state of circumsuggestions as to the course which should stances revealed, they ought to have called be taken by Government-I suppose in Parliament together and taken its opinion consequence of our not having attended to on the matter. Failing Parliament being their previous recommendations. The called together, they might have acted noble Lord (the Earl of Essex) has asked under those powers which it was thought me what the Government intend doing were of sufficient force to meet the emer

vaccination was thought to be one of the suitable remedies, there was a complete deficiency even of vaccine matter in London. I fully admit that the whole question of insurance is surrounded by the greatest possible difficulty; but we had at least a right to expect that in a letter of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, published in the autumn, incitements should not be held out to the illusory schemes of local insurances which have failed, and. which will in nine cases out of ten fail. But if the Government were not disposed to act in this matter, they were at least bound to give sufficient powers to the local authorities to enable them to act. What did they do? They issued Orders in Council, but those Orders in Council are so contradictory and confused as to be of no use whatever. I would call attention to two of these Orders. One is dated the 23rd of November, which consolidated all previous Orders. It vested the powers henceforth in the hands of petty sessions. But, as every child might know, this

gency; or, lastly, if they were not dis- | by the Metropolitan Market's Committee, posed to exercise their own responsibility, and by the Middlesex magistrates. Some, they should, in justice and pity to the too, of those inspectors were utterly igcountry, have enabled the local bodies, norant of their duties. Some were tradesto whom they had transferred those re- men, shoemakers, even butchers; and so, sponsibilities, to act with effect. But in partly from ignorance, partly from jeanone of these points have the Govern- lousy, partly from conflicting powers, fament done their duty. The Report of the cilities were given for the extension of Commissioners was published in the mid- the disease. A very moderate amount dle of October, and when was Parliament of foresight and regulation would have called together? On the 6th of February disposed of all this difficulty. But I go -several days later than for years it had farther. I ask why did not the Governbeen customary to be assembled. This is ment take measures to stimulate the ingetrifling with the question. It is a mockery nuity of private individuals by offering of the great interests which are suffering rewards for the discovery of a remedy for and almost perishing at this moment. the disease? When, a few weeks ago, But putting aside the question of calling together Parliament, suppose the Government had acted under the powers which belonged to them. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) says it was impossible for them to act as desired, because we had not a centralized Government; and the noble Earl quoted the examples of Austria, France, and Prussia, to show the power of action of centralized Governments. France and Austria might have so acted; but was Belgium a centralized Government? Was it necessary to have an autocratic Government in order to close the ports of Ireland ? Was it necessary to have an autocracy in order to keep the county of Aberdeen free from disease? Why, the great agricultural societies have been earnestly pressing the Government to take action in this matter. But was it not in their power to stop or regulate the importation of diseased or doubtful cattle from infected countries? You know that importation had brought the disease; and, for anything you know, importation might be extending it. Yet importation was al-immediately led to an extraordinary diflowed to go on. Again, why was the Me- ference of action throughout the country, tropolitan Market allowed to remain open each bench acting on a separate principle, -that market which has been the curse of and such was the confusion introduced the country, which was not only itself an that it became impossible to know under open centre of infection, but was distribut- what law any county, or even any part of ing the disease in every direction. Again, a county, was governed. But the Goyou had inspection in your own hands-vernment began to find out their miswhat did you do in that respect? Inspectors were appointed under such a system that inspection either resulted in the indiscriminate slaughter of every beast attacked, or became a mere idle form and ceremony. Inspectors were required to pass cattle at night, when they could not see them, and when it was absolutely impossible they could perform their duties. On this very ground we had at the same time inspectors appointed by the Privy Council Office, The Earl of Carnarvon

take, and so they passed another Order, in which they rushed from one extreme to another-from the petty sessions to quarter sessions. But quarter sessions are a very unwieldly body, and there is the greatest difficulty in getting them to work. They are very well calculated to discuss business once in three months, but they are wholly unfit to deal with sudden emergencies. Without powers of delegation the greatest difficulty was experienced in work

ing the Orders in Council, the meetings | Lord who spoke earlier in the evening (the being adjourned in many cases from fort- Earl of Essex), pointed out very truly that night to fortnight, or die in diem. But this is a most critical time of the year. the Government could not even draw up We shall have in a month or six weeks the Order without the grossest blunders. all the cattle now under cover turned This Order in Council was dated the 3rd of out. At Lady Day there will be changes January. The quarter sessions met with-in tenancies, sales of produce, breeding out exception on the 1st or 2nd of January, and grazing difficulties, in fact, all sorts and consequently, though they might dis- of movements and re-arrangements. Uncuss, they could not pass the resolutions, less between this and then we succeed and gentlemen, after attending the quarter in striking down this disease we shall sessions from different parts, were obliged find the landlords on the eve of bankto separate without doing anything in re- ruptcy, and the tenants on the eve of spect to these resolutions. Was it fair for ruin. I cannot conceive any calamity the Government to throw the country into greater than that which at this moment all this confusion, and cause this unneces-threatens to overwhelm us; and what sary grievance? Was there no almanack has Her Majesty's Government done to in any department of the Privy Council to avert it? They have done absolutely noinform the noble Earl that by Act of Par-thing-nothing-nothing. I listened to liament all quarter sessions are to be held all that fell from the noble Earl with great on a certain day, or was the Home Secre- attention, but I could not trace the faintest tary really ignorant of the facts, or was he indication in it of one single measure of really indifferent to the whole matter? practical utility. I do not pretend to I should like to ask the Government the know what were the motives of Her Mareason of the very unsatisfactory nature of jesty's Government, but I will state to the these proceedings. The noble Earl says House what people in the country say. that a memorial in October was sent up When they did not call Parliament toto the Privy Council Office from one court gether in the autumn, people say that the of quarter sessions, pointing out the great Government knew its own insecure and danger attending the transmission of hides shaky position, and feared to meet Parliaand manure. If there is one thing more ment. When they did not act themthan another that is dangerous and dele- selves and use the power they were alterious it is the free transmission of hides ready possessed of, but threw the responand manures, but the Government did not sibility upon others, people say they feared deal with it until the 20th of January last; the clamour which might arise in the and this, of which in October the noble great towns at any disturbance of the Earl was warned as dangerous, was left meat market-that they dreaded the disutterly uncared for till that 20th of Jan-pleasure of the consumer rather than reuary. I will now ask the House to con-membered the duty of considering what sider a question which will be very often were the best interests of the whole asked-namely, "Where are we at this moment-what is the position in which we now stand?" Ever since the adoption of free trade the agriculture of the country has been mainly dependent on the breeding of stock; and can any reasonable man deny that in the destruction of stock a very great difficulty is imposed upon the farmer of England to maintain his solvency and to pay his way? Their cattle are perishing at the rate of 10,000 a week, and that rate is progressing under such circumstances that there is great probability that our agriculture will be brought to an entire stop; but if it do not disappear the loss of stock which has been already sustained, and is being now sustained, must so dislocate the whole circle and machinery of agriculture as in a short time to bring it to a standstill. A noble

VOL. CLXXXI. [THIRD SERIES.

community. I will not say myself that these conjectures are true; but I think it is perfectly clear from what has taken place that the Government were exceedingly ignorant. I do entreat them to bring forward at once, and without delay, some measures which will meet the difficulty. There are three things to be done. First of all we have to deal with the question of importation. Depend upon it, the agriculturists will never stand having a drawn sword continually sus pended over their heads in the shape of imported disease always ready to descend upon them. Importation must, therefore, either be regulated, or it must be stopped. Secondly, something must be done in the next few weeks to smite down the disease, and to bring it within manageable compass. God knows whether that is now possible

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or not, but it is the bounden duty of the Government to try. Thirdly, when the disease is checked some carefully constructed and efficient machinery must be devised by which we may eradicate it as often and as fast as it appears again; for I fear it will live in the country for years and years before it finally disappears. I was glad to hear the noble Earl say the Government would next week propose some Bill on this question; but I should have been much better pleased if he had at once laid his proposition on the table. Every single hour of delay swells the mischief in an enormous degree, and I hope to have before the close of the debate some more satisfactory assurance on this point.

conspiracy, which are not generally known. In 1858-9 the Government of the noble Earl who sits near me (the Earl of Derby) had received information of the existence of the Phoenix Society, evidently the pre. cursor and nursery of Fenianism. Some ten or twelve persons were then arrested, and one of them, named Sullivan, was sentenced to ten years' penal servitude. The others, owing to some informality in their trials, were re-committed, the presiding Judge thinking the evidence so strong against them that he refused to admit them to bail. In the interval before the next trial my noble Friend retired from office, and was succeeded by the late Government. The first act of Mr. Cardwell -who was appointed Secretary for Ire land under the new Administration-was to liberate all those persons, on the condition that they should plead guilty and be liberated on their recognizances, holding them liable at any time to be called up for judgment. This was done; but these prisoners made it a condition, before they would accept these terms, that their colleague, who had been sentenced to ten years' penal servitude, should also be released on the same terms. Of these men, three were named Donovan, Rosser, and Mulghany. What, I ask, has been the result of that misplaced leniency? Why, that the very men I have mentioned have been tried again and sentenced to ten

THE MARQUESS OF ABERCORN: My Lords, in the few observations I am about to make, I shall confine myself to one point only. I agree with the noble Mover and Seconder of the Address in their remarks upon the mischievous conspiracy which has unfortunately broken out in Ireland; and I think with them, that the measures adopted by the Lord Lieutenant have been marked with vigour and good sense. The dignified demeanour of the Judges, the courage and discernment dis played by the juries under circumstances of no ordinary difficulty, the prudent and courteous attitude of the counsel for the prosecution and, indeed, for the defence also have all tended to increase the dig-years' penal servitude by the Commission nity of the law in Ireland. But while I which has recently held its sittings in do not find fault, and feel rather inclined Ireland, for the aggravated offence of to give praise for what has happened since which they have since been guilty; the the issue of the Special Commission, I Government having, with what I cannot think the late Government have acted most help regarding as a total want of judgunwisely in delaying these prosecutions so ment, permitted them to remain in Dublin long. It is hardly fair to charge upon the during the last four or five years hatching present Government of Ireland the delays their plots, instead of having, as they of its predecessor; but the Home Govern- might have done, according to the terms ment is substantially the same, and there- imposed in 1859, called them up for judgfore we can hardly acquit them altogether. ment. Again, the head of the conspiraThe delay which postponed these tors prosecuShake otherwise the notorious tions until after the general election was Stephens, who had absconded to avoid most unwise and most unfortunate. It being convicted by my noble Friend's Gomay be invidious to inquire too closely vernment, was, notwithstanding that the what so suddenly aroused the Government Government were in possession of evifrom its slumbers to a sense of danger dence in connection with him, which at the exact moment when the votes of ought to have made them cautious, allowed the electors were all recorded at the ge- to return to Ireland, and to lay the founneral election; but, whatever the cause, dation of all those machinations which the Government has incurred a deep re- have almost broken out into open insurrecsponsibility for allowing the seeds of sedition; while Donovan became the editor of tion to be sown broadcast before their eyes. With your permission, my Lords, I will state a few facts respecting this Fenian The Earl of Carnarvon

The Irish People, and was allowed to propagate the most violent and seditious doctrines, although the Government had