join such a committee, and he would assure their Lordships' that, if he had been, he should with pleasure have done what he could to make himself useful. He would, if required, hand in the paper from which he had obtained this information, although he would not mention the name of the Coastguard officer who, with such complete ignorance upon the subject, had yet given such advice to the National Lifeboat Institution as had prevented them from placing a lifeboat at that spot. A coroner's jury had returned a verdict in the case of the men drowned upon the foundering of the brig to which he had alluded, and in that verdict they expressed their opinion that life might have been saved if the Coastguard had rendered the fishermen that assistance which they ought to have done in preparing the boat. He thought that the Government ought to afford assistance in some way or another to this noble Institution. It was not, in his opinion, creditable to this great maritime country that the rescue of our imperilled seamen should be entirely left to the care of private generosity and benevolence. The Government had certainly done a good deal, but in the last and most pressing emergency, they refused to lend a helping hand to those who were carrying on the commerce from which this country derived its wealth and importance, and our seamen were indebted for their rescue solely to this great and noble Institution. THE DUKE OF SOMERSET said, he quite agreed with his noble Friend that the National Lifeboat Institution was one of the noblest of the many noble institutions established by the private benevolence of the country, but he should strongly deprecate any interference with its work, because he believed such interference would only be attended with injury. If the Government undertook to do any part of the work now performed by the National Lifeboat Institution they could not avoid clashing. As the noble Earl had not informed him beforehand of the charge which he intended making against an individual branch of the Coastguard, he had of course been unable to make any inquiries into the circumstances. He could only say that the Coastguard all along our coasts had contributed largely towards saving life and property. In 1864 the value of property saved through their instrumentality amounted to £740,000, and the number of lives saved was 598. In the first three-quarters of last year they had saved 432 lives, and £390,000 worth of property. During the last three months the number of lives and the amount of property saved was proportionately still larger. If there was any case in which the Coastguard had not done their duty it must be an exceptional one. They were constantly ready to risk their own lives. in the hope of rescuing the property and the lives of others. But it was not correct that the National Lifeboat Institution was not in any way assisted by the Government. The Board of Trade allowed £18 to each lifeboat when they were reported well manned and ready for cases of emergency. What the National Lifeboat Institution did was to place a lifeboat on those parts of the coast where they found the fishermen ready to drill and be trained, and offers of boats had been made to the National Lifeboat Institution which they were as yet unable to accept, because they could not find the men to undertake their management. He had no doubt that if the Government were to take upon themselves that duty their interference would be destructive of the National Lifeboat Institution; and he would remind their Lordships that the Society had excited so much admiration in France that the French Government had given their countenance to the establishment in their own country of one of a precisely similar character. The founders of that French institution had applied to their Government for assistance; but the Emperor, with that sagacity which distinguished him, had refused to accede to that application, and had stated that he would not in that matter interfere with the generous and benevolent action of his people. He admitted the excellence of the boats possessed by the Institution, and he had had some of them copied and sent to the West Coast of Africa, where they were of great advantage in landing through the surf. With regard to the rocket stations, he had to observe that they were furnished at the expense of the Government, that those stations at present amounted to about 250, and that last year they had been instrumental in saving 180 lives. He repeated that he did not think it would be wise on the part of the Government to interfere further than they had done in assisting the National Lifeboat Institution. During the past year the boats of that Institution had saved 500 lives, besides giving rewards to the owners of shore and fishing boats who had saved 200 more. Under these circumstances, he thought it would be bad policy not to leave the action of the Institution uncontrolled. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, he was anxious that he should not be misunderstood in reference to the Coastguard. He had referred to the report of an inquest in a particular case which had appeared in the public newspapers. The noble Duke might be right in assuming that any interference on the part of Government might do more harm than good, but that did not alter the fact that there was a deficiency in the number of lifeboats on our coast a fact that was amply proved by the constant endeavours to increase their number. In the case of Christchurch, to which he had referred, the lifeboat, which was offered, but refused, might have saved lives last Sunday. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he believed the National Lifeboat Institution were ready to give the most favourable consideration to any application that might be made to them for the supply of a lifeboat; but it was necessary, before a lifeboat was stationed at a place, that it should be shown that it could be advantageously employed, and that there were a sufficient number of persons willing to come forward to form a committee. Had this been the case at Christchurch a lifeboat would doubtless have been stationed at that place, although it would not have been of much use, as wrecks off that coast were very rare, it being only frequented by small coasters. With regard to the statement which had been made that the Government did not contribute in any way towards saving the lives of our sailors, he felt bound to say that Government defrayed the whole expense of the rocket stations, which were worked by the Coastguard. That body, however, had other duties to perform, from which it would not do to take them away in order to attach them to the Lifeboat Institution-especially as the efficiency of the Institution was more likely to be preserved when under the management of private persons whose local interests induced them to give a zealous watchfulness over the efficiency of the service, than when left to the services of Government officers who might have other duties to perform. He, therefore, thought it would be better for the matter to be left in the hands of those who had so efficiently managed the affairs of the Institution up to the present time. The Institution had attracted the attention of the Emperor of The Duke of Somerset the French, who had requested the association to supply him with eleven boats for the use of the coast of France; but he had distinctly expressed his objection to their being placed under the control of the French Admiralty, preferring that they should be managed as they were in England by private enterprize. He should, therefore, advise the Government not to interfere further in the matter. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY repeated that the main reason why no lifeboat was stationed at Christchurch was that the Coastguard officers there declared that it was not wanted, and that there was no local committee ready to look after the undertaking. He had again to express his belief that the latter statement was unfounded. PUBLIC LOAN ACTS. TREASURY MINUTE 1859. OBSERVATIONS. THE EARL OF POWIS rose to call the attention of the First Lord of the Treasury to the impediment to the beneficial working of the Public Loan Acts caused by the Treasury Minute of 1859, declining any future reduction of interest below 5 per cent. The noble Earl said that there were two kinds of loans to which the Treasury Minute of 1859 applied-one being loans to private individuals or companies, and the other to public bodies on the security of county and borough rates. Now, the Government might occasionally sustain losses from the want of sufficient security in the former case, and there was, perhaps, nothing unreasonable in their covering the risk which they incurred by charging as high an interest as 5 per cent; but there could be no danger of their not being repaid for the advances which they made on the security of public rates, and it appeared to him that they might in that instance reduce their terms to 3 or 4 per cent, or the rate of interest paid on Exchequer Bills for the time being. When the new Poor Law was passed in England, it led to numerous loans for the purpose of building workhouses, in all of which the Treasury reduced the rate of interest below 5 per cent. In this way £5,000 was advanced to the parish of Paddington, and £50,000 to the City of London Union. In the case of Ireland, when the Poor Law was introduced the Treasury went farther, for they granted loans, to be repaid out of the poor rate, on which no interest was to be charged for the first ten years after the buildings complained of was that a practice which had been of such value to the country should be abrogated, not on any sound reason, or on account of any loss to the State, but because the Treasury thought fit to issue a Minute on the subject. He had not thought fit to make any Motion on the subject, but would be content to bring it under the notice of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, who, he trusted, would cause the Minute of 1859 to be reconsidered. were fit for the reception of inmates. That, however, was an exceptional case, and he did not wish them to do anything of the sort, but merely to go back to the old practice of making such a rate only as would secure them against loss. To show the extent to which the Exchequer Loan Commissioners had granted loans, he found that between the years 1817 and 1843 they amounted to £8,670,000, the entire loss upon which, from insufficient security, was £300,000. From 1843 to 1852 the sum of £4,000,000 was advanced in a EARL RUSSELL said, there could be no similar manner. As regarded counties, doubt but that the advances made by the these loans were obtained chiefly for the Public Loans Commissioners was a great construction of bridges, which were now advantage to the borrowers; but the noble thrown on the county rate, and for the Earl (the Earl of Powis) found fault with gaols and lunatic asylums. In parishes the change made in the rate of interest by they were sought principally for the con- the Treasury Minute of 1859. By a restruction of workhouses, and in towns for cent Act of Parliament the Treasury were providing burial grounds, the erection of empowered to lay down in their discretion baths and washhouses, waterworks, and rules under which loans were to be made. various other works of local improvement. In 1856 they made a rule that the rate of There was a note to the Return he had interest should vary with the common rate just quoted (which was a Return made to of interest in the market; but it was obvithe House of Commons in 1854), which ous that if there was justice in this arrangestated that the cost to the country of the ment there was uncertainty and inconloans so made averaged 3 per cent, and venience. The Loan Commissioners were as the loans were made at 3 and 4 per not in the position of ordinary moneycent, or Exchequer Bill interest, the Go- lenders, and if persons could obtain money vernment had not incurred any loss. It at a cheaper rate they would not go to further said that on the loans in Great the Commissioners. What the Treasury Britain the profits were beyond the losses decided in 1859 was that the rate of inby bad debts. He was not asking for any terest should be fixed at 5 per cent, eleemosynary grant. All public bodies which was neither very high nor very low, would rather borrow money of the Public and fair to all parties. Certain exceptions Loans Commissioners than from any private had, however, been made under the Act of source, because they could repay it by in- Parliament. In laying down that rule the stalments-an arrangement which was not Treasury had acted wisely, and he was liked by the private lender, who, when his not disposed to make any alteration. money was returned in so fragmentary a LORD OVERSTONE said, that these manner, would have continually to be loans, though nominally loans of money, making new investments, and be put to are in reality advances of the capital of the new expenses. By the Treasury Minute country; and what the Government did of 1859, it was announced that no further was to interpose its character and credit advances could be made at a lower rate of under the authority of an Act of Parliainterest than 5 per cent, and for this step ment. By this operation the capital was various reasons were assigned, which in withdrawn from its natural and therefore his opinion were wholly insufficient to legitimate channels of useful employment, justify the Government in making the and grave doubts may be fairly enterchange, and were rather those of an usuri-tained whether the Government was justious money-lender than those of the Go- fied in interposing in this way. vernment of a great nation. Many bur- gard to the rate of interest, he thought dens were now thrown by the Legislature that that should be fixed rather above than upon the land, to the exclusion of any below the market rate. The noble Earl other kind of property, and they had, who introduced this subject complained therefore, a right to every assistance the that in 1859 a regulation was made proGovernment could give them without cost hibiting the advance of public money at a or risk to the country, and thus enable lower rate of interest than 5 per cent. It them to bear those burdens. What he was remarkable that since that period there With re had been a constant tendency in the rate of interest to rise, and he was surprised that the present moment should be taken to recommend the loan of Government money at a lower rate. It was well known that in consequence of recent legislation speculation had been greatly stimulated, a result which he had from the first anticipated, and the country was committed to undertakings which involved a far larger amount of capital than it could command, and the rate of interest in the City had been for some months 3 per cent higher than the continental markets. This country used to supply capital to all the markets in the world: but the case is now reversed, and this country is now compelled to seek capital from other countries by the high rate of 8 per cent interest; yet this was the moment taken to urge the Government to interpose its credit to divert the capital from all private concerns to support those public works. If the Government was called upon to find capital for the construction of public works, surely justice, reason, and policy pointed out that they should not lend it at a lower rate than the market value. CATTLE DISEASES BILL.-QUESTION. THE EARL OF AIRLIE, who had given notice of his intention to ask the Government Whether, in the event of the Cattle Diseases Bill coming up to the Lords before the 17th instant, they intended to proceed with it on that day, said, that when he gave that notice he thought it possible that the Bill might reach their Lordships' House earlier than it was now likely to do; but he would take the present opportunity of stating that several noble Lords on both sides of the House were of opinion that the Bill should be passed as quickly as possible. LORD DENMAN said, that as their Lordships were to have an imperfect Bill, which could not be altered in their House, he wished, as he had attended important meetings both yesterday and to-day, at which complaint was made of ignorant persons insisting upon visiting diseased cattle in spite of all remonstrances, that some clause might be added to the Bill, to render persons liable to punishment who entered infected farms. He had himself warned off three packs of hounds which were kept separate and at large on different farms, and he had told those who were with them that they would be chargeable with malicious trespass if they persisted Lord Overstone in hunting after notice, but he was very anxious that a stop might be put to all unnecessary danger of infection. LORD DUNSANY asked whether the Government had received information that any cattle had been smuggled into Ireland from Scotland; and, if so, what precautions had been taken to prevent it; also, if it was the case that an Order in Council had lately been issued permitting the importation of the skin of sheep or lambs under certain conditions into Ireland. If such were the case it was desirable that the fact should be generally known, in order that the people of Ireland might be put on their guard against the purchase of cattle under such circumstances. EARL GRANVILLE was understood to say that 126 sheep had been imported from Scotland into Ireland in the month of October last; that the importation was contrary to law, and that the parties perpetrating the offence would be prosecuted. It had not come to the knowledge of the Government that the attempt had been repeated. It was true that an Order in Council of the character of that to which the noble Earl referred had been issued. House adjourned at a quarter before POLICEMEN IN PLAIN CLOTHES. QUESTION. LORD HENRY LENNOX said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the employment of Police Constables in plain clothes at night in the suburban districts of the Metropolis, and to the serious results which have already occurred, and are likely to occur in consequence; and especially to the recent case at Sydenham, when Police Constable Maddock was severely wounded on the highway by a man named Joseph Ferguson, now confined in Maidstone Gaol, but who at the time of the assault believed that he was only defending himself and his property against the attacks of a robber? SIR GEORGE GREY said, in reply, that he did not know anything of the particular case to which the noble Lord had referred, and, consequently, he could give no information in regard to it. With respect, however, to the general question as to the employment of policemen in plain clothes in the metropolis, he might state that the practice was adopted in 1862 in consequence of the number of garrotte robberies which had taken place in London, and it has also been followed in certain districts where numerous burglaries had been committed. It was ascertained that those robberies were committed during the absence of the ordinary police constables in uniform, who were watched on their rounds till they were away from the spot. It was necessary, in order to put a stop to such robberies, to employ constables in plain clothes. The report of a recent trial showed that a certain class of thieves very closely watched the movements of the police. LAW OFFICERS (IRELAND). QUESTION. COLONEL LESLIE said, he rose to ask the Attorney General for Ireland, What arrangements are made to carry on the Government business in that Country without the presence of any Law Officer, the Law Adviser, contrary to precedent, being now in Parliament, as well as the Attorney and Solicitor General ? THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAWSON), in reply, said, that he was not aware that any charge had been made, or could be made, as to the mode in which the business of the Irish Government was being carried on. It was true that he and his Colleague had seats in the House, but that did not in the least interfere with the proper discharge of their duty. In fact, that duty was discharged as effectually in London as in Dublin. With respect to that part of the question which referred to the circumstance of the Law Adviser having a seat in that House, he thought it right to correct any misapprehension which might exist as to the hon. Member for Dungarvan, who did not now fill the office of Law Adviser of the Irish Government. The hon. Member resigned that office, and his resignation was accepted before the general election; but as, in the then state of affairs in Ireland, it was not deemed expedient to make any change, he (Mr. Lawson) had requested the hon. Gentleman to continue to assist him. This the hon. Gentleman had done, but he received no salary for his services. With respect to the last part of the question of the hon. and gallant Member, which seemed to complain of there being so many of the Irish Law Officers in the House, he (Mr. Lawson) must confess that he did not see why that fact should be brought forward as a charge against the Government. Indeed, if his memory served him right, the Government had been taunted on former occasions on account of the absence of the Irish Law Officers from that House. CATTLE PLAGUE BILL.-QUESTION. An hon. MEMBER asked, Whether, considering the extreme urgency of the case, the Cattle Diseases Bill would be proceeded with to-morrow? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is not likely, I think, Sir, in any event, that the House will be at liberty to consider the Cattle Plague Bill to-mor row. I may take this opportunity of making the Motion, That the House at its rising do adjourn till twelve o'clock tomorrow. The cause of this is that an important matter of public business with respect to Ireland may have to be brought forward by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who will in a few minutes proceed to give notice of his Motion. MR. BRIGHT: I wish to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with regard to the Bill which is coming on for discussion very soon, whether it is intended to continue the experiments which |