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were carried there clandestinely, in small there could be no possible reason for a vessels, from England.

second collection. On the other hand, Sir GEORGE GREY said, he could however, if a fund raised, either by a not state what the specific instructions voluntary rate or by local contributions, were, but instructions to the effect men- was applicable to another purpose, it would tioned had been given. A short time ago still be necessary, in order to give comhe received a request from the Lord Lieu pensation for animals slaughtered under tenant that a vigilant supervision should be the Bill, to raise a sufficient sum for this exercised by the Customs authorities at purpose by rate. the ports in England and especially in Scotland whence cattle might possibly be CATTLE PLAGUE (SCOTLAND)-MEETembarked for Ireland. The attention of

ING OF SCOTCH MEMBERS. the Irish Government had been closely

QUESTION directed to the subject, and no doubt they had given specific instructions to guard

LORD ELCHO said, the Lord Advocate against the danger apprehended.

had called a meeting of Scotch Members

for two o'clock to-morrow in the tea-room THE CATTLE PLAGUE (IRELAND). on the subject of the Cattle Plague. He QUESTION.

should like to know, What was the particular The O'DONOGHUE asked the Attor

question to be discussed ?

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, his obney General for Ireland, Whether he did ject was to ascertain the views of Scotch not think there was great danger in de Members, respecting those clauses of the laying the introduction of a measure to Cattle Diseases Bill which applied to Scotmeet the requirement of Ireland, should land, and especially with respect to the the cattle plague extend there?

machinery for carrying out the provisions THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

of the Bill in Scotland. IRELAND (Mr. Lawson), in reply, said, that already an Order in Council was in force

NEW COURTS OF LAW.-QUESTION. in Ireland with respect to the cattle plague, and a Bill had also been prepared on the

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK asked, subject, and would be submitted to the What course the Government intends to House as soon as practicable.

pursue in reference to the selection of the Major KNOX wished to put a Question architectural designs for the new Courts of

Law ? to the Home Secretary on a subject which had excited great alarm in the north of

MR. COWPER said, the designs for the Ireland. He wished to know whether it new Courts of Justice and Offices would was true that an Order in Council had been

be selected by competition among archi. issued, or was about to be issued, for the tects. As the preparation of those designs admission of hides and skins of sheep and would require very protracted and minute lambs into Ireland in a disinfected state? study in order to meet the special requireSin GEORGE GREY replied that no

ments of the courts and offices, competisuch proposal had ever been made to him, tion would be restricted to a small number or, so far as he was aware, to any Member of architects, and the selection of the of the Government.

architects would be intrusted to a com

mittee, which would include eminent memTHE CATTLE PLAGUE-COMPENSATION bers of the legal profession and Members RATE.-QUESTION.

of the Government. SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER asked

ORDERS OF THE DAY. the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether in those counties in

Ordered, That the first Three Orders of which a Rate for Compensation has already the Day be postponed till after the other been raised by voluntary assessment, those Orders of the Day. who had paid such Rate would be relieved

CATTLE DISEASES BILL-[Bill 6.] by the amount they have already paid from contributing to the Rate to be raised by the local authority ?

[The Bill having been Committed, Re-comSiR GEORGE GREY said, that if there mitted, and Considered as Amended, withexisted already a fund in hand applicable out having been re-printed, great difficulty to the same purpose as the proposed rate, has been experienced in following out the


Motions for Amendments, particularly those / ing out clauses should be gone through at of which no Notice had been given. When once with a view to expedite matters. a Clause has been agreed to, with or with

Motion agreed to :-House fin Commitout Amendment, the small figures added

tec. refer to the No. of the corresponding Clause

(In the Committee.) in the re-print of the Bill No. 22.]

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Order of the Day for Committee read.

Clause 3 postponed. On Question, That Mr. Speaker do now

Clause 4 agreed to. leave the Chair ;

Clause 5 (Local Authority in Counties in MR. PUGH said, he wished to say a Scotland). word with reference to that part of the THE LORD ADVOCATE rose to ad. country (Carmarthenshire) with which he dress the Committeewas connected; that was at present unin- MR. DISRAELI said, he wished to ask, fected, as were, he was happy to say, ten with a view to the progress of the public counties in Wales. All, of course, were business, whether the explanation which for preventing diseased cattle from being the Lord Advocate was about to give was brought into the district, but there seemed the same as that which he intended to give to be no reason for stopping the free move- at the meeting in the tea-room to-morrow. ment of cattle throughout the whole of that It was his object to facilitate the progress uninfected area. In the interesting memo- of the Bill, which he had been in hopes randum published in The Times yesterday would be passed through Committee that on the course of the distemper in the last night. But if there were an arrangement century, it was stated that then also an by which a section of the Government was attempt was made totally to prohibit the to meet a section of the Members of that movement of cattle for a limited period, House to-morrow it might have the effect but that it was abandoned on account of of preventing the passing of the Bill through the violent opposition which it encountered. Committee that night. He trusted that the He wished that nothing of the kind should Lord Advocate would make his explanation happen now; that they should have no oc- then with the view of expediting the Bill. casion to retrace their steps; or to say of THE LORD ADVOCATE said, the exany part of the Bill improvidé emanavit. planation which he intended to give had It would be seen from the same memoran-reference not to the meeting to be held todum that in the subsequent outbreaks the morrow, but to one which had been held safety of the country was sufficiently pro- two or three days ago, in which the Scotch vided for by the proclamation of infected Members were unanimously of opinion that places, and the prohibition of the removal of tenant-farmers should be associated with cattle from them. He hoped that draw. the local authorities in working the Bill. ing a cordon around them or something of Sir JAMES FERGUSSON said, he the kind might now, or soon, be found to be would not delay the Committee on any sufficient. There were other districts matter which was not of first-rate importsimilarly situated. It would be a satis- ance, but to his mind there were faction to all to know that their case had points in the clause which were highly obbeen considered, though their wishes might jectionable, and which he would have eliminot be gratified to the full extent. He nated. In the first place the tenant-farmers, would leave the matter in the hands of the who were properly disposed to associate Government. All that was wanted was, with the justices of counties in forming to relax the stringency of the 21st clause, County Boards, and whom it was proposed so as to except the uninfected districts, very justly to associate with the Commis. which could be done when they came to sioners of Supply, were to be nominated that clause or in a subsequent stage of the by the lord-lieutenant. That was not reproceedings.

spectful to the tenant-farmers, who were COLONEL SYKES said, that on Tuesday quite as capable of electing their reprelast, before the adjournment of the House, sentatives to the Board as the magistrates he had made a suggestion which he thought themselves. In the second place, it was it would be well to adopt. It was—That proposed that in case the county authorities the compensation clauses, which excited should be remiss in enforcing the Act, the much diversity of opinion, should be made Secretary of State, through the sheriff of into a separate Bill, and that the stamp- the county, should have power to do so.


Now, there was no reason whatever to in- in the clause should be “not less than four, troduce a provison which contemplated that nor more than fifteen." the local authorities would not do their duty. Amendment agreed to. No provision of the kind had been introduced with regard to England, and it was

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON said, he equally unnecessary with respect to Scot- desired to draw attention to the omission land.

of any qualification for the tenant-farmers LORD HENRY SCOTT said, he would who were to be nominated by the Lord recommend the postponement of the clause Lieutenant. He would move an Amenduntil after the meeting to be held to-morrow, ment to insert the words "valued in the as it involved questions of great importance. valuation roll in force for the time at £100

LORD ELCHO said, that as it was desir- a year or upwards." able that the measure should be proceeded

The LORD ADVOCATE said, he conwith without delay, this clause, which ap- sented to the proposed change. plied only to Scotland, and was likely to Amendment agreed to. raise some discussion among Scotch Members, should be postponed.

MR. DUNLOP moved that the sheriff MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE said, he of the county should form part of the Local did not see how the postponement of the Board. clause would expedite the progress of the Amendment agreed to. Bill. Sir ANDREW AGNEW said, that

MR. CARNEGIE moved the insertion celerity was the object which they had in of words making "Lord Lieutenant and the view, and he did not see how it was pos- convener of the county ex officio members sible in a short time to get tenants to hold of the Local Board.” mass meetings to elect representatives. Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, that it was the universal opinion on this subject

THE LORD ADVOCATE moved the that whatever was to be done should be omission of the words at the end of the done without the slightest delay. Now, clause empowering the Home Secretary the tenant-farmers of Scotland were not a to nominate the persons to carry out the legally.constituted body, and if they were Act in Scotland, in case the Lord Lieuto elect the members of the County Board, tenant or Commissioners of Supply neglect providing the machinery for that election to do so. would cause much loss of time. He there.

Amendment agreed to. fore thought it would be better to leave the election of the Board to the Lords Lieu- SIR JAMES FERGUSSON moved an tenant and Commissioners of Supply. addition to the clause, giving the local With regard to the latter part of the authorities of counties power over all clause, he had no desire to retain it if the the boroughs within their respective counfeeling of the Committee was against it. ties, except as to compensation - that

MR. CUMMING-BRUCE said, he should being left to the boroughs. He prosupport the Amendment. The election of the posed to exempt Glasgow and Edinburgh. County Board ought to be left in the bands The great number of local jurisdictions in of the tenant-farmers, who were the persons the counties had been the great difficulty interested, and not intrusted to the Lords in putting the Orders in Council into execuLieutenant, whose appointments were based tion. Any disputes arising should be left on purely political grounds.

to the arbitration of the sheriff, whose de

cision should be final. Amendment negatived.

The LORD ADVOCATE said, he could SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, not agree to the Amendment. The clause he wished to ask the Lord Advocate what was framed like the similar clause relating nuinber of persons the proposed County to England. If the burghs were to be legisBoards were to consist of ?

lated for by the County Board, it would be THE LORD ADVOCATE: Not less necessary for them to be represented at the than four, nor more than ten.

Board. SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, COLONEL SYKES said, that if Edinhe thought that the numbers proposed were, burgh and Glasgow were to be exempted, especially for large counties, too small. He he should claim a similar exemption for moved, as an Amendment, that the words Aberdeen. VOL. CLXXXI. THIRD SERIES.]


: SIR JAMES FERGUSSON said, that, sary that the local authorities in the unless his Amendment were agreed to, it various counties should be at once conwould be possible for the boroughs to stituted without delay under the Act, in neglect carrying out the regulations. In order to be in readiness to carry out its some of the Scotch boroughs the Orders in provisions, and it might so happen that Council and those of the county local au- in certain counties the justices might althorities had been set at naught. If the together object to the Act being brought Government objected to his Amendment in into operation there. He would, therefore, its present shape, he would suggest that suggest that the clause should be made the chief magistrate in the boroughs should imperative in its language, and instead of be associated with the county authorities. beginning with the words "any two or

MR. CUMMING-BRUCE said, he hoped more justices may,” should commence that the Amendment would be accepted ; ! thus :—"The Clerk of the Peace in every although he admitted that, if Edinburgh county in England and Wales shall be and and Glasgow were exempted, Aberdeen, hereby is required to summon a General Dundee, and one or two other of the larger Sessions," &c. The effect of that would towns should enjoy a similar exemption. be to have the proper local authority con

SIR ANDREW AGNEW said, he trusted stituted at once in every county. that the operation of the Bill would not be SiR GEORGE GREY said, the object of frustrated by the clashing of the local au- the clause was to facilitate the meeting of thorities. He thought that the Lord Ad. a general sessions without delay where the vocate might frame a proviso that would quarter sessions have not been adjourned, meet the wishes of the hon. Member for and to obviate the inconvenience arising Ayrshire.

from the necessity of giving a lengthened SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, notice. He had addressed a letter to the thatif the Government would adopt the sug- chairmen of quarter sessions, pointing gestion of the right hon. Member for Calne out the expediency of adjourning for short (Mr. Lowe) and define the powers to be periods, and in many cases they had done exercised, then these discretionary powers that. Where that was so, it was not neceswould not be required ; but if the Bill sary that these general sessions should be were to remain in its present shape, the convened, because the quarter sessions Amendment of the hon. Baronet would could meet from time to time. In some defeat the whole object of the Bill. counties that had not been done, and in Amendment put, and negatived.

these it was necessary there should be

power to convene a general sessions. Per. Clause, as amended, agreed to. [cl. 5.] haps it would be better to provide that

where no adjourned sessions was appointed Clause 6 (Power to assemble General to be held within two or three days from Sessions)

the passing of that Act a general sessions MR. ADDERLEY said, there appeared should be convened forth with. He would to be an intentional omission in this clause. prepare a clause which should meet the By the clause it would appear that the jus- object of the Amendment. tices would have power to convene a general MR. HUNT said, it would be better sessions at any time. What he would proto postpone the clause and bring up a fresh pose was, that it should be confined to the one on the Report. first convening of the sessions, they having Sir GEORGE GREY said, he would power to adjourn from time to time.

The do so. object of the Bill was simplification ; but MR. HENLEY said, he hoped that care he was afraid confusion would be increased would be taken not to set up two authoriif general sessions could be convened by ties, for as the Bill was now drawn it was any two justices, each session acting inde- very doubtful whether the general sessions pendently and antagonistic to the other. and the quarter sessions would not be in

SiR FITZROY KELLY said, the clause existence both together. ran thus

MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE sug" Any two or more Justices of a County may, gested that the Secretary of State should by writing under their hands, require the Clerk insert the words “in England and Wales, of the Peace to summon a General Sessions of the so as to make it clear that the provisions Justices of the County for the purpose of carrying should not clash with those of Clause 5. into effect the provisions of this Act." Now, he apprehended it was quite neces- Clause postponed.

Colonel Sykes

Clause 7 (Power of Local Authority to facilities to the quarter sessions to discharge form Committee of its own Members and their duties. An hon. Member suggested others)

they should have the power of appointing MR. ADDERLEY said, that under this an executive committee. He presumed if clause there might be an unlimited number it were found necessary to appoint more of committees, leading to greater confusion than one committee rules would be laid than that which even now existed. At down for their guidance, so as to ensure first the Government began with the petty uniformity. He thought this might safely sessions; afterwards they felt it necessary be left to the quarter sessions, but he had to extend the area to the quarter sessions; no objection to postpone the clause and but even then they found that every quarter some of the subsequent clauses, as he sessions throughout the kingdom drew up thought that they might be discussed to a set of orders all more or less differing greater advantage when the House had The object of having an Act of Parliament, decided what the powers of the local autherefore, was to go a step further, and thorities should be. make the action national and uniform. Sir JOHN SIMEON said, that the Isle The existing machinery was sufficient in of Wight eminently required to be left to all respects except uniformty ; but that deal with the case by itself, and as far as that clause, as it stood, was actually a retro- island was concerned the Orders in Council grade step, for it disintegrated the quarter gave a convenient authority, The Isle of sessions, and introduced confusion worse Wight was a petty sessional division of the confounded. The proper course would be county of Hants ; and it would be a great to enable the quarter session of a county inconvenience for the inhabitants to have to delegate its authority to only one staud- to receive their orders from a central coming committee. He would have only one mittee for the whole county, sitting procommittee in each county except in parti bably at Winchester. cular cases, such as in the county of Hants, COLONEL EDWARDS said, that a conincluding the Isle of Wight, in which case siderable section of his constituents living he would have a second committee, taking in a district containing large herds of high care, however, to prevent the two from bred short-horned cattle, varying in value clashing. In that way they would avoid from £25 to £500 each, complained the issuing of clashing orders, and the bitterly of the arbitrary power of the local committee could act within proper restric- authorities contemplated by the Governtions in the intervals between the general ment Bill. It appeared to him that by the meetings. He hoped that that clause provisions of that Bill the Board would would also be postponed for re-construction. have power to destroy all the animals in

SIR HARRY VERNEY said, that in one farm or farm-stead, if in one solitary order to make the Bill popular it would be instance infection was proved or even susbest that the executive committees should pected. He (Colonel Edwards) deprecated be of mixed composition, having non- this arbitrary power as a gross injustice magisterial members upon them.

and a virtual confiscation of property when MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, that the amount of compensation was to be so if the local authorities were to have the disproportionate to its value. His consti. power of granting licences for the removal tuents feel that as in many cases where of cattle, of issuing orders for their slaughter the rinderpest has broken out, and where and of regulating matters of that kind, it isolation has been resorted to at the earliest was absurd to suppose that one committee stage, many cures have been effected—also, in the centre of a county would be sufficient that in cases where the immediate slaughter in cases where immediate action was ne- of the suspected animal has taken place cessary at any particular spot. He sug. the disease has been arrested—that exgested that the clause should be post- ceptions might fairly be made where such poned.

an amount of property was involved, and MR. DENT said, that the powers to be where no proportionate compensation was given to the committee would be very large. allowed to the owners, many of whom must He thought there should be only one com- otherwise be utterly ruined. mittee from whom all the directions should SIR GEORGE GREY said, it would emanate. If there were other committees perhaps be better to postpone the whole of they sbould be only executive.

the first part of the Bill until the House SIR GEORGE GREY said, that the had determined what the temporary proobject of the clause was merely to afford | visions should be.

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