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commend this proposal to the approbation of the House? Why, it was but last

COUNTY INFIRMARIES (IRELAND) BILL. week that Dr. Manning preached a sermon

On Motion of Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART, Bill for at the Oratory hard by in laudation of St. Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. POLLARD

the better regulation of County Infirmaries in Thomas, as they styled him. [Laughter.) URQUHART and Mr. O'REILLY. Hon. Members laughed ; perhaps they did Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 14.] not know whom Dr. Manning meant by St. Thomas. Why, it was no other than CHURCH RATES COMMUTATION BILL. Thomas A'Becket - an Archbishop of On Motion of Mr. NEWDEGATE, Bill for the Canterbury who resisted the laws of this commutation of Church Rates, ordered to be country, and who lost his life in con- brought in by Mr. Newdegate and Lord ROBERT sequence of his rebelling against the MONTAGU.

Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 12.] constitutions of Clarendon-constitutions passed 700 years ago by our Roman

TESTS (UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD). Catholic ancestors, to guard the freedom

Acts read ;-considered in Committee. and independence of this country against

(In the Committee.) the intrusion of a foreign jurisdiction

Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to that of the Papacy-laws passed for the move the House, that leave be given to bring in a very same object and purpose for which Bill to abolish certain Tests in the University of the negative declarations in the oath of Oxford.

Resolution reported. supremacy were now retained, and against

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. COLERIDGE which, in the very sermon to which be had and Mr. Grant Dufp. alluded, Dr. Manning protested, and urged Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 15.] all whom he could influence to rebel. He would not pursue the subject further. He JURIES IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL. would only say that the oaths-great part On Motion of Sir Colman O’LOGHLEN, Bill to of which the Government now sought to codify and amend the Law in relation to the keepdestroy represented a settlement estab-ing gether and discharge of Juries on the trial lished by Parliament only eight years ago, of Criminal Cases, ordered to be brought in by

Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN and Colonel French. after a struggle of eleven years.

Under

Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 16.] existing circumstances, it was not becoming in Her Majesty's Ministers to propose

House adjourned at half after to disturb that settlement ; indeed, it was

Five o'clock, scarcely decent.

Motion agreed to. Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Law relating to Parliamentary HOUSE OF COMMONS, Oaths. Resolution reported.

Wednesday, February 14, 1866.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir GEORGE
GREY, and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. MINUTES.] - SUPPLY Committee appointed
Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 13.] for Friday.

Resolution [Feb. 14] reported.
SUPPLY.

Public Bills-Second Reading-Cattle Diseases
Motion for Supply,-Committee on Mo- [6]; Cattle Plague * [7].
tion, “That a Supply be granted to Her
Majesty."

CATTLE DISEASES BILL-[BILL 6.] Queen's Speech referred :-Motion con

SECOND READING. sidered. (In the Committee.).

Moved, That the Bill be now read the Queen's Speech read.

second time.”—(Sir George Grey). Resolved, "That a Supply be granted MR. HUNT: Sir, in common with those to Her Majesty."

Gentlemen who have been kind enough to Resolution to be reported To-morrow. assist me in the preparation of the mea

sure which I laid on the table the other CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.

night, I have had the greatest difficulty in On Motion of Mr. HARDCASTLE, Bill for the arriving at a conclusion as to what course Abolition of Church Rates, ordered to be brought I ought to take with regard to the Bill in by Mr. HARDCASTLE, Mr. DILLWYN, and Mr. BAINE8.

now before the House, in consequence of Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 11.] the very great delay which took place before

Mr. Newdegate

the Bill reached the hands of Members. | Bill. Under the stress of circumstances I have had some experience as to the neces- I consented to that arrangement ; but do sity for such delay. On Thursday last, not let it be supposed that I think the after the meeting in St. James' Hall, it Government Bill, so far as one point-and first entered my mind to bring in a Bill

. I wish to confine my remarks to this point, At that time I had no Bill prepared, but I and to say nothing about the slaughter of gave my Notice to the House within an animals, and the compensation to be given hour after the meeting. On Monday, when for them-do not let it be supposed that I I moved for leave to introduce the measure, think the Government Bill a satisfactory I had a proof of the Bill in my hand, and one. The point to which I allude is the copies were in the hands of Members the removal of cattle. I believe it would be far next morning. If an independent Member better to keep to the present regulations, who has vo special means at his disposal inasmuch as people have now got to unfor preparing Bills can have a Bill prepared derstand them, rather than produce a and circulated within that time, I ask whe- new set of orders such as those provided ther the Government, with every means at in this Bill. I confess that when I heard their disposal, cannot do the same thing? the speech of the right hon. Gentleman I appeal to the House to compare the two (the Secretary for the Home Department) Bills, not on their merit, but on their con- the other night I was not prepared for a struction. I do not take any credit to my- Bill 50 permissive in its principle. And self on this point, because I am indebted here, I venture to observe, that it requires to a legal gentleman for the structure of very considerable attention to understand my Bill ; but I ask whether the Govern- this Bill. If I misunderstand it, I do not ment Bill does not bear far greater marks think I shall be to blame. From the speech of haste than mine. The only conclusion of the right hon. Baronet the other night I can come to is, that the gentleman who I understood that with respect to removals drew the Government Bill received his in the Bill would be this :-That there would structions so late that he was not able to be enacted in the Bill a code of regulations do justice to himself. The delay and the which all counties adopting the non-removal extraordinarily inconvenient structure of principle must accept ; that it was to be their Bill convince me that till the last mo- I left to the counties to adopt this principle ment the Government did not know the or not, but that if they adopted it they nature of the Bill they were going to lay must accept the statutory regulations. But on the table. A Bill was announced in I find that the whole structure of the Bill Her Majesty's most gracious Speech from is framed in the sense of permission to the the Throne ; notice was given of its intro- local authorities to adopt regulations or duction the first night of the Session on not : the idea of the Bill is permissiveness, which it was possible to do so; it was in and the difficulty of dealing with it in Comtroduced the same night as mine ; and yet mittee will arise from the permissive power it was not in the hands of Members till which it gives to local authorities in respect twenty-four hours after mine. I mention of those regulations. In the first clauses this to show the extreme embarrassment of the Bill, I think down to Clause 9, with in which those who act with me are placed the exception of the interpretation clauses, with regard to the Government Bill. Yes the several provisions have reference to terday, between three and four o'clock in getting the local authorities together, and the afternoon, a certain number of copies giving them certain powers. The difficulty of the Government Bill came to the House. will be that if we pass these provisions in I procured one ; but having given it to a Committee we shall be assenting to the friend, I found that all the other copies permissive principle. I do not see how we had been disposed of, and I could not get can go on passing these clauses in Comanother for myself till this morning. I mittee if we are to deny discretionary was asked last night by the organ of the power to those authorities. We then come Government in communication with Mem- to clauses which are compulsory on the bers of this House what course I intended local authorities ; but I do not find anyto take. I do not think an independent thing new in them. Clause 13 makes it Member was ever placed in so embarrassing compulsory on all local authorities to a position. It was suggested to me that slaughter diseased animals, and provides if I assented to the second reading of the compensation. I believe that between the Government Bill to-day, the Government compensation views of the Government and would assent to the second reading of my my own views on the same point there is not very much difference; but as to com

“ No cattle shall be moved, except by railway, pulsory slaughter, we have it now under after sunset and before sunrise, except within the the orders of the inspectors appointed by limits of the metropolis, inclusive of the City of the local authorities. The 14th clause provides for the burial and disinfection of That, I believe, is a regulation which has the carcass ; but this is nothing new. Then already been adopted by almost all the

local authorities. The clause, however, we come to the purification of sheds in

makes this important exception,“ which diseased animals have died or are

except slaughtered ; but, if I remember rightly, by railway.” Now, on this point I am dithe inspectors have the power to order rectly at issue with the Government. What such disinfection now. Clause 16 provides

I wish to insist upon is this—that unless for the slaughter of animals herding with you stop for a certain time all movement of diseased cattle. I believe this is a new cattle by railway it is utterly impossible to power. Coming to the isolation of infected prevent the spreading of the infection-I places, there are very stringent statutory

believe that unless you do so it will be rules as to what is tò be done with those utterly impossible to ensure the cleansing places. That is very good, but its value or disinfection of the cattle trucks. Allow is destroyed by a provision leaving it to fresh animals to be conveyed in them, and

the cattle trucks to be in daily use, allow the local authorities to decide what the infected area is. They may say it is a shed, you will keep alive the infection and have or a farm, or a hamlet, or a parish, or a

no power to stop it. The next paragraph

is in these terms petty sessions district, or a Parliamentary division, or a riding, or a county. And

“No animal shall be taken into the district how are the local authorities to settle this ? of that local authority for the time being in

of any local authority contrary to any prohibition They must call in the best professional as- force.” sistance to hand, and, perhaps, the inspectors so it is to be permissive to the local aumay be the best ; but I am sorry to say thorities to exclude animals from their that the opinion of some of those inspectors jurisdiction or not as they please. That is not worth more than the opinion of the first child whom you may happen to meet

was exceedingly objectionable-consider. in the street. Now, one of the greatest diffi- ing, too, that the Bill did not altogether culties we have experienced has been to it appeared, then, by the Government mea

the movement of cattle by railway. find competent men to fill the office of in. spector. 'So ignorant have some of them should be desirous of excluding the intro

sure, that even though the local authorities showed themselves that in some they had actually certified that no disease

duction of cattle within their district they

would not have the power of preventing their existed, where the cattle were in fact affected, and consequently spreading the movement by railway, although they might disease around. Surely the Government stop them from passing along the ordinary

roads. The clause, as it went on, again could not suppose that by such a provision they were going to stop the operation of gave the local authorities a permissive the infection. To come, however, to the power which he considered very objec

tionable question of the movement of cattle. That is a point to which I wish to draw the

“ No cattle shall be moved along any highway attention of the House, because it is in within the district of a local authority, except for

a distance not exceeding 200 yards from part to respect to this point that those who agree part of the same farm, where the local authority in opinion with me are completely at issue has prohibited such movement; and where no with the Government. The first paragraph such prohibition exists, no cattle shall be moved of the 21st section is as follows:

along any highway within the district of a local Great Britain or from any place out of the United local authority.” " All cattle brought by sea from any place in authority, except as aforesaid, without the licence

or contrary to the tenor of the licence of such Kingdom into any town or place in Great Britain shall be marked by clipping the hair off the end So that if any local authorities do not of the tail, and no such cattle shall be removed choose to make a prohibition, you allow alive from such town or place by land."

them to grant a licence of removal under I do not object to that paragraph, though any conditions they may choose to adopt. I do not know whether - by land” will Now, those conditions may be of a very include conveyance by railway. If not, different and varied character in the several however, the words may easily be amended districts ; and being so, the cattle owners in Committee.

the will be compelled to run here and there for second paragraph of the same clause-- the purpose of ascertaining what are the

cases

Mr. Hunt

Then we

come

conditions of the Orders which apply to adjoining counties :-If the movement of particular districts into or through which cattle is free in one and prohibited in the they wish to send their cattle. That may other, the persons who purchase fat cattle appear to some hon. Members to be a small from the farmers will be able to get cattle matter ; but I can assure the House that almost at their own price in the county it will prove a most serious and perplexing where the restrictions exist, because, if the arrangement. The right hon. Gentleman farmers refuse to sell them, the purchasers opposite seemed the other night to think could get what beasts they wanted in the that I came here with the peculiar views of county where there are no restrictions. I Northamptonshire. Now, those views were believe that the cattle owners in the counvery fully expressed at a meeting over which ties which have been very hard hit by the I had the honour to preside, held in the disease would submit to almost any restricCorn Exchange at Northampton, and the tions, if they thought they gave a chance same resolution was passed there as was of stopping the disease.

But they say, passed the other day, with only two dis- and with sound reason, that it is but fair sentients, at the meeting held in St. they should all be placed upon an equality. James' Hall, at which representatives from If the farmers of one district are to be forty-four counties were present. That subjected to certain restrictions they natushows that the views of Northamptonshire rally complain that their neighbours should are the same as those which are enter- possess the advantage of being spared their tained by the country at large. Still, infliction. That is the reason why they Northamptonshire is very peculiarly cir- objected so much to the Government Orcumstanced, and I ask permission of the der lately repealed with regard to cattle House to refer to it for a moment or two. coming aliveout of the London market. There are no fewer than nine counties They say, “ If you probibit all movement bordering on it. It is also a very narrow of cattle you ought to prohibit butchers gocounty, and a great many farms extending to the London markets and bringing into the adjoining shires. I even know of cattle down by railway.” For that same fields through which the county boundary reason the Northamptonshire orders were line runs, and no man knows exactly where not made so strict as they would otherwise the two counties are actually divided. How have been. Then, I must refer to the next are you to subject a man to different orders, paragraph of the 21st sectionrelating not only to different parts of his “ A licence under this section may be given by own farm, but even to different parts of the the local authority, or by some person duly authosame field ? Consider, too, the expense such rized in writing by such local authority to givo a system will entail upon the farmers of such licence, and such licence shall be in such that county. According to this Bill we authority may think expedient.”

form and subject to such conditions as the local have to publish our Northamptonshire notices in our newspapers, and also in those Now, it seems to me that under this section

the local authorities will be able to do what. of all our bordering counties. In the same way, all these counties have to publish their ever they are empowered to do at the prenotices in our newspapers. People often sent time. The next paragraph is to the want just to go out of the county and in effect that persons having charge of aniagain with their animals, and sometimes mals moved under a licence shall produce they actually will not be able to do so, ex

the same on demand to any constable, cept in accordance with the orders of three policeman, or local officer. different local bodies. Is that, I would ask, vision is made in my Bill, and has been, I an evil which ought to be disregarded believe, in most of the local orders. Then Then, there is another question which I do comes the 22nd section, relating to the not think the Government have fully con- power of local authorities to make prohi. sidered—a question of great importance bitions. That, in fact, merely confers in with regard to the interests of cattle express terms powers which the local auowners. Although the prohibition of the thorities could have exercised even if no movement of cattle may be absolute by the such clause had been inserted. It runs as

follows:order of the magistrates in one district, the movement may be allowed under cer- “Every local authority shall have power by tain conditions under the order of the Order to prohibit altogether or to impose restric

tions or conditions on the introduction into its magistrates of a neighbouring district. The district, and also on the removal from place to effect of such varying and unequal state place with its district, of–1. Animals, or any of things will be this-take the case of two specified description thereof, excepting for a dis

A similar pro

tance not exceeding 200 yards from part to part of | always found that they were disposed to give the same farm; 2. Raw or untanned hides or

me a fair hearing, or to enter into a consiskins, horns, hoofs

, or offal of animals, or of any deration of the views and arguments opposed specified description thereof, except hides, skins, horns, or hoofs imported into the United Kingdom to their own opinions ; and I believe that if from India, Australia, South Africa, or America ; | the right hon. Gentleman fairly put before 3. Hay, straw, litter, or other articles that have the country the reasons which induced bim been used in or about animals.”

to propose a measure which would produce With regard to markets and fairs, the 23rd temporary inconvenience and privation to section says

the inhabitants of large towns, they would, “No market, fair, auction, exhibition, or pub. when they saw it was for their future inlic sale of cattle, shall be held during the time terest, have cheerfully and gladly submitted that this part of the Act is in force, except as to the hardships, they would see that the hereinafter mentioned—that is to say, a market

measure was for their own ultimate good as for the sale of cattle intended for immediate slaughter may be held, with the licence of the well as conducive to the interest of the local authority of the district ; provided, that in agricultural community. I do not think I case of boroughs or burghs containing less than need trouble the House with any remarks 40,000 inhabitants, according to the last census,

on the regulations proposed in the Bill a licence to hold a market in such borough or burgh shall not be valid unless confirmed by the with regard to the movement of cattle local authority of the county in which such bo- within the metropolis, or on the provisions rough or burgh is geographically situate ; or, if relating to the public exposure of diseased it adjoins more than one county, by the local au- animals. Those provisions, I believe, we thority of each of such counties."

have now under the Orders in Council. So, here there is permission given to the I will pass over also the compensation local authorities of little towns to open clause. I will pass on, therefore, to the markets and fairs, but only with the con- 43rd section, which has reference to the sent of the county magistrates ; while cleansing of trucksin large towns the borough authorities

“Every railway, canal, or other company will have sole jurisdiction. Now, what that carries animals for hire within any part of may not this give rise to-this allowing Great Britain shall, after any animals have been county magistrates to come in and control taken out of, and before putting any other animals borough autborities? Was there ever truck, or boat to be properly cleansed, and to be

into, any pen, truck, or boat, cause the said pen, such a bone of contention thrown out in disinfected by a washing of lime-water, or by some the shape of an enactment? I will tell other efficient means. Any company making deyou one thing that will happen. In all fault in so cleansing and disinfecting any pen, the little towns, where the county autho- truck, or boat, shall be liable to a penalty not exrities have control , they will stop the fairs ceeding five pounds in respect of each such pen,

or and markets ; but in all the large towns, On this subject I will read an extract from where the borough authorities think only a letter which I received this morning from of the present and not of the future interest

a gentleman residing in North Wales, near of the meat eaters, markets and fairs will

Holyhead. He saysbe allowed. This will give rise to inequality with regard to trade, for butchers will be day I see cattle trucks in a filthy state. I remon

We at present are free from disease, but every able to go to the large towns to buy, but strate with the railway company, but though they not to the small towns. In this I perceive always promise to clean them, I never see a clean the one idea which seems to have pervaded truck coming into the station.” the minds of the Government--namely, And he goes on to say, “I believe we have fear of the big towns. Now, if this inter- no power to touch them." I maintain, ference of the county authorities is good however, that there ought to be Governfor the small towns it must be equally ment officers whose duty it should be to good for the big towns. The big towns, insist on inspecting the trucks, and comhowever, seem to be the bugbear of the pelling them to be thoroughly and perfectly Government. I have addressed audiences cleansed. Unless, however, you specify a in large towns, and I believe there is no certain space of time during which that subject which the working-classes will not cleansing shall take place, you cannot take into consideration and reason upon clean the trucks, because you cannot catch fairly, if not rightly, if you put the argu- them. It was absolutely necessary to put ments plainly and frankly before them. The a stop to the cattle trucks moving at all political sentiments which I hold are not during a certain time. I have now, I am generally supposed to be acceptable to the happy to say, gone through the clauses of working classes in large towns; but I have the Bill which refer to the movement of

Mr. Hunt

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