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says that it is within the spirit of the Act; | causing notices to be given of the appearance and then, that it goes beyond the strict of any disorder among sheep, cattle, or other
animals." letter of the law. Now, I cannot quite concur with the doctrine laid down by the Then come the words on which the noble noble and learned Lord, that the Order in and learned Lord relies — "and to make Council comes within even the spirit of the any other orders or regulations for the Act, because the law lays down distinctly purpose of giving effect to the provisions of what are the offences it creates, and in what the Act," --not for the purpose of giving manner they are punishable. On the other effect to the "object ” of the Act, but for hand, it is quite true that although the pre- the purpose of giving effect to the proamble refers to sheep alone, the enactments visions of the Act. It enables the
in refer to cattle generally. Now, what are Lords of the Council, by Orders the enactments contained in the Act?
Council, to issue any Orders that may
be necessary for the purpose of enforcing " That in case any sheep or lambs infected with or labouring under the said disorder, or any dis- its provisions. I would humbly submit to order of the like nature, be exposed or offered for the noble and learned Lord that it is a most salo, or be brought or attempted to be brought for extraordinary stretch of the provisions of the purpose of being so exposed or offered for sale, an Act of Parliament to use the powers in any market, fair, or other open or public place which were given for the purpose of enwhere other animals are commonly exposed for sale, then, and in any such case it shall be lawful forcing its provisions to enable you to make for any clerk, or inspector, or other officer of such any order you may think fit for the purpose fair or market, or for any constable or policeman, of giving effect to what you consider the or for any other person authorized by the mayor, object of the Act-namely, to provide or by any two justices of the peace having jurisdiction in the place, or for any person authorized against contagious diseases in cattle. The or appointed by Her Majesty in Council, to seize noble and learned Lord frankly admits that the same, and to report such seizure to the mayor the object, though within the spirit and or any justice of the peace having jurisdiction in intention, did not come within the letter of the place ; and it shall be lawful for such mayor or the Act. Well, a number of farmers have justice either to restore the same, or to cause the same, together with any pens, hurdles, troughs, had their cattle destroyed under the aulitter, hay, straw, or other articles which he may thority of the Government and by the judge likely to have been infected thereby, to be direction of inspectors acting under their forthwith destroyed or otherwise disposed of in orders, but contrary to the law. Now such manner as he shall deem proper, or as may I say that, under these circumstances, any person bringing or attempting to bring any the persons so deprived of their property sheep, lambs, oxen, bulls, cows, calves, or other - I will not use harsh words-have å horned cattle into any such market, fair, or open fair and legitimate claim for compensaor public place as aforesaid, knowing such sheep, tion, and for compensation not to be lambs, or cattle to be infected with or labouring under either of such disorders as aforesaid, shall,
their neighbours and them. upon conviction thereof, forfeit and pay for each selves, but compensation from the Governand every such offence a sum not exceeding £20.” ment on those persons acting under the Now, these are the whole of the offences authority of the Government, who, concontemplated by this Act. The fourth trary to law, deprived them of their proclause is as follows:
perty. Any one of those persons whose “ And for the more effectually preventing the fect right to bring an action of damages
cattle the inspectors destroyed has a perspreading of contagious or infectious disease be it enacted that it shall be lawful for the Lords and against them. I do not complain of the others of Her Majesty's Privy Council, or any two | Government for the steps they have taken or more of them, from time to time, to make such -except in this case, they have rather orders and regulations as to them may seem fallen short of their duty ; but I say that necessary for the purpose of prohibiting or regulating the removal to or from such parts or places in a case where they have undoubtedly as they may designate in such order or orders, of gone beyond what the law allowed, comsheep, cattle, horses, swine, or other animals, or pensation to any person suffering from their of meat, skins, hides, horns, hoofs, or other parts of any animals, or of hay, straw, fodder, or other wrong ought to come from the public funds, articles likely to propagate infection ; and also for and not from their neighbours. Let me the purpose of purifying any yard, stable, outhouse, observe that until the Bill brought in or other place, or any waggons, carts, carriages, yesterday no intimation was given in the or other vebicles; and also for the purpose of slightest degree that any of these persons directing how any animals dying in a diseased would receive compensation from the public state, or any animals, parts of animals, or other things seized under the provisions of this Act, are or from any other source. I rather think to bo disposed of; and also for the purpose of it was intimated to them they need not
The Earl of Derby
expect compensation from any source. But, spectors authorized by the Government, I would much rather look forward to the declare that the owners shall be entitled future than back to what has been rightly to compensation. These three or four or wrongly done. I would much rather simple Resolutions might be passed by the look forward to what can be done best at two Houses together, leaving out of con. the present moment; and I think the sideration for the present all the details of Members of Her Majesty's Government the Bill. In my mind, nothing is more will admit that in this House, and also in doubtful than the provisions as to compenanother place, no indisposition has been sation; but I would suggest to Her Mashown fairly to consider the questions jesty's Government that they should probrought before them. Certainly there has pose a Resolution merely affirming that been no factious spirit-no disposition to owners of cattle slaughtered under these create embarrassment to the Government. circumstances should be entitled to comOn the contrary, all parties have been pensation ; and then pass another Resoludesirous of pushing forward the remedy tion, authorizing Government to pass Orders proposed as fast as possible. But, if I am in Council for giving effect to these Resorightly informed—and I have no means of lutions, such Orders in Council being of no information other than those which all the validity after the 25th of March. If Her public have—the measure proposed is one Majesty's Government will take that course of a very intricate and complicated charac- you may have an effective measure in three ter. There is another Bill—a rival Bill — days. I am quite certain, that with every brought forward by an independent country desire to forward the Bill, there is very Gentleman, and which is also of a some great doubt whether a Bill of such com: what complicated character. But there are plicated provisions can pass the two Houses certain general provisions with regard to in less than three weeks. Well, but these which all parties seem agreed, and there three weeks are of the utmost value, and if are, on the other hand, a variety of minute you could anticipate that by ten days, or details on which the greatest possible dif- even a week, by proceeding by way of Resoference of opinion prevails. Now, I would lutions rather than by Bill, when the object offer a suggestion to Her Majesty's Go is to meet a temporary emergency, which vernment. The emergency is pressing, will last only from this time to the 25th and must terminate towards the end of next of March, you will remove the greatest month ; it is, therefore, essentially neces- possible difficulties, you will save the counsary that the measure should be brought try an enormous sum of money, and take into operation with the least possible delay, the best means in your power of putting I would suggest whether it is not practica an early stop to this most formidable plague. ble, instead of proceeding through all the Of course, it rests with Her Majesty's Godetails of the 'Bill, and through all its vernment to adopt it or not. I only sugstages in both Houses, open as it is to dis- gest that arrangement. As far as I am cussion in various complicated provisions, concerned, if they are disposed to take that to introduce simultaneously in both Houses course, I shall not be too strict in criticizResolutions embodying those points on ing the terms of the Resolutions they may which there is no difference of opinion. bring forward, the great aiın and object Take, for example, the power to prohibit being to give the Government the requisite fairs and markets; the power to prohibit powers of promptly, expeditiously, and, I the moving of stock between this period hope, successfully, dealing with this great and the 25th of March ; the power in cer- calamity. tain circumstances to slaughter diseased EARL GREY: I hope the Government animals, or infected animals the word will be very cautious before they adopt the "infected," I believe, has been interpreted suggestion which has just been thrown out. elsewhere to mean animals brought into It seems to me a very dangerous principle contact with diseased animals, and are, to establislı, even under the pressure of therefore, supposed to be infected with such an emergency as now exists, to legislate disease, it may be quite right to take ab- by Resolutions. I think nothing is more solute power to slaughter them. Pass important than that Parliament should ad. Resolutions prohibiting the transit of cattle here to the ordinary practice of legislating on roads and railways, except fat cattle for on graver matters itself, and there are immediate consumption ; give power to many points connected with the proposed slaughter infected animals, and where they Resolutions which obviously and clearly ex. are slaughtered under the direction of in- ceed the powers of the law. The reason why the Bill is brought forward is that they particularly in the West of England, it find there are powers necessary
which could not be prevented after the end of the the existing Act does not enable the Go- month, without certain relaxations. The vernment to exercise by Order in Council. question then arose, in whose hands should For instance, one of the great faults of the the power of granting these relaxations bo present system is that there is no power of placed ? It was not merely necessary to stopping animals on the road. In my own pass general Resolutions expressing the county parties openly defy the law. [The opinion of Parliament on the more imporEARL of Derby: Why don't you take that tant matters; but every minute detail power ?] It seems to me that it would be should be considered if they desired to pass better that Her Majesty's Government on a measure giving satisfaction to all parties the one side, and independent Members of affected by it. He would suggest whether the two Houses on the other, should show it might not be possible, while the Coman earnest desire to come to an agree- mons were passing the Bill through their ment as to what ought to be done. I House, for their Lordships to appoint a cannot help thinking that by proper com- Select Committee to consider the subject, munications between some of the leading so that they might be ready without loss of agriculturists on the one hand, and Her time to recommend alterations in the meaMajesty's Government on the other, the sure when it should come before theni. principle of the arrangement to be made EARL RUSSELL: I do not think it might be agreed npon; and, that having necessary, after tho explanation given by been done, the case being one which does not my noble and learned Friend the Lord admit of delay or long discussion, the Go-Chancellor, to detain your Lordships on vernment might be allowed to pass their Bill the question of law. It appears to me as rapidly as the forms of the Houses would that the Act of 1848 being for the allow, Parliament taking it very much on purpose of preventing the spread of their judgment and responsibility. I am disease among sheep in the first place, but quite prepared to take that course. I do its provision being made applicable to not think it would be impossible that the cattle also, the regulation which the decision of Parliament should be pronounc- Privy Council made came, in fact, within ed on some of the great leading questions its scope. The order given for slaughter
- for instance, on the point mentioned the ing diseased cattle was necessary to preother evening, whether cattle should go to vent the spread of disease; and within the butcher or the butcher should go to the last fortnight various resolutions have the cattle. Guided by the opinion pro- been passed in different parts of the nounced by Parliament, I do not see why country, recommending the slaughter the Government should not pass a Bill, of such cattle as the one thing needful. such as they bave laid on the table, modi- A good deal of objection was at first fied, if need be, according to the expressed made to the slaughter of these cattle, but opinion of the two Houses, the details after a time, opinion settled down genebeing taken pretty much as a matter of rally as to the measures which ought to confidence in the Government.
be taken. The special question which THE MARQUESS OF BATH said, he the noble Earl opposite has raised, as to thought the Government ought to be careful whether public funds should be employed before adopting the course suggested by his to pay the compensationnoble Friend (the Earl of Derby). A great
THE EARL OF DERBY: Only in respect deal might depend on the details of the to those cases where cattle have been arrangements to be adopted. One point to slaughtered by inspectors without suffiwhich farmers and owners of stock attached cient anthority by Act of Parliament. importance was the question of slaughtering EARL RUSSELL: If the inspectors have cattle, and another point of importance was done anything illegal, no doubt there in whose hands the power to slaughter would be a legal remedy against them. cattle should be placed. He had no hesita. Of course, the Government would not tion to say generally that it would not be allow the inspectors to bear the loss. But satisfactory to the country that that power I do not admit, what my noble Friend should be in the hands of the present in- takes for granted, that the order given spectors. With regard to the movement by the inspectors for the slaughter of of cattle, he believed that that might be these cattle was beyond the authority safely prohibited until the end of this of the Act of Parliament. In fact month ; but in many parts of the country, what tliese inspectors did was to de
stroy a nuisance which would have Council which they were now discussing resulted from allowing these cattle to go power was taken not to slaughter sheep or through the country, and spread lambs, but cattle as well. Now, he wanted the disease. As the diseased cattle were to know how it happened that the Order in actually doing mischief and evil they con- Council took a power which did not appear stituted a nuisance. There is an enact- in the Act. These Orders in Council ment by which certain officers in the City ought not to be called Orders in Council of London are en powered to destroy all at all, for they were not the Orders of the unwholesome fish in the fish market, and Queen in Council, but of certain Lords of as these cattle, being diseased, would the Privy Council. The Queen in Council have spread the infection throughout the had power to exercise a certain authority, country, it was quite right that they should but any authority which the Lords of be slaughtered. The noble Earl (the Council exercised must be derived from Earl of Derby) has made an important some Act of Parliament. The fourth suggestion to the effect that certain Reso- clause of the Act of 1848, which was the • Jutions should be passed by both Houses, only clause which dealt with this matter, and that the Government should be em- gave the Lords of the Privy Council power powered to carry out those Resolutions from time to time to make certain regulaby Order in Council ; but I agree with the tions and orders ; but it seemed that the noble Earl who spoke from the cross. Lords of the Privy Council had transferred bench (Earl Grey), that it would be very these powers to local authorities, though dangerous to take that course. The very nothing could be more distinct that the same question as has been raised to-night legal maxim, delegatus non potest delegare. might be raised with regard to the autho- He should be very glad to receive some rity of those Resolutions; because it would explanation from the Government on the be impossible in those Resolutions to pro- points to which he referred. vide for all the minute details which EARL GRANVILLE said, the Governwould be necessary. It would be better ment had acted in the course which they to accept another suggestion, that all pursued in accordance with the best legal matters most urgent should be taken out advice—that of the Law Officers of the of the Bill of the Government, and Crown. The Orders in Council were, pasged in the ordinary way. If Resolu- under the operation of the Act of Parliations were good for the purpose, I do not ment, prescribed to be passed some in one see why the same Resolutions should not way, some in another, and there could not be put in a Bill which should be brought be the slightest doubt that those to which in and passed in the usual way. I quite the remarks of the noble Earl pointed had agree with the noble Earl in thinking that, been passed in conformity with the law. without distinction of party, yo Lord- [The Earl of Derby: The Lord Chanships will concur in any measure necessary cellor says not.] He appealed to the noblo for preventing the spread of the cattle and learned Lord whether that was not the disease; and I hope that the House will case; but, be that as it might, if the noble pass it soon, as time is of the utmost Earl who had raised these legal questions importauce.
would give notice that he would again bring THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, that them forward, he should be prepared to with regard to the legal part of the ques- give him a distinct answer. tion he must say that after reading the THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he Act of 1848 he was more and more puz- must protest against the assertion that he zled, and he must ask for some further had admitted that the course that had been explanation on one or two points. The taken in reference to the Order in Council Act, as his noble Friend stated, referred was illegal. What he had admitted was in the first instance to disease among sheep, that the Government found themselves in and, in the second place, to disease among great difficulty owing to the loose manner cattle ; and these two subjects appeared in which the Act was worded. The preto be jumbled together in the most extra- amble referred only to sheep; but in the ordinary and confused manner. By the body of the Act there were general words, first clause power was given to justices of which included cattle as well. He had the peace to slaughter any sheep or lambs; also stated that the Act was of a remedial so that their Lordships would perceive that character, and that therefore it must be the power of slaughtering simply related construed with a view to promoting the to sheep and lambs; but, by the Order in object intended to be effected by it. With
respect to the observation of the noble Earl,
THE BANK CHARTER ACT. delegatus non potest delegare, this point had not escaped the notice of the Attorney
QUESTION. General. The Law Officers came to the MR. SAMUELSON asked Mr. Chanconclusion that there had been no delega-cellor of the Exchequer, Whether he intion. The acts authorized to be done were tends, during the present Session, to introauthorized by the Council :—what the jus- duce an Amendment of the Bank Charter tices were to do was to say whether the Act of 1844, enabling the Bank of EngOrders were applicable to particular dis- land to increase its issues against securitricts. He had not the clause before him, ties, beyond the amount to which they and could not therefore analyse or scan its were at present limited by that Act? provisions, but if the noble Earl looked at
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE. the wording he would see that this was so. QUER said, that considering the state and
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY sug- prospects of public business, he was more gested, that the only way of settling the than doubtful whether it would be in the question satisfactorily would be to bring power of the Government, during the prean action either against the Government sent Session, to make any proposal relating or their inspectors, for the slaughter of to the difficult subject of the issue of bank cattle in some particular instance.
notes. As regarded the particular QuesEARL GRANVILLE said, he should like tion put by the hon. Member, if it implied to know what amount of damages would that the Government might have an intenbe obtained under the circumstances. tion of enabling the Bank of England to
House adjourned at a quarter before resume the discretionary system which Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, prevailed prior to the passing of the Act of half past Ten o'clock. 1844, he was bound not to limit his answer
to the present Session ; and he would, therefore, say that the Government would
not be disposed to enable the Bank of EngHOUSE OF COMMONS,
land to resume that system either in the Tuesday, February 13, 1866.
present Session or in any other. MINUTES.]— Select Committee - On Standing
EDUCATION OF CHILDREN IN MANU. Orders, Mr. Hastings Russell added; on Edu- FACTURING TOWNS.—QUESTION.
cation appointed. SUPPLY-considered in Committee. - Resolution
MR. FAWCETT asked the Secretary of to be reported to-morrow.
State for the Home Department, Whether, Public Bills-Resolutions in Committee-Tests viewing the deplorable condition of the
(University of Oxford); Parliamentary Oaths. Ordered— Church Rates Abolition * ; County In- in Sheffield and other towns, it is the in
Children employed in many of the Trades firmaries (Ireland) *; Church Rates Commutation*: Tests (University of Oxford)* ; Juries tention of Her Majesty's Government to
in Criminal Cases *; Parliamentary Oaths. introduce a measure for regulating the First Reading—Church Rates Abolition *; Employment and securing the Education of
County Infirmaries (Ireland)* ; Church those Children.
SIR GEORGE GREY replied, that his ; Parliamentary Oaths * .
hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the
Home Department intended to give notice COMMONS AND OPEN SPACES
on an early day of his intention to ask (METROPOLIS).-QUESTION. leave to introduce a Bill to give effect to MR. DOULTON asked the First Com- some further recommendations, beyond missioner of the Board of Works, If it is those which had already formed the subthe intention of Her Majesty's Government ject of legislation, made by the Commisto introduce, early this Session, a Bill sion on the employment of women and having for its object the preservation of children. Commons and Open Spaces in and around the Metropolis ?
THE SMOKE NUISANCE.-QUESTION. MR. COWPER replied, that it was his SIR ROBERT PEEL asked, Whether intention to propose à Bill on the subject. it is the intention of Her Majesty's GoHe had it in preparation, and he hoped vernment to introduce, during the present that he should be able to introduce it very Session, a measure for the purpose of shortly.
abating nuisances arising from the smoke The Lord Chancellor