by them that they were prepared to give carts. Was not this practice calculated to up very commodious premises at Padding-propagate the disease; and did the Governton for a dead-meat market. At present, ment intend to propose any measure with fish came from the seaboard to Paddington. regard to the distribution of manure in the There it was unpacked, and when the con- metropolis? How was it to be got into the signees had taken out sufficient for the country? He was told that the regulations London supply, the remainder was re- were so unsuited to dairies in London that packed and sent to the various towns in everybody connected with them conspired the kingdom. The same thing might take to set the Orders in Council at defiance. place in regard to dead meat. It might These persons could hardly be blamed, for come up in carcass, and, although the if the disease attacked his dairy what was directors were not vendors of meat, yet the dairyman to do? He could not convert they would make arrangements for its his dairy into a slaughterhouse, and he reception, and, by the aid of the telegraph, could not bury the animals in his dairy, so it might be returned to all the towns on the cows were removed along the road. He the line where it was wanted. The ma- (Mr. Ayrton) was told that the dead cattle nagers of the railways said it was impossible and the live cattle were brought to the same to become acquainted with all the different depository in London, with the concurrence orders made by the thirty or forty local of those charged to stop the disease. He authorities of the boroughs and counties trusted that the Government would have through which the line ran. He should some explanation, so that the large body of not have risen, but that he wished to men- persons interested in the supply of milk in tion a practical matter which might help the metropolis might know their position. to solve a very difficult question. He was glad to think that the London milk had vindicated its character at last, for he heard great complaints of the milk that came from the country. People said it was not the churning it got on the railway, but the quantity of water that was put into it before it was sent off.

› MR. AYRTON said, that if hon. Gentlemen opposite were wise, they were wise after the event. He had no wisdom; and he had risen to ask for some information as to what was proposed to be done relative to the metropolis. The circumstances of the metropolis were very peculiar, and it had, no doubt justly, come in for a large share of condemnation in regard to the propagation of the disease. No doubt the metropolis and the large towns had been the centres and sources of the disease in this country. The manner in which the cattle had been imported was most unsatisfactory. The metropolis had, unfortunately, no municipal institutions strong enough to deal with the circumstances of the case, for the cattle had been brought together under the best conditions for allowing any infected animal to give the disease to the rest. He went to see the cattle on their arrival, and it was surprising to find what was left undone when so little authority would have cured the evil. The place in which the cattle were collected was not paved; and they were wallowing knee-deep in compost, under circumstances most favourable to the diffusion of the disorder. He had not heard the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) say anything of the way in which the Bill proposed to deal with the dairies of London. They obtained much of the food of the cows from the London breweries, but they received other food from the country. This food was brought in carts, and the manure of the cattle was taken back in the same Sir Charles Russell

SIR FITZROY KELLY said, the disposal of manure was undoubtedly a very important question, and he hoped that it would receive the best consideration of the Government. It was not his intention to occupy, upon that occasion, the time of the Committee in arraigning the conduct of the Government further than by making the single observation that he believed it would hardly be denied by any one that if they had called Parliament together three months ago they might have prevented the loss which the country had since sustained of 120,000 head of cattle. He had listened with much attention to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary; and he believed that it referred mainly to three points to which he (Sir FitzRoy Kelly) proposed at that moment to confine his observations. felt convinced that if the Government had adopted the three measures-first, of the destruction of all diseased cattle; secondly, of the isolation of cattle suspected of having been exposed to the infection; and, thirdly, of the absolute, total, and immediate stoppage of the passage of all cattle from one part of Great Britain to another-he felt convinced that if the Government had adopted those measures many months ago,

He

or if they were to adopt them, at the present | land that very strong opinions were intitime, the ravages of the malady would, mated in various quarters that the local within the space of one month, be stayed. authorities should consist of a Board, oneHe did not say, however, that they might half composed of landowners and the other not exempt from the operation of the last half of tenant farmers. of those three measures that part of Scotland north-west of the Caledonian Canal, and also those Welsh counties, in which no traces of the disease existed, provided these counties could be completely isolated. One exception of great importance might be made-namely, that where no disease existed, instead of obliging the butcher to go to a farm to slaughter the animal, there was no reason why, under a licence and certificate, the farmer should not be permitted to send the animal to the butcher to be slaughtered. If the measure should be properly framed and satisfactorily car ried out, he believed that the disease might even now be put an end to within a month. With respect to the duty on policies, he had communicated with the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of the hardship of taking the stamp duty on policies made under the different Cattle Insurance Associations; and he must say that the right hon. Gentleman, with great promptitude and liberality, had consented to the use of the smallest stamp which, under a liberal construction of the statute, the law required the Government to demand, and an intimation was held out that it would be for Parliament to consider whether the small stamp itself might not be dispensed with or the duty returned. With regard to compensation, it appeared to him to be a most inexplicable species of legislation to impose upon the very class of persons who had suffered grievously from the calamity the greater proportion of the tax which was to be levied in order to make good the loss. Unless an exception should be made in favour of those who had sustained losses they would take, in the shape of a rate, a tax out of the pockets of the owners of cattle, who were no more to blame than the consumers of meat for the calamity under which the country was suffering, and he did not see why the nation at large should not make good the loss. He hoped in whatever form the Bill might pass there would be no qualification of those measures which alone could ensure the extinction of the disease.

MR. BANKS STANHOPE said, he preferred the Bill of his hon. Friend the Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt). The radical evil of the Government Bill was that it said "you may" do such and such things. The result would be that if the magistrates at quarter sessions in one county kindly chose to yield to the feeling of a number of farmers, the farmers in the next county might find themselves placed in an unfair position by a different bench of magistrates. As to giving facilities for transmitting live cattle to the markets in London and Manchester a difference would be made between the live-meat market and the dead-meat market, which would cause considerable dissatisfaction. The Government appeared to be trying to put an end to the disease by acting pretty nearly on the same system as that which had been found so thoroughly useless and absurd. He was astonished at one thing which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey). Under his Bill there was to be a new system of extended licence and extended movement for cattle-whether for fat, lean, or store cattle. At present, in Lincolnshire, cattle only meant for slaughter might be sent to the butcher or to the station. The consequence of the system was that instead of isolation there was propagation. Another point on which the Bill of his hon. Friend was superior to that of the Government was, that by prosoviding for a month's cessation of the transit ample time would be given for properly cleansing the trucks, an operation for which the right hon. Baronet's Bill did not give sufficient time. With regard to the introduction of Irish cattle, it had been asked what objection could there be to letting them come into the country provided a sufficient licence was obtained at Liverpool. But on arriving at Liverpool they might meet with other cattle who might communicate the disease to them; and if they travelled two or three hundred miles who was to certify that the cattle on their arrival at their destination were perfectly pure. Last year there was a fair at Peterborough, from which place the disease was spread through Northamptonshire, Huntingdonshire, Lincolnshire, and Bedfordshire, by means of cattle bought at

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he rose not to take part in the general discussion, but simply to explain with respect to Scot

Peterborough, which started pure from proposal, as it is a common practice for Ireland, and pure from Liverpool. [Lord the quarter sessions to appoint committees ROBERT MONTAGU said, he believed that with delegated powers for particular purthe cattle had been to market.] The cattle poses. The hon. and gallant Member for might catch the disease in Liverpool or in Berks (Sir Charles Russell) said I had the railway trucks. At present a strong quoted the practice at quarter sessions fear existed in Ireland lest the drover took against absolute prohibition, and he said the cattle plague back with him, and many that his own county had adopted absoof the people in that country desired to lute prohibition. I believe that hardly have a dead meat traffic. any county has done so; the general course has been to put restrictions on the removal of cattle, and adapt them to the circumstances of each case. He says that in Berkshire absolute prohibition is enforced. That was, I believe, the fact as to the first Order. I am not aware of any other county in which so strict a prohibition is enforced. But shortly after the Order was made at quarter sessions, certain exceptions were found absolutely essential. Various exceptions were made in the second Order

SIR GEORGE GREY: I wish to answer two or three questions which have been put to me during the course of this discussion; and first, as to the local authority in counties, I have to explain what that local authority is. It is intended that the local authority in a county shall be the quarter or general sessions. The hon. Gentleman who put a question on this subject (Mr. Hardy), said that there was a total want of uniformity in the regulations made by the justices in petty sessions. The hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware that I wrote a circular to the chairmen of quarter sessions in October last pointing out the importance of concert, and the desirableness of securing as much uniformity as possible. I do not know whether there is throughout the country generally such a total want of uniformity as the hon. Member supposes; but I may instance, as an example of success in obtaining uniformity of action, the county of Sussex, where uniform regulations had been made by common action amongst the justices of the petty sessions. With this view the quarter sessions were substituted for the petty sessions, throwing the jurisdiction over a wider area and securing greater uniformity. But, said the hon. Gentleman, what are quarter sessions? They consist of a great many gentlemen who come some from one part of the county and some from another, knowing only what is connected with their own districts. Now, that is precisely the rcommendation of the quarter sessions. You secure the agency of a body of gentlemen thoroughly conversant with the agricultural operations of every part of the county. Then as to the formation of committees, it is impossible for large bodies to act in a matter of this kind with the promptitude and decision required; it is therefore proposed that there shall be power of appointing at quarter sessions an executive committee, authorized to associate with them, if they think fit, a certain number of persons qualified as rated occupiers in their respective districts. Nor can there be any objection to the

Mr. Banks Stanhope

SIR CHARLES RUSSELL: Because the disease had been stamped out.

SIR GEORGE GREY: I am glad to hear that; but I am afraid Berkshire is not returned among the counties entirely free from the disease.

SIR CHARLES RUSSELL: It is only with regard to Windsor, which is returned in the other list, and that I thought I had explained.

SIR GEORGE GREY: As to deadmeat markets being substituted for cattle markets, I expressed an opinion the other day that such a change would be desirable; but I believe it will take a considerable time to effect it throughout the country. I do not think it can be done in a week or a month. Whenever it can be done now let it be done at once. It is in the power of the local authorities to prevent the removal of cattle. The hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanhope) seems to be under the impression that by this Bill we are taking away from the local authorities power to keep cattle from coming into districts within their jurisdiction, or to regulate their movements. His mistake must arise from some want of clearness in my statement. appears to think that Irish cattle, for instance, might go into any part of the country; but cattle coming from Ireland will be subject to the same restrictions as all other cattle, and can only go to places open for the sale of cattle with the permission of the local authorities. As to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Suffolk (Sir FitzRoy Kelly), I

He

really thought I had got an antagonist- Ayrton). The district comprised within one who was prepared to advocate for a the area of the Metropolitan Board of general prohibition of removal without any Works has been excepted from the counexceptions whatever. The Bill of the ties of which it forms a part by the Orders hon. Member for North Northamptonshire of Council. Originally, inspectors appoint(Mr. Hunt) contains so many exceptions ed by the Clerk of the Council acted to its general powers that it cannot be throughout the metropolitan police discalled an unconditional measure. My hon. trict, which is of much wider extent, and learned Friend said the evil ought to for the area between the district of the be met by an absolute unconditional and Metropolitan Board of Works and that of immediate prohibition; but as soon as he the metropolitan police is a very large ventured on so large a proposition he began one. Now, the area under the jurisdiction with his exceptions. It was proposed at of the Metropolitan Board of Works alone first in St. James' Hall that the abso- is left to the Privy Council. The licences lute prohibition should be only in respect in the district will be given by the Comof infected districts. That exception missioner of Police. It is necessary for was afterwards struck out; but my purposes of taxation that the organization hon. and learned Friend says that as to of the Board of Works shall be made use applying the Order to places quite free of, and assistance will be given by the from the disease, no man in his senses police in enforcing the regulations. With would think of it. According to my hon. regard to manure, very ample powers are and learned Friend, it ought not to be now given to the authorities, and these applied to places not infected; and then powers will be continued by the Bill; but he goes on with his system of licences, it is quite impossible that the whole of the which would make his plan as conditional manure of London, or that of any other as that of the hon. Member for Northamp- large town, can remain in the town itself tonshire. If there be a difference between without the risk of producing disease. the proposals of hon. Gentlemen opposite The regulations as to manure will be left and the proposal of the Government, it is therefore as they are by the present Orders, this-We think that, instead of including to the local authorities. in the Bill every possible cure and exception, we may trust to the intelligence, good sense, and right feeling of the magistrates; but hon. Gentlemen on the other side have an absolute distrust of the local authorities whose co-operation we think essential. We are willing to give a certain amount of discretion to the local authorities; while the hon. Gentleman opposite thinks it necessary to insert every exception in the Bill, leaving no discretion whatever to the local authorities. By attempting to do what they propose we could scarcely fail to omit some of the necessary exceptions, at the same time that we should be depriving the local authorities of the power of supply ing the omission. When persons have requested that the Government would make rules applicable to the whole country, I have asked them, "What general rule would you suggest?" Invariably the answer has been, "Take the rule we have laid down in our county." But a rule suited to one county may not be suited to another, and hence the difficulty of making any absolute and general regulation. The only other question asked me was that put by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr.

LORD BURGHLEY said, with reference to the powers to be vested in the local authorities, that it was the part of the Government to issue the necessary Orders throughout the country. In reference to one remark which had fallen from the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey), who said that the Government had conceived that the compulsory slaughter of infected animals was the best course to be taken, and that they had given orders to that effect, but the farmers would not consent to it, he wished to observe that many of the individuals appointed as inspectors were not qualified to judge as to whether beasts had the rinderpest or not; moreover, no compensation was offered by the Government for this compulsory slaughter, and of course everybody objected to it. The right hon. Baronet had also said that there could not be found in our ports a sufficient number of slaughterhouses in which to slaughter so large a number of beasts in so short a time. He would remind the House, however, that the rinderpest was not a plague indigenous to this country, but it had been imported from abroad. Every year the extension of railways into those countries where the Steppe murrain is indigenous brings the plague