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by them that they were prepared to give carts. Was not this practice calculated to up very commodious premises at Padding- propagate the disease; and did the Governton for a dead-meat market. At present, ment intend to propose any measure with fislı came from the seaboard to Paddington. regard to the distribution of manure in the There it was unpacked, and when the con- metropolis ? How was it to be got into the signees had taken out sufficient for the country? He was told that the regulations London supply, the remainder was re- were so unsuited to dairies in London that packed and sent to the various towns in everybody connected with them conspired the kingdom. The same thing might take to set the Orders in Council at defiance. place in regard to dead meat. It might These persons could hardly be blamed, for come up in carcass, and, although the if the disease attacked his dairy what was directors were not vendors of meat, yet the dairyman to do? He could not convert they would make arrangements for its his dairy into a slaughterhouse, and he reception, and, by the aid of the telegraph, could not bury the animals in his dairy, so it might be returned to all the towns on the cows were removed along the road. He the line where it was wanted. The ma- (Mr. Ayrton) was told that the dead cattle nagers of the railways said it was impossible and the live cattle were brought to the same to become acquainted with all the different depository in London, with the concurrence orders made by the thirty or forty local of those charged to stop the disease. He authorities of the boroughs and counties trusted that the Government would have through which the line ran. He should some explanation, so that the large body of not have risen, but that he wished to men- persons interested in the supply of milk in tion a practical matter which might help the metropolis might know their position. to solve a very difficult question.

He was glad to think that the London milk MR. AYRTON said, that if hon. Gentle bad vindicated its character at last, for he men opposite were wise, they were wise heard great complaints of the milk that after the event. He had no wisdom; and came from the country. People said it was he had risen to ask for some information as not the churning it got on the railway, but to what was proposed to be done relative to the quantity of water that was put into it the metropolis. The circumstances of the before it was sent off. metropolis were very peculiar, and it had, SIR FITZROY KELLY said, the disno doubt justly, come in for a large share posal of manure was undoubtedly a very of condemnation in regard to the propa- important question, and he hoped that it gation of the disease. No doubt the me- would receive the best consideration of the tropolis and the large towns had been Government. It was not his intention to the centres and sources of the disease in occupy, upon that occasion, the time of the this country.

The manner in which the Committee in arraigning the conduct of cattle had been imported was most unsatis- the Government further than by making factory. The metropolis had, unfortunately, the single observation that he believed it no municipal institutions strong enough to would hardly be denied by any one that deal with the circumstances of the case, for if they had called Parliament together the cattle had been brought together under three months ago they might have prethe best conditions for allowing any infected vented the loss which the country had since animal to give the disease to the rest. He sustained of 120,000 head of cattle. He went to see the cattle on their arrival, and had listened with much attention to the it was surprising to find what was left un- speech of the right hon. Gentleman the done when so little authority would have Home Secretary; and he believed that it cured the evil. The place in which the referred mainly to three points to which cattle were collected was not paved ; and he (Sir FitzRoy Kelly) proposed at that they were wallowing knee-deep in compost

, moment to confine his observations. He under circumstances most favourable to the felt convinced that if the Government had diffusion of the disorder. He had not heard adopted the three measures-first, of the the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) destruction of all diseased cattle ; secondly, say anything of the way in which the Bill of the isolation of cattle suspected of having proposed to deal with the dairies of London. been exposed to the infection ; and, thirdly, They obtained much of the food of the cows of the absolute, total, and immediate stopfrom the London breweries, but they re- page of the passage of all cattle from one ceived other food from the country. This part of Great Britain to another-he felt food was brought in carts, and the manure convinced that if the Government had of the cattle was taken back in the same adopted those measures many mouths ago,

Sir Charles Russell

or if they were to adopt them, at the present and that very strong opinions were intitime, the ravages of the malady would, mated in various quarters that the local within the space of one month, be stayed. authorities should consist of a Board, oneHe did not say, however, that they might half composed of landowners and the other not exempt from the operation of the last half of tenant farmers. of those three measures that part of Scot- MR. BANKS STANHOPE said, he land north-west of the Caledonian Canal, preferred the Bill of his hon, Friend the and also those Welsh counties, in which Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. no traces of the disease existed, provided Hunt). The radical evil of the Governthese counties could be completely isolated. ment Bill was that it said "you may" do One exception of great importance might such and such things. The result would be made-namely, that where no disease be that if the magistrates at quarter ses. existed, instead of obliging the butcher to sions in one county kindly chose to yield go to a farm to slaughter the animal, there to the feeling of a number of farmers, the was no reason why, under a licence and farmers in the next county might find themcertificate, the farmer should not be per- selves placed in an unfair position by a mitted to send the animal to the butcher different bench of magistrates. As to to be slaughtered. If the measure should giving facilities for transmitting live cattle be properly framed and satisfactorily car to the markets in London and Manchester ried out, he believed that the disease a difference would be made between the might even now be put an end to within live-meat market and the dead-ment mara month. With respect to the duty ket, which would cause considerable dison policies, he had communicated with the satisfaction. The Government appeared right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of to be trying to put an end to the disense the Exchequer on the subject of the hard by acting pretty nearly on the same sysship of taking the stamp duty on policies tem as that which had been found so made under the different Cattle Insurance thoroughly useless and abeurd. He was Associations; and he must say that the astonished at one thing which had fallen right hon. Gentleman, with great prompti- from the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George tude and liberality, had consented to the Grey). Uuder his Bill there was to be a use of the smallest stamp which, under new system of extended licence, and ex& liberal construction of the statute, the tended movement for cattle-whether for law required the Government to demand, fat, lean, or store cattle. At present, and an intimation was held out that it in Lincolnshire, cattle only meant for would be for Parliament to consider whe- slaughter might be sent to the butcher or ther the small stamp itself might not be to the station. The consequence of the dispensed with or the duty returned. With system was that instead of isolation there regard to compensation, it appeared to was propagation. Another point on which him to be a most inexplicable species the Bill of his hon. Friend was superior to of legislation to impose upon the very that of the Government was, that by proclass of persons who had suffered 80 viding for a month's cessation of the transit grievously from the calamity the greater ample time would be given for properly proportion of the tax which was to be cleansing the trucks, an operation for levied in order to make good the loss. which the right hon. Baronet's Bill did not Unless an exception should be made in give sufficient time. With regard to the favour of those who had sustained losses introduction of Irish cattle, it had been they would take, in the shape of a rate, a asked what objection could there be to tax out of the pockets of the owners of letting them come into the country procattle, who were no more to blame than vided a sufficient licence was obtained at the consumers of meat for the calamity Liverpool. But on arriving at Liverpool under which the country was suffering, and they might meet with other cattle who he did not see why the nation at large might communicate the disease to them ; should not make good the loss. He hoped and if they travelled two or three hundred in whatever form the Bill might pass there miles who was to certify that the cattle on would be no qualification of those measures their arrival at their destination were per. which alone could ensure the extinction of fectly pure. Last year there was a fair at the disease.

Peterborough, from which place the disTHE LORD ADVOCATE said, he rose eage was sprend through Northamptonshire, not to take part in the general discussion, Huntingdonshire, Lincolnshire, and Bedbut simply to explain with respect to Scot-fordshire, by means of cattle bought at

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Peterborough, which started pure from proposal, as it is a common practice for Ireland, and pure from Liverpool. [Lord the quarter sessions to appoint committees ROBERT Montagu said, he believed that with delegated powers for particular purthe cattle had been to market.] The cattle poses. The hon. and gallant Member for might catch the disease in Liverpool or in Berks (Sir Charles Russell) said I had the railway trucks. At present a strong quoted the practice at quarter sessions fear existed in Ireland lest the drover took against absolute prohibition, and he said the cattle plague back with him, and many that his own county had adopted absoof the people in that country desired to lute prohibition. I believe that hardly have a dead meat traffic.

any county has done so; the general SIR GEORGE GREY: I wish to course has been to put restrictions on the answer two or three questions which have removal of cattle, and adapt them to the been put to me during the course of this circumstances of each case. He says that discussion ; and first, as to the local in Berkshire absolute prohibition is enauthority in counties, I have to explain forced. That was, I believe, the fact as what that local authority is. It is intended to the first Order. I am not aware of any that the local authority in a county shall other county in which so strict a prohibi. be the quarter or general sessions. The tion is enforced. But shortly after the hon. Gentleman who put a question on this Order was made at quarter sessions, cersubject (Mr. Hardy), said that there was a tain exceptions were found absolutely estotal want of uniformity in the regulations sential. Various exceptions were made in made by the justices in petty sessions. The the second Orderhon. Gentleman is no doubt aware that I SIR CHARLES RUSSELL: Because wrote a circular to the chairmen of quarter the disease had been stamped out. sessions in October last pointing out the SIR GEORGE GREY: I am glad to importance of concert, and the desirable hear that ; but I am afraid Berkshire is ness of securing as much uniformity as not returned among the counties entirely possible. I do not know whether there is free from the disease. throughout the country generally such a SIR CHARLES RUSSELL: It is total want of uniformity as the hon. Mem- only with regard to Windsor, which is reber supposes; but I may instance, as an turned in the other list, and that I thought example of success in obtaining uniformity I had explained. of action, the county of Sussex, where uni. Sir GEORGE GREY : As to deadform regulations had been made by com- meat markets being substituted for cattle mon action amongst the justices of the markets, I expressed an opinion the other petty sessions. With this view the quarter day that such a change would be desirable; sessions were substitated for the petty but I believe it will take a considerable sessions, throwing the jurisdiction over a time to effect it throughout the country. wider area and securing greater uniformity. I do not think it can be done in a week But, said the hon. Gentleman, wliat are or a month. Whenever it can be done quarter sessions ? They consist of a great now let it be done at once. It is in the many gentlemen who come some from one power of the local authorities to prevent part of the county and some from another, the removal of cattle. The hon. Member knowing only what is connected with their for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanown districts. Now, that is precisely the hope) seems to be under the impression rcommendation of the quarter sessions. that by this Bill we are taking away from You secure the agency of a body of gen- the local authorities power to keep cattle tlemen thoroughly conversant with the from coming into districts within their agricultural operations of every part of jurisdiction, or to regulate their move. the county. Then as to the formation ments. His mistake must arise from some of committees, it is impossible for large want of clearness in my statement. He bodies to act in a matter of this kind with appears to think that Irislı cattle, for in. the promptitude and decision required ; it stance, might go into any part of the is therefore proposed that there shall be country; but cattle coming from Ireland power of appointing at quarter sessions an will be subject to the same restrictions as executive committee, authorized to asso. all other cattle, and can only go to places ciate with then, if they think fit, a cer- open for the sale of cattle with the pertain number of persons qualified as rated mission of the local authorities. As to occupiers in their respectivo districts. my hon. and learned Friend the Member Nor can there be any objection to the for East Suffolk (Sir FitzRoy Kelly), I

Mr. Banks Stanhope

really thought I had got an antagonist- Ayrton). The district comprised within one who was prepared to advocate for a the area of the Metropolitan Board of general prohibition of removal without any Works has been excepted from the coun. exceptions whatever. The Bill of the ties of which it forms a part by the Orders hon. Meniber for North Northamptonshire of Council

. Originally, inspectors appoint(Mr. Hunt) contains so many exceptions ed by the Clerk of the Council acted to its general powers that it cannot be throughout the metropolitan police discalled an unconditional measure. My hon. trict, which is of much wider extent, and learned Friend said the evil ought to for the area between the district of the be met by an absolute unconditional and Metropolitan Board of Works and that of immediate prohibition; but as soon as he the metropolitan police is a very large ventured on so large a proposition he began one. Now, the area under the jurisdiction with his exceptions. It was proposed at of the Metropolitan Board of Works alone first in St. James' Hall that the abso- is left to the Privy Council. The licences Jute prohibition should be only in respect in the district will be given by the Comof infected districts. That exception missioner of Police. It is necessary for was afterwards struck out ; but my purposes of taxation that the organization hon. and learned Friend says that as to of the Board of Works shall be made use applying the Order to places quite free of, and assistance will be given by the from the disease, no man in his senses police in enforcing the regulations. With would think of it. According to my hon. regard to manure, very ample powers are and learned Friend, it ought not to be now given to the authorities, and these applied to places not infected ; and then powers will be continued by the Bill; but he goes on with his system of licences, it is quite impossible that the whole of the which would make his plan as conditional manure of London, or that of any other as that of the hon. Member for Northamp- large town, can remain in the town itself tonshire. If there be a difference between without the risk of producing disease. the proposals of hon. Gentlemen opposite The regulations as to manure will be left and the proposal of the Government, it is therefore as they are by the present Orders, this-We think that, instead of including to the local authorities. in the Bill every possible cure and excep- LORD BURGHLEY said, with reference tion, we may trust to the intelligence, good to the powers to be vested in the local sense, and right feeling of the magistrates; authorities, that it was the part of the but hon. Gentlemen on the other side have Government to issue the necessary Orders an absolute distrust of the local autho- throughout the country. In reference rities whose co-operation we think essen- to one remark which had fallen from tial. We are willing to give a certain the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey), amount of discretion to the local autho- who said that the Government had conrities ; while the hon. Gentleman oppo- ceived that the compulsory slaughter of site thinks it necessary to insert every infected animals was the best course to be exception in the Bill, leaving no discre- taken, and that they had given orders to tion whatever to the local authorities. that effect, but the farmers would not conBy attempting to do what they propose sent to it, he wished to observe that many we could scarcely fail to omit some of of the individuals appointed as inspectors the necessary exceptions, at the same were not qualified to judge as to whether time that we should be depriving the beasts had the rinderpest or not; moreover, local authorities of the power of supply: no compensation was offered by the Going the omission. When persons have vernment for this compulsory slaughter, requested that the Government would and of course every body objected to it. make rules applicable to the whole coun. The right lion. Baronet bad also said try, I have asked them, “What general that there could not be found in our rule would you suggest ?” Invariably the ports a sufficient number of slaughteranswer has been, “ Take the rule we have houses in which to slaughter so large a laid down in our county.” But a rule number of beasts in so short a time. He suited to one county may not be suited to would remind the House, however, that the another, and hence the difficulty of making rinderpest was not a plague indigenous to any absolute and general regulation. The this country, but it had been imported from only other question asked me was that put abroad. Every year the extension of railby the hon. and learned Gentleman the ways into those countries where the Steppe Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. murrain is indigenous brings the plague nearer and nearer to this kingdom, and amend the Law relating to the granting of the Government ought to take this fact Pensions to persons holding certain offices into their serious consideration. We shall connected with the Administration of Jus. be obliged, sooner or later, to order slaugh- tice. The House was aware with regard terhouses to be erected in those seaport to pensions in general that the great matowns where cattle are imported from fo. jority of them were paid out of the funds reign countries, and he thought the sooner of the Treasury, and were subject to the the Government gave those orders the provisions of the Superannuation Acts. better. The rinderpest may, under Provi. With regard, however, to some Pensions dence, be stamped out for a time, but un- in Chancery, Lunacy, and Bankruptcy, less we take proper precautions at those Parliament had given power to the Lord ports where cattle are landed from abroad, Chancellor of granting them, and of de. we shall never prevent its re-introduction termining their amount, and the circuminto this .

COLONEL BARTTELOT said, that the ed. Now, that was a power which it was Order referred to by the right hon. Baronet not desirable to continue ; indeed, the only the Home Secretary as having been made reason why the power of granting such in Sussex was one for the eastern division pensions had been bestowed on the Lord only. Another and a different Order was Chancellor was that they were paid out of made for the western division. This showed funds under his control. The subject, it that local authorities did not all agree, and would be remembered, excited a good deal that difficulties were sure to arise under a of attention last Session : and it was then permissive Bill. He had hoped that this felt by the Government, that it was equally class of legislation would have gone out desirable for the public, and for the Lord with the last Parliament. During the last Chancellor, that the practical responsibility Parliament they had nothing but permis- and control should be vested in the same de. sive Bills ; but it seemed they were to have partment, which exercised it in other cases, them still. If the right hon. Gentleman The object of the present Bill was to put, as had brought in a Bill of five clauses, in far as was possible, all legal pensions under such a measure he might have embraced the control of the Treasury. Judges of all that was necessary. Though he might the Court of Chancery and the Courts of have caused inconvenience to some per. Common Law, would not come within the sons, he would have stamped out the operation of the Act, which, however, disease. He believed, from the length of would apply to all persons of a lower degree the right hon. Gentleman's speech in holding offices connected with the Adminisintroducing it, that his Bill would consist tration of Justice in those Courts. The of, at least, 100 clauses. It would take a Lord Chancellor would still make the final long time to go through it, and the magis- orders for payment of pensions payable out trates would require a long time to enable of the funds under his control. them to master its details.

Motion agreed to. Sir GEORGE GREY said, that if the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member

Bill to amend the Law relating to the granting

of Pensions and Superannuation Allowances to for West Sussex would draw up a Bill of

persons holding certain offices connected with the five clauses which would contain every administration of justice in England, ordered to provision necessary for the stamping out be brought in by Mr, ATTORNEY GENERAL, Mr. of the cattle plague, the Government CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUBR, and Mr. CHILDERS. would feel much indebted to him.

Bill presented, and read the irst time. [Bill 8.] Resolution agreed to. House resumed.

LABOURING CLASSES' DWELLINGS Resolution reported : - · Bill ordered to be

BILL, brought in by Sir George Grer, Mr. CHANCELLOR

FIRST READING. of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. Baring,

MR. CHILDERS said, he begged to Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 6.]

move for leave to bring in a Bill to enable

the Public Works Loan Commissioners to LEGAL PENSIONS BILL,

make advances towards the erection of

dwellings for the labouring classes in popuLEAVE. FIRST READING.

lous places. He would describe in a few THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, he words the resent state of the law as to rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to facilities for the erection of houses for the

Lord Burghley


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