« AnteriorContinuar »
very much decreased for one thing, and able and intimate friend of his, one of the much future distress prevented. He had Members of the Commission (Mr. Lowe), sanguine hopes that if the Government thought that this explanation was an attack would take the question in hand with upon the Commissioners; but he was sure vigour and
determination, the disease that his right hon. Friend would be glad would be eradicated as it had been from to learn that he had been misinformed in France and Belgium by the respective Go- the observations which he had made with vernments of those countries. He would, reference to the Privy Council. My right in conclusion, press upon the attention of hon. Friend has complained of the Privy the Government the resolutions come to at Council for not having summoned Dr. the meeting yesterday, and say that al- Simonds, while the fact is Dr. Simonds was though he did not desire to see them all the first person we saw upon the subject, embodied in the Government measure ex- and he with good reason declined to act in actly as they stood, yet they were all behalf of the Government.
And with reworthy of the consideration of the Secre- ference to another charge, I have to say tary of State, and he would be glad to see that the Order in Council issued on the the spirit of them imported into his Bill. authority of Lord Palmerston and the noble
LORD WALSINGHAM said, he was and learned Lord upon the Woolsack was very anxious, as a member of the Royal simply an extension to Scotland of the first Agricultural Society, to remind their Lord-Orders issued. Then we were charged with ships that a deputation from the Society not having found out speedily enough whehad waited upon a Member of the Govern-ther the disease was the actual rinderpest ment two months ago, and that the pro- or not. That is not the case. Sufficient posed deputation was not the first. He doubt existed among professional men as said this because he feared that some of to the nature of the disease to render it their Lordships might be led to believe inadvisable to mention the name “ rinderthat the Society had been backward in pest." Accordingly, the word " rinderpressing their views upon the Government. pest” did not occur in the first Order ; As he would have an opportunity of ex. but it was inserted in the second Order pressing his opinion upon the subject when issued on the 11th August. Some comthe deputation waited on the noble Earl, plaint, too, has been made that the aphe would not now say more than that he pointment of the Commission was delayed agreed with the noble Lord who had last unnecessarily ; but the fact is that there addressed the House.
is a great difficulty in appointing a ComEARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I re mission in the dead season of the year, so gret very much to find that some remarks many gentlemen are away from home. The which I thought it necessary to make in re- addresses of some were not known; others ference to the recommendations of the were in Switzerland; and, of course, endCommission have been construed into an less delays from such causes were expeattack upon it. But the idea of attacking rienced. I think that your Lordships will the Commission never entered into my head. agree with me that my noble Friend the On the contrary, I think Her Majesty's Prime Minister is right in asking your Government owe a deep debt of obligation Lordships not to anticipate the measure to the Commissioners. At a time most which is to be introduced on Monday. The inconvenient to themselves they devoted noble Earl opposite alluded to the unani. their energies to a most difficult task, and mous opinion of the House. although they put the Government to some THE EARL OF DERBY: I said there inconvenience in recommending a course was a very general expression of opinion which the Government, from other reasons, on the part of the House. did not think it right to adopt, yet I do EARL GRANVILLE: Yes, and the think the country has been most deeply speeches in the House bore out that imbenefited by their able Report, especially pression ; but I found, in the course of in respect to the immense mass of informa- conversation, that even leading Members on tion which they have analyzed and con- the Opposition side of the House enterdensed, and which they have presented to tained the opinion that there would have Parliament in so clear a form, and he been a very strong opposition to a uniform thought he should have been wanting in Order, and some noble Lords considered respect to the Commissioners and the coun- it absolutely impracticable. I cannot actry if he had not stated why their recom- knowledge that in our conduct we waited mendations had not been followed. A very to be guided by a little rise or fall in public
opinion. We found that we really had not dered desperate by losses to obey the law the power of enforcing arbitrarily upon the in such a manner as to save their neighwhole country measures which could only bours' property from destruction. be carried out by the acquiescence of local THE EARL OF AIRLIE said, he quite. opinion, and this feeling dictated our con- agreed that no measures could have been duct as far as possible. The great advan- effectually enforced if they had not met with tage which an Act of Parliament possesses the concurrence of the local authorities. over an Order in Council is that the pro- In his opinion, instead of stamping out the posals before being accepted are well disc disease they were only spreading the infeccussed, and different opinions upon the tion by sending the butcher to the or, as matter find espression and are read in the effluvium arising from the slaughter of every part of the country. But I earnestly an ox apparently sound, but really dishope the Bill will not be treated as a party eased, must be very dangerous in a homemeasure.
stead. The case of Aberdeenshire bad EARL FORTESCUE said, that from per- been held up as a very bright example of sonal experience, he felt bound to express what should be done to stamp out the his conviction that any attempt to enforce disease. Still, even in that county the stringent uniform orders throughout the cattle traffic, although under restrictions, country would not only have been gene- had never been entirely stopped, sound catrally unpopular, but perfectly unworkable. tle being permitted to travel on the sancThere was in this country no gensdarmerie tion of the committee being obtained. to enforce measures even when sanctioned That sanction, however, was only given by Orders in Council framed under the pro- on the express understanding that the visions of an Act of Parliament, and such cattle so removed were not to return, but measures could not be carried out unless were to be slaughtered at the market. He the people generally concurred in their did not know whether their Lordships were advisability, He knew that in his own aware of the very singular manner in which neighbourhood, Devonshire, he had heard the cattle plague bad again broken out in gravely-entertained propositions of evading Aberdeenshire. From a statement in The even the very limited and certainly not too Times newspaper of that morning it apstringent operation of the notices given by peared that Mr. Hay, the inspector for the a majority of the magistrates in the petty county, had discovered that the disease divisions. There had also been the gross had been communicated by means of a est carelessness in many districts, even on pack-sheet used for wrapping up the car. the part of the farmers themselves, owing cases of beasts slaughtered for the London to the general indisposition to inform and markets. If the statement was correct, enforce the penalties against the neighbour- that was a strong case to prove the danger ing farmers who had evaded the prohibi- of slaughtering at home, and in favour of tions. The state of public opinion would allowing cattle to be removed under certain certainly in October and November not have restrictions. The disease had arrived at sanctioned the introduction of too stringent such a stage that they could only hope to measures ; and he even now doubted whe- free the country from it by slaughtering all ther some latitude ought not to be allowed diseased cattle, and isolating all suspected in any Act of Parliament about to be framed animals until they could get a clean bill of respecting the movement of cattle in dis- health. He was glad to learn that the tricts quite remote from infection. Orders Government were going to introduce a Bill could not enforce themselves, and unless on the subject on Monday night, and he they were generally acceptable to the peo- trusted that they would press it forward ple, there was no machinery in this country as rapidly as possible. which could secure the enforcement of any THE DUKE OF ARGYLL said, the orders. The enforcement of penalties question was whether the Government would pot, he felt convinced, secure obe- were to put a stop to all cattle traffic, or dience to orders unless, partial compensa- were to permit it to take place under tion were made to those whose cattle were certain restrictions. His noble Friend to be slaughtered, as he believed they (Earl Spencer) himself, at the time that ought to be slaughtered. His experience the Report of the Commission was made, of voluntary and mutual insurance associa- was distinctly opposed to an entire stoptions had shown them to be failures, and page of the traffic ; and he was suphe felt convinced that terror alone would ported in that opinion by three distin• be quite insufficient to induce men ren- guished Members of the Commission. His noble Friend was also decidedly against although he was not in the least inclined prohibiting the carriage of cattle on rail. I to blame the Government for not having ways for the supply of large towns ; acted with more decision up to a certain and although he might have changed point, he did think that at a later period, his opinion since, the judgment he came when there had been a very strong and to in the first instance was supported a very universal expression of opinion by a very important minority of the Mem- throughout the country with regard to the bers of the Commission. He saw from necessity for uniformity of action, it was a report in The Times of that day that unfortunate that more stringent regulaat a meeting which was held on Thurs- tions were not adopted by the Government. day, over which a noble Lord present (the Had Goveroment desired to have a general Earl of Lichfield) presided, the represen expression of the feeling of the country tatives of the Agricultural Societies of upon the subject, nothing would have been Edinburgh and Glasgow protested against easier than to have sent circular letters to a resolution being carried probibiting the the chairmen of quarter sessions in Octobringing of live cattle into large cities, ber last, requesting information upon the and that was a circumstance worthy of matter. It was true that no suggestions consideration when Government had to de- had been offered by those bodies ; but it termine whether the large populations of must be recollected that when they asthe kingdom were to be deprived of their sembled in the early part of October tho supply of live meat by railway. That was Royal Commission had just been appointed, a matter which could not be determined by and that it was looked up to with great any resolutions passed at a public meet- confidence by the people, who believed that ing, but was a question for Parliament. any Report issued by that Commission
THE EARL OF LICHFIELD said, that would be acted upon by the Government. at the meeting referred to an amendment It must also be recollected that at that in favour of excepting large cities from the time the public generally throughout the operation of the prohibition was rejected country were not sufficiently well-informed by a large majority. He was much pleased upon the subject either to have given to hear that the views of his noble Friend any recommendations to the Government who had acted on the Royal Commission or to have acted for themselves in the (Earl Spencer) with regard to the necessity matter; and he must say that nothing for the suspension of the cattle traffic had had astonished him more than the difficulty changed since the publication of the Re- there was at one time in persuading the port of the Commission, and he thought farmers of the imminent danger of the that the reasons given by the noble Lord disease. He was, therefore, disposed to for the change in his opinion were per- think that up to a certain time it would fectly satisfactory. He thought that the have been difficult, if not impossible, for noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), in re- the Government to have acted otherwise marking upon the important difference of than they had done. But when the Orders opinion between the majority and the in Council were issued, leaving it open to minority of the members of the Commis- the local authorities in the different counsion, had somewhat exaggerated that ties to act as they thought best for their difference of opinion. As far as he under- local interests, it was to be expected that stood the two Reports, the opinion ex- they would, to a certain extent, be guided pressed in both was in favour of applying by the action taken by the Government in uniform regulations to the whole kingdom, the particular case which came under its whether those measures were to be of the immediate control-namely, the movement stringent character recommended by the of cattle from the ports into the interior majority, or of the milder character re- of the country. Now certainly the action commended by the minority ; and he of the Government in that case was not in thought when he read the Reports that the direction of putting a stop to the traffic, nothing could be stronger than the advice for since the issuing of the Orders in Counthey contained, that whatever regulations cil the movement of cattle from the ports were adopted should be applied uniformly to the interior had been unrestricted, and, throughout the country. It was clear as far as the public were aware, no prethat it was utterly impossible that any re-cautions whatever had been adopted to gulations could have been applied through. prevent the evils likely to arise from such out the country generally without an Or- traffic. It was his earnest hope that the der from Government to that effect; and, strongly-expressed opinion of so many
The Duke of Argyll
practical agriculturists who were present the information recommended to be proat the meeting referred to, coming as they cured in Her Majesty's Speech in reference did from all parts of the kingdom, and to the rights of Voting in the Elections of representing so many agricultural societies Members to serve in Parliament, it will and the most important agricultural in- not be deemed necessary by Her Majesty's terests, would have great weight with the Government to inquire into the causes Government when framing the Bill to be which at present prevent so large a portion laid on the table on Monday next. of the Electors from Voting, and encour
age so large a portion to traffic with the House adjourned at a quarter before Franchise; and whether such an inquiry Eight o'clock, till Monday next, be not necessary previous to the creation Eleven o'clock.
of a Reform Bill ?
Sir GEORGE GREY: I can only say that Her Majesty's Government have called for such information as they think
necessary in order to lay before the House HOUSE OF COMMONS
a Bill on the subject.
VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE: I wish to Friday, February 9, 1866.
ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he will state to the
House the exact nature of the Returns upon MINUTES.)- SELECT COMMITTEE — On Public the subject of the rights of voting, which
are in course of collection by the Governdered— National Debt Acts *; Savings Banks ment? I hope I may ask Her Majesty's and Post Office Savings Banks Acts.
Government to give an answer in detail, First Reading-National Debt Reduction * ;
as my object is to enable hon. Members to Savings Banks and Post Office Savings Banks [6.]
move for supplemental Returns in case those produced by the Government should not be
deemed sufficient. THE CATTLE PLAGUE.
SIR GEORGE GREY: Those Returns POSTPONEMENT OF QUESTION.
will, I hope, be soon completed ; and it is MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE said, the intention of Her Majesty's Governhe should postpone till Monday bis Question ment to lay them before the House when as to the intention of the Government in they shall be completed. It is better, respect to giving compensation for stock, therefore, to wait for the Returns themhides, horns, &c., destroyed or buried by selves, as it would be very difficult to give direction of Cattle Plague Inspectors, act- in detail correct information on the subject ing under Orders in Council.
referred to by the noble Lord. Before Sir GEORGE GREY said, he thanked communicating the Returns to the House his hon. Friend. It would be more con
we wish ourselves to be assured of their venient to postpone the Question till he accuracy. made a general statement as to the inten
VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE: Will the tions of the Government.
right hon. Geotleman lay the circulars on the table ?
SIR GEORGE GREY: It will be better LAW OF HYPOTHEC.-QUESTION.
to lay the Returns, and all the papers conMR. CARNEGIE said, he wished to ask nected with them, on the table at the same the Lord Advocate, Whether it is his in- time. tention to bring in any measure in regard LORD ELCHO: I wish to ask the right to the Law of Hypothec in Scotland ? hon Baronet whether the Returns re
THE LORD ADVOCATE said, it was ferred to by the noble Lord the Member the intention of the Government to intro- for Stamford will be laid on the table beduce a Bill in conformity with the recom-fore the Reform Bill is introduced by the mendation of the Commissioners.
SIR GEORGE GREY: Those Returns
will be laid on the table as soon as they THE REFORM BILL.- QUESTION.
are in a condition to be laid before the Mr. H. BERKELEY said, he would beg House. I am not in a position to say to ask the Secretary of State for the Home when the Reform Bill will be introduced ; Department, Whether, in conjunction with and, therefore, it is impossible for me to say what the interval may be between the COLLECTION OF TAXES.--QUESTION. production of the Returns and the intro- THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEduction of the Bill.
QUER moved that the House at its rising
do adjourn till Monday. He said that, BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.-QUESTION. Committee of Supply not being yet apMR. DARBY GRIFFITHI said, he pointed, it was necessary he should do so
in order to give hon. Members an opwished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is not the notice of the House.
portunity of bringing certain subjects under by accident and inadvertence that, in giving notice lately of intended Motions, by Go.
Moved, That the House at rising do vernment precedence, he fixed one of them adjourn till Monday next. for a Members' ballot night, Tuesday, the MR. CHARLES FORSTER said, he 13th ; and, whether he has any intention wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman of claiming any right on the part of the the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether Government to give such notice for Tues. it is his intention, in the present Session, days, without taking their chance of the to re-introduce the measure which he proballot in common with other Members ?
posed in the Session of 1864, relating to SIR GEORGE GREY said, he could the collection of taxes? There was conassure the hon. Member that he had no siderable grievance, both to taxpayers and intention of claiming any precedence for collectors, under the present system, and the Government on Tuesday nights. He gentlemen were often nominated to the gave his notice without reference to the office of tax collectors when such a nomifact of that particular day being the ballot nation was not in accordance with their day, and it was not until he knew of the social position. In 1864, a measure had hon. Member's notice that he had observed been brought forward with the view of the coincidence. He had communicated providing a remedy, and though the mea. privately with the right hon. Member for sure was not successful, the Chancellor of Droitwich to state that he should be quite the Exchequer had expressed his readiness willing that the right bon. Baronet's and to apply a remedy on an early occasion. hon. Members' notices should take prece- THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEdence of his. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON : QUER: My hon. Friend who has put the Hear, hear ! ]
Question to me is already aware that I take MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, that the same view of the merits of the case as the right hon. Baronet's explanation was he does himself. In my opinion the preperfectly satisfactory.
sent system of assessing and collecting the
Queen's taxes is a most defective one. To LOSS OF THE “LONDON.”-QUESTION,
the local jurisdiction relating to the adjuSIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I wish to dication of the taxes my observation does ask the right hon. Gentleman the President not apply. This, I think, is not only not of the Board of Trade a Question of which inconvenient, but most advantageous and I have not given him notice-namely, essential as an auxiliary to our system of Whether it is true that counsel, who ap- taxation; but as to the assessment and peared on behalf of the relatives of persons collection, I have always held it would be lost in the London, at the inquiry into the most desirable that those functions should melancholy circumstances of the loss of be taken directly into the hands of the that ship, retired from the investigation Queen's Government. The present method on the ground that he was forbidden to is hard upon the taxpayers, and in a large cross-examine witnesses ; and I beg fur- majority of cases upon the persons who ther to ask, whether, if it be true, the discharge the functions of the collection, it right hon. Gentleman is of opinion that being in general a laborious office, of a such an inquiry can be attended with bene- vexatious character, with small remuneraficial results as regards the future safety of tion; the discharge of its duties, which is Her Majesty's subjects travelling by sea ? compulsory by law, amounting in many
MR. MILNER GIBSON: I have not cases to a serious grievance to those on received any information on the subject whom it is imposed. My hon. Friend has to which the right hon. Baronet refers. likewise alluded to the present state of the I shall, however, make inquiries, and give law in regard to the liability of parishes to the right hon. Baronet a full reply on a re-assessment where the taxes are collected future day.
under the responsibility of officers not apSir George Groy