very much decreased for one thing, and able and intimate friend of his, one of the much future distress prevented. He had Members of the Commission (Mr. Lowe), sanguine hopes that if the Government thought that this explanation was an attack would take the question in hand with upon the Commissioners; but he was sure vigour and determination, the disease that his right hon. Friend would be glad would be eradicated as it had been from to learn that he had been misinformed in France and Belgium by the respective Go- the observations which he had made with vernments of those countries. He would, reference to the Privy Council. My right in conclusion, press upon the attention of hon. Friend has complained of the Privy the Government the resolutions come to at Council for not having summoned Dr. the meeting yesterday, and say that al- Simonds, while the fact is Dr. Simonds was though he did not desire to see them all the first person we saw upon the subject, embodied in the Government measure ex- and he with good reason declined to act in actly as they stood, yet they were all behalf of the Government. And with reworthy of the consideration of the Secre- ference to another charge, I have to say tary of State, and he would be glad to see that the Order in Council issued on the the spirit of them imported into his Bill. authority of Lord Palmerston and the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack was simply an extension to Scotland of the first Orders issued. Then we were charged with not having found out speedily enough whether the disease was the actual rinderpest or not. That is not the case. Sufficient doubt existed among professional men as to the nature of the disease to render it inadvisable to mention the name "rinderpest." Accordingly, the word "rinderpest" did not occur in the first Order; but it was inserted in the second Order issued on the 11th August. Some complaint, too, has been made that the appointment of the Commission was delayed unnecessarily; but the fact is that there is a great difficulty in appointing a Commission in the dead season of the year, so many gentlemen are away from home. The addresses of some were not known; others were in Switzerland; and, of course, endless delays from such causes were experienced. I think that your Lordships will agree with me that my noble Friend the Prime Minister is right in asking your Lordships not to anticipate the measure which is to be introduced on Monday. The noble Earl opposite alluded to the unanimous opinion of the House. LORD WALSINGHAM said, he was very anxious, as a member of the Royal Agricultural Society, to remind their Lordships that a deputation from the Society had waited upon a Member of the Government two months ago, and that the proposed deputation was not the first. He said this because he feared that some of their Lordships might be led to believe that the Society had been backward in pressing their views upon the Government. As he would have an opportunity of expressing his opinion upon the subject when the deputation waited on the noble Earl, he would not now say more than that he agreed with the noble Lord who had last addressed the House. EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I regret very much to find that some remarks which I thought it necessary to make in reference to the recommendations of the Commission have been construed into an attack upon it. But the idea of attacking the Commission never entered into my head. On the contrary, I think Her Majesty's Government owe a deep debt of obligation to the Commissioners. At a time most inconvenient to themselves they devoted their energies to a most difficult task, and although they put the Government to some inconvenience in recommending a course which the Government, from other reasons, did not think it right to adopt, yet I do think the country has been most deeply benefited by their able Report, especially in respect to the immense mass of information which they have analyzed and condensed, and which they have presented to Parliament in so clear a form, and he thought he should have been wanting in respect to the Commissioners and the country if he had not stated why their recommendations had not been followed. A very Earl Spencer THE EARL OF DERBY: I said there was a very general expression of opinion on the part of the House. EARL GRANVILLE: Yes, and the speeches in the House bore out that impression; but I found, in the course of conversation, that even leading Members on the Opposition side of the House entertained the opinion that there would have been a very strong opposition to a uniform Order, and some noble Lords considered it absolutely impracticable. I cannot acknowledge that in our conduct we waited to be guided by a little rise or fall in public opinion. We found that we really had not the power of enforcing arbitrarily upon the whole country measures which could only be carried out by the acquiescence of local opinion, and this feeling dictated our conduct as far as possible. The great advantage which an Act of Parliament possesses over an Order in Council is that the proposals before being accepted are well discussed, and different opinions upon the matter find expression and are read in every part of the country. But I earnestly hope the Bill will not be treated as a party measure. dered desperate by losses to obey the law in such a manner as to save their neighbours' property from destruction. THE EARL OF AIRLIE said, he quite agreed that no measures could have been effectually enforced if they had not met with the concurrence of the local authorities. In his opinion, instead of stamping out the disease they were only spreading the infection by sending the butcher to the ox, as the effluvium arising from the slaughter of an ox apparently sound, but really diseased, must be very dangerous in a homestead. The case of Aberdeenshire had been held up as a very bright example of what should be done to stamp out the disease. Still, even in that county the cattle traffic, although under restrictions, had never been entirely stopped, sound cattle being permitted to travel on the sanetion of the committee being obtained. That sanction, however, was only given on the express understanding that the cattle so removed were not to return, but were to be slaughtered at the market. He did not know whether their Lordships were aware of the very singular manner in which the cattle plague had again broken out in Aberdeenshire. From a statement in The Times newspaper of that morning it appeared that Mr. Hay, the inspector for the county, had discovered that the disease had been communicated by means of a pack-sheet used for wrapping up the carcases of beasts slaughtered for the London markets. If the statement was correct, that was a strong case to prove the danger of slaughtering at home, and in favour of allowing cattle to be removed under certain restrictions. The disease had arrived at such a stage that they could only hope to free the country from it by slaughtering all diseased cattle, and isolating all suspected animals until they could get a clean bill of health. He was glad to learn that the Government were going to introduce a Bill on the subject on Monday night, and he trusted that they would press it forward as rapidly as possible. EARL FORTESCUE said, that from personal experience, he felt bound to express his conviction that any attempt to enforce stringent uniform orders throughout the country would not only have been generally unpopular, but perfectly unworkable. There was in this country no gensdarmerie to enforce measures even when sanctioned by Orders in Council framed under the provisions of an Act of Parliament, and such measures could not be carried out unless the people generally concurred in their advisability. He knew that in his own neighbourhood, Devonshire, he had heard gravely-entertained propositions of evading even the very limited and certainly not too stringent operation of the notices given by a majority of the magistrates in the petty divisions. There had also been the gross est carelessness in many districts, even on the part of the farmers themselves, owing to the general indisposition to inform and enforce the penalties against the neighbouring farmers who had evaded the prohibitions. The state of public opinion would certainly in October and November not have sanctioned the introduction of too stringent measures; and he even now doubted whether some latitude ought not to be allowed in any Act of Parliament about to be framed respecting the movement of cattle in districts quite remote from infection. Orders could not enforce themselves, and unless they were generally acceptable to the people, there was no machinery in this country which could secure the enforcement of any THE DUKE OF ARGYLL said, the orders. The enforcement of penalties question was whether the Government would not, he felt convinced, secure obe- were to put a stop to all cattle traffic, or dience to orders unless partial compensa- were to permit it to take place under tion were made to those whose cattle were certain restrictions. His noble Friend to be slaughtered, as he believed they (Earl Spencer) himself, at the time that ought to be slaughtered. His experience the Report of the Commission was made, of voluntary and mutual insurance associa- was distinctly opposed to an entire stoptions had shown them to be failures, and page of the traffic; and he was suphe felt convinced that terror alone would ported in that opinion by three distinbe quite insufficient to induce men ren-guished Members of the Commission. His noble Friend was also decidedly against although he was not in the least inclined prohibiting the carriage of cattle on rail- to blame the Government for not having ways for the supply of large towns; acted with more decision up to a certain and although he might have changed point, he did think that at a later period, his opinion since, the judgment he came when there had been a very strong and to in the first instance was supported a very universal expression of opinion by a very important minority of the Mem- throughout the country with regard to the bers of the Commission. He saw from necessity for uniformity of action, it was a report in The Times of that day that unfortunate that more stringent regulaat a meeting which was held on Thurs- tions were not adopted by the Government. day, over which a noble Lord present (the Had Government desired to have a general Earl of Lichfield) presided, the represen- expression of the feeling of the country tatives of the Agricultural Societies of upon the subject, nothing would have been Edinburgh and Glasgow protested against easier than to have sent circular letters to a resolution being carried prohibiting the the chairmen of quarter sessions in Octobringing of live cattle into large cities, ber last, requesting information upon the and that was a circumstance worthy of matter. It was true that no suggestions consideration when Government had to de- had been offered by those bodies; but it termine whether the large populations of must be recollected that when they asthe kingdom were to be deprived of their sembled in the early part of October the supply of live meat by railway. That was Royal Commission had just been appointed, a matter which could not be determined by and that it was looked up to with great any resolutions passed at a public meet- confidence by the people, who believed that ing, but was a question for Parliament. any Report issued by that Commission would be acted upon by the Government. It must also be recollected that at that time the public generally throughout the country were not sufficiently well-informed upon the subject either to have given any recommendations to the Government or to have acted for themselves in the matter; and he must say that nothing had astonished him more than the difficulty there was at one time in persuading the farmers of the imminent danger of the disease. He was, therefore, disposed to think that up to a certain time it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for the Government to have acted otherwise than they had done. But when the Orders in Council were issued, leaving it open to the local authorities in the different counties to act as they thought best for their local interests, it was to be expected that they would, to a certain extent, be guided by the action taken by the Government in the particular case which came under its immediate control-namely, the movement of cattle from the ports into the interior of the country. Now certainly the action of the Government in that case was not in the direction of putting a stop to the traffic, for since the issuing of the Orders in Council the movement of cattle from the ports to the interior had been unrestricted, and, as far as the public were aware, no precautions whatever had been adopted to prevent the evils likely to arise from such traffic. It was his earnest hope that the strongly-expressed opinion of so many THE EARL OF LICHFIELD said, that at the meeting referred to an amendment in favour of excepting large cities from the operation of the prohibition was rejected by a large majority. He was much pleased to hear that the views of his noble Friend who had acted on the Royal Commission (Earl Spencer) with regard to the necessity for the suspension of the cattle traffic had changed since the publication of the Report of the Commission, and he thought that the reasons given by the noble Lord for the change in his opinion were perfectly satisfactory. He thought that the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), in remarking upon the important difference of opinion between the majority and the minority of the members of the Commission, had somewhat exaggerated that difference of opinion. As far as he understood the two Reports, the opinion expressed in both was in favour of applying uniform regulations to the whole kingdom, whether those measures were to be of the stringent character recommended by the majority, or of the milder character recommended by the minority; and he thought when he read the Reports that nothing could be stronger than the advice they contained, that whatever regulations were adopted should be applied uniformly throughout the country. It was clear that it was utterly impossible that any regulations could have been applied throughout the country generally without an Order from Government to that effect; and, The Duke of Argyll practical agriculturists who were present the information recommended to be proat the meeting referred to, coming as they cured in Her Majesty's Speech in reference did from all parts of the kingdom, and to the rights of Voting in the Elections of representing so many agricultural societies Members to serve in Parliament, it will and the most important agricultural in- not be deemed necessary by Her Majesty's terests, would have great weight with the Government to inquire into the causes Government when framing the Bill to be which at present prevent so large a portion laid on the table on Monday next. of the Electors from Voting, and encourage so large a portion to traffic with the Franchise; and whether such an inquiry be not necessary previous to the creation of a Reform Bill? House adjourned at a quarter before SIR GEORGE GREY: I can only say that Her Majesty's Government have called for such information as they think necessary in order to lay before the House a Bill on the subject. VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE: I wish to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he will state to the House the exact nature of the Returns upon the subject of the rights of voting, which are in course of collection by the Government? I hope I may ask Her Majesty's Government to give an answer in detail, as my object is to enable hon. Members to move for supplemental Returns in case those produced by the Government should not be deemed sufficient. SIR GEORGE GREY: Those Returns will, I hope, be soon completed; and it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to lay them before the House when they shall be completed. It is better, therefore, to wait for the Returns themselves, as it would be very difficult to give in detail correct information on the subject referred to by the noble Lord. Before communicating the Returns to the House we wish ourselves to be assured of their accuracy. VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman lay the circulars on the table? SIR GEORGE GREY: It will be better to lay the Returns, and all the papers connected with them, on the table at the same time. LORD ELCHO: I wish to ask the right hon Baronet whether the Returns referred to by the noble Lord the Member for Stamford will be laid on the table before the Reform Bill is introduced by the Government? SIR GEORGE GREY: Those Returns will be laid on the table as soon as they are in a condition to be laid before the House. I am not in a position to say when the Reform Bill will be introduced; and, therefore, it is impossible for me to say what the interval may be between the production of the Returns and the introduction of the Bill. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.-QUESTION. MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is not by accident and inadvertence that, in giving notice lately of intended Motions, by Government precedence, he fixed one of them for a Members' ballot night, Tuesday, the 13th; and, whether he has any intention of claiming any right on the part of the Government to give such notice for Tuesdays, without taking their chance of the ballot in common with other Members ? COLLECTION OF TAXES. QUESTION. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday. He said that, Committee of Supply not being yet apin order to give hon. Members an oppointed, it was necessary he should do so portunity of bringing certain subjects under the notice of the House. Moved, That the House at rising do adjourn till Monday next. MR. CHARLES FORSTER said, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is his intention, in the present Session, to re-introduce the measure which he proposed in the Session of 1864, relating to SIR GEORGE GREY said, he could the collection of taxes? There was conassure the hon. Member that he had no siderable grievance, both to taxpayers and intention of claiming any precedence for collectors, under the present system, and the Government on Tuesday nights. He gentlemen were often nominated to the gave his notice without reference to the office of tax collectors when such a nomifact of that particular day being the ballot nation was not in accordance with their day, and it was not until he knew of the social position. In 1864, a measure had hon. Member's notice that he had observed been brought forward with the view of the coincidence. He had communicated providing a remedy, and though the meaprivately with the right hon. Member for sure was not successful, the Chancellor of Droitwich to state that he should be quite the Exchequer had expressed his readiness willing that the right hon. Baronet's and to apply a remedy on an early occasion. hon. Members' notices should take prece- THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEdence of his. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTONQUER: My hon. Friend who has put the Hear, hear!] MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, that the right hon. Baronet's explanation was perfectly satisfactory. LOSS OF THE "LONDON."-QUESTION. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade a Question of which I have not given him notice-namely, Whether it is true that counsel, who appeared on behalf of the relatives of persous lost in the London, at the inquiry into the melancholy circumstances of the loss of that ship, retired from the investigation on the ground that he was forbidden to cross-examine witnesses; and I beg further to ask, whether, if it be true, the right hon. Gentleman is of opinion that such an inquiry can be attended with beneficial results as regards the future safety of Her Majesty's subjects travelling by sea? MR. MILNER GIBSON: I have not received any information on the subject to which the right hon. Baronet refers. I shall, however, make inquiries, and give the right hon. Baronet a full reply on a future day. Sir George Grey Question to me is already aware that I take the same view of the merits of the case as he does himself. In my opinion the present system of assessing and collecting the Queen's taxes is a most defective one. To the local jurisdiction relating to the adjudication of the taxes my observation does not apply. This, I think, is not only not inconvenient, but most advantageous and essential as an auxiliary to our system of taxation; but as to the assessment and collection, I have always held it would be most desirable that those functions should be taken directly into the hands of the Queen's Government. The present method is hard upon the taxpayers, and in a large majority of cases upon the persons who discharge the functions of the collection, it being in general a laborious office, of a vexatious character, with small remuneration; the discharge of its duties, which is compulsory by law, amounting in many cases to a serious grievance to those on whom it is imposed. My hon. Friend has likewise alluded to the present state of the law in regard to the liability of parishes to re-assessment where the taxes are collected under the responsibility of officers not ap |