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of mutual confidence and affection. But element, which is the living principle of once link them to the State by means of faith in the truth and purity of the religion annual stipend or provision, and from that you profess. There are other panaceas moment, in the eyes of the people, the suggested for the ills of Ireland, such as sacred robes of the minister of the sanc- Royal visits to Ireland, the constant resituary would seem to be degraded into the dence of a Member of the Royal Family in livery of the Government. Forty years that country, and the abolition of the 80ago Dr. Doyle, one of the most eninent called sham Royalty in Dublin. No doubt prelates of the National Church of Ireland, the Irish people would hail with delight the indeed of any church, was examined before presence of their Sovereign among them. Committees of the Lords and Commons, As for the abolition of the Lord Lieutenand that illustrious Bishop gave testimony ancy, that is a question into which I do not on this very subject. He said he was op- care to enter. But none of those things posed to the acceptance of any emolument will cure the ills of Ireland. Discontent, or provision from the State, and that he disaffection, Fenianism if you will, is not to would prefer to receive the slender stipend be put down by such palliatives. Neither which he received from the people whom is it to be put down by the power of Gohe served. He warned the Government of vernment—it is to be put down and banishthe day against the danger of subsidizing ed by the influence of public opinion based the Catholic clergy; for he said that, upon a wide-spread belief, in good laws though it might be possible to attach the and a wise Government. It is said that clergy to the Government, the certain re- Fenianism is of foreign origin, but this I sult of a paid priesthood would be to alien- deny. Its organization may be in America, ate the people from the priests, and more but its spirit is in Ireland. The peasant 50 from the State, all those over wliom who leaves your shores to-day flings his they desired to exercise control ; and that contribution into the Fenian treasury the the very means adopted to increase the moment he lands on the shores of America. influence of the Government over the people Fenianism would have no

power, no would most surely weaken and even destroy strength, no success, unless there was the influence which they desired to have discontent, and cause for discontent in exercised in their favour. The opinions Ireland. So the sooner you look to the expressed by Dr. Doyle, forty years ago, causes of discontent, and remove them, are those of the Catholic bishops, priests, the sooner do you really grapple with and people of this day. It is true there are the spirit of Fenianism in Ireland. I men who fout the authority of the Church, I have an intimate acquaintance with the and who oppose the wise counsels of its state of feeling in the city and county of ministers; but they are few in number, and Cork, and with the neighbouring counties; the influence of the clergy is still powerful and, while I am far from saying that the and salutary in Ireland. Why? Because organization is mighty or powerful, or that they are not stipendiaries of the State. For any vast number are engaged in it, or are niyself, and indeed on the part of Roman sworn members of the body, still, if I am Catholics without exception, I may say that, asked whether there is a sympathy with the whatever our feelings may be with reference Fenian movement, I must confidently assert to the temporalities of the Established that there is scarcely an artizan, a labourer, Church, we have no feeling of hostility to or small farmer, or a small struggling shopProtestants or their Church, in its spiritual keeper who has not a kind of sympathy, sense. We simply desire to do towards our more or less strong, in its favour. Those Protestant brethren as we wish to be done who are largely engaged in trade and comby. Our Church is a voluntary Church, merce, or who are specially injured by the and it flourishes in strength and vigour, effects or influence of the movement, are notwithstanding that it does not receive naturally at the side of the Government; support from the State. Why should not but the mass of the people feel a strong Protestants depend for the vitality of their sympathy with the movement. And this Church on the allegiance and affection of is a just cause for anxiety, and even alarm. its followers as we Catholics do? If a It is stated in the Royal Speech that Church cannot be supported by its own Fenianism is opposed to religion, and is followers, the sooner it falls the better. condemned by all who are interested in its We say to Protestants, remove what is maintenance ; but it is unhappily true that rotten and treacherous from your Church,' amongst those who sympathize with the and thus allow full play to the spiritual movement are many of the best and purest

of the population. ["No, no!”]I know posi- | people, unless both countries are dealt with tively the truth of what I state. Is morality on one common basis of equal justice. Let to be judged of by the cut of a man's coat, the Government and people of this country or the fineness of his cloth ? I speak of deal with Ireland with justice and with men who lead blameless lives, who are good wisdom ; and then it will not be the terrors fathers and good christians. You say there of the law that will crush Fenianism, but is an absence of ordinary crimo in Ireland the all-pervading consciousness that the --that the people are good and moral. people of Ireland are really about to be Then, I say, that good and poor men sym. taken into the bosom of this great Empire, pathize with, though they do not join the and to be dealt with upon the same princimovement; for it is true beyond all doubt ples of justice. that the mass of the people feel that sym

LORD NAAS: No one, I am sure, will pathy. The reason why this is so is find fault with the tone and temper of the obvious. It arises from the idea which too hon. Gentleman who has just addressed fatally prevails in Ireland—that constitu. the House (Mr. Maguire); and if I differ tional agitation and Parliamentary action from some of the conclusions at which he are useless for the redress of admitted has arrived, I trust he will give me credit grievances. I neither sympathize with the for taking as deep an interest as he does movement, nor do I believe that constitu- in the welfare of our common country. I tional means and Parliamentary action will wish, upon this occasion, to confine my obbe without avail ; but I admit and deplore servations—and they shall not be many the existence of this sympathy and of this to one point, and to one poiut only. I belief. Sir, this is a new Parliament, to i wish to impress upon the House my firm which the country has sent 200 new Mem- opinion that those questions which have bers ; and it is necessary that Irish Mem- been referred to by the hon. Member for bers should draw the attention of the Tralee, and by many of the speakers this Government and Parliament to the state of evening, as the foundation of the Fenian their country. I call on the Government movement, are not the real causes of that to send a message of peace to Ireland. But unfortunate state of things which now let it be no hollow truce, but real and per- prevails in Ireland. A new and disastrous manent peace. The Government are strong state of things has arisen. I listened to enough to punish and suppress ; but what the debate with considerable interest; and is necessary is to eradicate the causes that on seeing the Amendment proposed by the lead to these periodical manifestations of hon. Member for Tralee, I thought that he deep-lying discontent. I admit that the might introduce into the debate something law has been fairly administered by the which would go to show that the action Judges, and that, on the part of the Crown, of the Legislature and misgovernment on there was an entire absence of that bitter- the part of this country had been the ness and malignity which disgraced Crown cause of this state of affairs.

But I will prosecutions in past times, not only in Ire. appeal to every Member who has carefully land, but in this country. The blot on attended to the discussion whether that pothe Commission was the jury panel of the sition which was at first broadly laid down county of Cork; but the fault was owing, by the hon. Gentleman was maintained in not to the Crown, but to the indiscretion or argument. I believe that the causes of want of wisdom of an official who did not the Fenian movement, whatever they may fitly appreciate the importance of the occa be, do not lie here, but lie principally in sion, and the responsibility of his office ; a country over which we have no control. but while I object to that panel, I cannot My belief is that this conspiracy did not deny that the juries decided fairly, and in originate in Ireland, and is not maintained accordance with the evidence. The Govern by any causes that exist in Ireland. I ment are strong enough to meet the con- believe it was created and is maintained by spiracy, and to punish the conspirators; influences that arose in a foreign country, but, Sir, I want the Government to destroy and is supported by money which does the trade of the conspirators by putting an not come from the people of Ireland, and end to the causes of disaffection. I wish to by men who are not subjects of Her see the two countries strong and united- Majesty. I have no hesitation in saying strong because of union ; but it is the idlest that the Fenian organization has been deof all mockeries to assert or suppose it pos-vised and carried on in America, and by sible that there can exist a feeling of cordial men who have not the interests of Ireunion with England on the part of the Irish land at heart, but who are, I am sorry

Mr. Maguire

to say, citizens of that great Republic at sweeping her authority from the face which contains within its dominions some of the land in order to establish on its of the bitterest enemies of England. What I ruins a socialistic Republic ? I believe are the Irish grievances mentioned to that questions, so often discussed and night ? Are they new? The hon. Mem- sometimes decided by this House, have ber for Tralee referred to subjects which, nothing whatever to do with Fenianism on many former occasions, were pressed in Ireland. The questions of tenants' upon the notice of this House. The compensation and tenant-right, which condition of the Irish Church has been have been referred to, have been deput forward as a cause of the Penian bated here, and in the most deliberate movement; but how can it be imagined manner, for the last twenty years. Every that the position or existence of the successive Government has attempted to Church in Ireland has any interest for deal with it, but without success; because men who denounce all religions, and who every statesman who has given his attenhare issued the most scurrilous and viru- tion to the subject found it impossible to lent attacks on the ministers of the very reconcile the pretensions of those who profaith which they themselves pretend to fessed to represent the interests of the profess? Or can it be imagined that the tenant with the rights of property and the laws which regulate the tenure of property legitimate interests of the landlord. That in Ireland have any influence on the is the reason why the question has remained leaders of a movement, whose leaders unsettled; and I believe it will long remain emphatically declare that their object is so, at least in the sense só often 'enunciated not to obtain compensation for tenants, or in that House. But if, as the hon. Gentleto improve the condition of the occupiers man has stated, that question really lies at of the soil, but to sweep away the present the root of the evils of Ireland, and is thereowners of landed property and to distri- fore the cause of the Fenian movement, how bute the spoil among the fortunate soldiers comes it that that movement has gained so of the Irish republic? [“Oh!”). Ample little ground among the agricultural popuevidence has been adduced that this is the lation of Ireland ? There is not one conobject of the chiefs of the conspiracy-siderable farmer in the country who has I hold ample proofs in my hand-but that been proved to be connected with it. The evidence has been so often referred to Fenian movement is supported principally by the learned gentlemen who repre- by the inhabitants of towns, who have sented the Crown upon the recent trials, never cultivated a rood of ground in their that I need not take up the time of lives. I therefore repudiate the statethe House by referring to it. It has been ment of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. laid down over and over again by these Maguire) that the tenant question is at the men that their object is not to alter or root of the Fenian movement. I believe re-construct the law of landlord and tenant that no honest or impartial man who has in Ireland, but to distribute the land, not studied Ireland, po foreigner who might among those who now occupied it, but be called upon to express an impartial opiamong those who joined their conspiracy. nion, if he examined the course of ParliaIt may be true—and I own that I, for mentary Government adopted during the one, participate in those views—that there last forty years, would be able to discover are matters connected with the adminis- proof of any indifference to Irish interests, tration of the Executive in Ireland which or any disregard of the wants of the Irish might be improved, as they in some de- people. From my own experience--and I gree prevent Irish interests from receiving have sat in that House now for some contheir due weight in the Councils of the siderable time-I must say I have never United Kingdom. I have long held the known an Irish question to be brought foropinion that Ireland would be benefited if ward-as has been the case that nightthe Chief Minister for that country always with great ability, great earnestness, and had a seat in the Cabinet, and was always great courage—without its receiving fair either in that or the other House of Par- and ample discussion. Argument has been liament, to defend and explain the acts met by argument; and if those who agitated of the Executive. But can it be thought these subjects have not succeeded in perfor a moment that a change like that suading the House to adopt their views, it occupied the minds of these men, or was not because there has been any unwillthat the interests of the Queen's Govern- ingness to consider them. On the contrary, ment was considered by those who aimed the House had always felt Irish questions to be a great difficulty, and has always ap. I tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood, and proached them with an earnest desire to that establishment has been placed on such settle them. Had not the representatives a footing that its endowment is now made of Ireland themselves a voice here? True, a permanent law fo the country. A Poor they are only 105 compared with 500 Eug- Law has been enacted under which the lish and Scotch Members; but is that the property of the country last year was called right way to look at the balance of the upon to pay £750,000, administering re. representation in this House? We know lief to 300,000 persons. Again, in the how equally parties are divided, and how years of famine, when a disaster greater, often a few votes determined the fate of perhaps, than ever came on any country a Government. We have seen many crises befell Ireland, was not money given freely, in which Irish questions were made of the and with a lavish hand, to sustain life out greatest possible importance, and how the of the Imperial exchequer? and although votes of a small portion of the Irish re. through maladministration there was conpresentatives could control the action of siderable waste of these funds, yet at least the Cabinet. We cannot, therefore, draw no indisposition to minister generously to the conclusion that measures for the the sore necessity of Ireland can be fairly good of Ireland will not be passed in charged against this House. Indeed, it this House because the Irish Mem- is, I believe, impossible for any man to bers are powerless by reason of their get up and prove that any proposal shown minority. I admit that there is much in by sound argument to be for the real good the past government of Ireland to regret. of Ireland has been rejected in this AsI believe that for centuries she was the sembly. And, therefore, I cannot reworst governed country in Europe. But, frain from taking this opportunity to proat the same time, I believe that England test against and repudiate the doctrine has now for many years been doing every- that bad laws or misgovernment have thing in her power to atone for past errors produced this treasonable movement. Jusand correct past mistakes. When people tice, I maintain, is fairly administered in talk of English laws standing in the way Ireland, as even these recent trials themof Irish progress, I want to know whether selves suffice to show. The representation there is anything in the nature of Ireland of that country, also, is on as fair a basis so totally different from the nature of Eng- as that of the rest of the United King. land that the same laws should be so poi. dom. I appeal to the Roman Catholic sonous and destructive in the one country Members of this House whether there is and so salutary and beneficial in the other? any legislative body in any first-class The same laws affecting the tenure of European State in which greater freedom landed property exist in Ireland as in of debate is enjoyed ? Ought we not, England, and we have seen under those then, to be careful not to give the least laws a greater amount of agricultural pros- sanction or support to this conspiracy perity developed than had been witnessed by declaring that it has any excuse or in any other country. We have seen the origin in the action of Parliament? I same laws affecting trade and manufactures will not weary the House by attempting in Ireland as in England, and why is not to demonstrate the absurdity and futility the same effect visible in the former as in of the objects of the Fenian conspiracy ; the latter ? may briefly recall what had but I may remind them that there exists been done by Parliament for Ireland dur. in Ireland a large party, comprising men ing the last forty years. Within that period, of all religious denominations, whose those of the people who professed the loyalty and determination to maintain Roman Catholic religion have been ad- the authority of the Queen are second mitted to a full participation in all the to those of no class in the United Kingcivil rights enjoyed by the rest of their dom. I do not exaggerate the character fellow subjects. The other important mea- of these classes when I say that they in. sures which have followed evinced a desire clude every man of property and intellion the part of Parliament to extend every gence in the country, and all the ministers benefit in its power to that country. A of every creed. Nor do I believe it possystem of education has been established sible to find outside of those classes one which gives gratuitous instruction to up- man who really, conscientiously, and openwards of 200,000 children; and the annually has given his adhesion or sympathy to grants amount to no less than £250,000. Fenianism, whose opinion is worth having, Other sums are yearly voted for the educa- / or whose character is in any way entitled

Lord Naas

He repre

to weight with his countrymen. There- own position if, from any miserable feelfore, though this Fenian conspiracy may ing of fear lest he should lose his populabe inconvenient and most disastrous even rity amongst his constituents, he hesitated for a considerable time to the interests of to express his opinion of this unhappy and Ireland, it is manifestly utterly futile and disgraceful Fenian conspiracy. There was absurd. I by no means underrate the not a man of education or position in mischief which such movements as Fe- the country but viewed that movement nianism are calculated to effect. I recol- with horror and reprobation. lect well that when I first entered the sented a county constituency, and it was House of Commons, in 1847, a somewhat their opinion, as well as his own, that it similar state of things existed in Ireland, was calculated to drive back for years and that some Members of the House from the country any chances of prosperity actually did not hesitate openly to profess which were likely to dawn on it, and in their sympathy with the seditious proceed addition to bring ruin upon many innocent ings which were then taking place. There people. It was for men like himself, who is, however, a considerable difference, I had always been Liberal, to come forward at am happy to say, between those proceed. such a crisis and express the horror of the ings and the present, although the spirit whole Liberal party, properly so called, at which prompted both is no doubt the same. this ruinous conspiracy. [Cries of DiI cannot help expressing my regret that, vide ! "] He had reason to know that at the expiration of eighteen years, similar among the names which had been pubmisfortunes have again fallen upon us, lished in connection with the Fenian conand that while progress and civilization spiracy in New York were some of the are going on around us, a portion of men he had seen hanging about the lobHer Majesty's dominions should be the bies of that House, servilely soliciting theatre of a movement which, if suc. the patronage of this very Government cessful even for a moment, would have they now wished to trample upon. Being the effect of throwing Ireland back at unsuccessful they went as adventurers to least fifty years. From the doctrine that America, and there contrived to live in bad government or legislation is the cause luxury by deceiving those multitudes who, of that movement I must express my en. like their countrymen here, who possessed tire dissent. Indeed, my opinion is that the Celtic temperament, were especially those who have taken upon themselves liable to be deceived. (Laughter.] If hon. to propagate that view have incurred a Gentlemen lived in the south and west of grave responsibility, inasmuch as thereby Ireland they would not laugh. With rethey give a colour to this movement, while spect to many questions which had been they are totally unable to substantiate the raised, he would on that occasion-["Dicorrectness of their assertions. I hope we vide!”] If the hon. Gentlemen who intershall hear no more of such doctrines, and rupted him had sat in the House during the I also trust—nay, I am perfectly sure—the last Parliament they would be aware that House will not, because of recent occur during the whole six years he had rarely rences in Ireland, feel indisposed to deal troubled the House ; but in obedience to with Irish questions in the same spirit of those hon. Members who were no doubt impartiality and fairness which it has for overflowing with maiden eloquence, he many years shown on these occasions. The would conclude by merely adding his revarious schemes for the benefit of that quest to that of other hon. Gentlemen that country which have this evening been the hon. Member for Tralee (The O'Dono. suggested are legitimate subjects for the ghue) would, instead of substituting the consideration of Parliament; if good in paragraph he had moved for another, apthemselves, they will, I have no doubt, pend it to the Address. In that case, the be ultimately carried, while, if bad, they hon. Member should have his most hearty will, as it is desirable they should, be re- support. jected.

LORD CLAUD HAMILTON said, he SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN said, be-thought that no one who had read the lieving that House to be the proper Amendment offered that night could find place for expressing his views as a repre- anything in its phraseology calculated to sentative of the people, he would not excite animosity or opposition. At the shrink from declaring his opinions upon moment he heard that an Amendment on the question submitted for their just con- Irish subjects was about to be introduced, sideration. He should be forgetting his he went to the bon. Member (The VOL. CLXXXI. THIRD SERIES.]


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