of the population.["No, no!"] I know posi- | people, unless both countries are dealt with tively the truth of what I state. Is morality on one common basis of equal justice. Let to be judged of by the cut of a man's coat, the Government and people of this country or the fineness of his cloth? I speak of deal with Ireland with justice and with men who lead blameless lives, who are good wisdom; and then it will not be the terrors fathers and good christians. You say there of the law that will crush Fenianism, but is an absence of ordinary crime in Ireland the all-pervading consciousness that the -that the people are good and moral. people of Ireland are really about to be Then, I say, that good and poor men sym- taken into the bosom of this great Empire, pathize with, though they do not join the and to be dealt with upon the same princimovement; for it is true beyond all doubt ples of justice. that the mass of the people feel that sympathy. The reason why this is so is obvious. It arises from the idea which too fatally prevails in Ireland-that constitutional agitation and Parliamentary action are useless for the redress of admitted grievances. I neither sympathize with the movement, nor do I believe that constitutional means and Parliamentary action will be without avail; but I admit and deplore the existence of this sympathy and of this belief. Sir, this is a new Parliament, to which the country has sent 200 new Members; and it is necessary that Irish Members should draw the attention of the Government and Parliament to the state of their country. I call on the Government to send a message of peace to Ireland. But let it be no hollow truce, but real and permanent peace. The Government are strong enough to punish and suppress; but what is necessary is to eradicate the causes that lead to these periodical manifestations of deep-lying discontent. I admit that the law has been fairly administered by the Judges, and that, on the part of the Crown, there was an entire absence of that bitterness and malignity which disgraced Crown prosecutions in past times, not only in Ireland, but in this country. The blot on the Commission was the jury panel of the county of Cork; but the fault was owing, not to the Crown, but to the indiscretion or want of wisdom of an official who did not fitly appreciate the importance of the occasion, and the responsibility of his office but while I object to that panel, I cannot deny that the juries decided fairly, and in accordance with the evidence. The Government are strong enough to meet the conspiracy, and to punish the conspirators; but, Sir, I want the Government to destroy the trade of the conspirators by putting an end to the causes of disaffection. I wish to see the two countries strong and unitedstrong because of union; but it is the idlest of all mockeries to assert or suppose it possible that there can exist a feeling of cordial union with England on the part of the Irish

Mr. Maguire

LORD NAAS: No one, I am sure, will find fault with the tone and temper of the hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House (Mr. Maguire); and if I differ from some of the conclusions at which he has arrived, I trust he will give me credit for taking as deep an interest as he does in the welfare of our common country. I wish, upon this occasion, to confine my observations-and they shall not be manyto one point, and to one point only. I wish to impress upon the House my firm opinion that those questions which have been referred to by the hon. Member for Tralee, and by many of the speakers this evening, as the foundation of the Fenian movement, are not the real causes of that unfortunate state of things which now prevails in Ireland. A new and disastrous state of things has arisen. I listened to the debate with considerable interest; and on seeing the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Tralee, I thought that he might introduce into the debate something which would go to show that the action of the Legislature and misgovernment on the part of this country had been the cause of this state of affairs. But I will appeal to every Member who has carefully attended to the discussion whether that position which was at first broadly laid down by the hon. Gentleman was maintained in argument. I believe that the causes of the Fenian movement, whatever they may be, do not lie here, but lie principally in a country over which we have no control. My belief is that this conspiracy did not originate in Ireland, and is not maintained by any causes that exist in Ireland. I believe it was created and is maintained by influences that arose in a foreign country, and is supported by money which does not come from the people of Ireland, and by men who are not subjects of Her Majesty. I have no hesitation in saying that the Fenian organization has been devised and carried on in America, and by men who have not the interests of Ireland at heart, but who are, I am sorry

to say, citizens of that great Republic | at sweeping her authority from the face. which contains within its dominions some of the land in order to establish on its of the bitterest enemies of England. What ruins a socialistic Republic? I believe are the Irish grievances mentioned to- that questions, so often discussed and night? Are they new? The hon. Mem- sometimes decided by this House, have ber for Tralee referred to subjects which, nothing whatever to do with Fenianism on many former occasions, were pressed in Ireland. The questions of tenants' upon the notice of this House. The compensation and tenant-right, which condition of the Irish Church has been have been referred to, have been deput forward as a cause of the Fenian bated here, and in the most deliberate movement; but how can it be imagined manner, for the last twenty years. Every that the position or existence of the successive Government has attempted to Church in Ireland has any interest for deal with it, but without success; because men who denounce all religions, and who every statesman who has given his attenhave issued the most scurrilous and viru- tion to the subject found it impossible to lent attacks on the ministers of the very reconcile the pretensions of those who profaith which they themselves pretend to fessed to represent the interests of the profess? Or can it be imagined that the tenant with the rights of property and the laws which regulate the tenure of property legitimate interests of the landlord. That in Ireland have any influence on the is the reason why the question has remained leaders of a movement, whose leaders unsettled; and I believe it will long remain emphatically declare that their object is so, at least in the sense so often enunciated not to obtain compensation for tenants, or in that House. But if, as the hon. Gentleto improve the condition of the occupiers man has stated, that question really lies at of the soil, but to sweep away the present the root of the evils of Ireland, and is thereowners of landed property and to distri- fore the cause of the Fenian movement, how bute the spoil among the fortunate soldiers comes it that that movement has gained so of the Irish republic? ["Oh!"] Ample little ground among the agricultural popuevidence has been adduced that this is the lation of Ireland? There is not one conobject of the chiefs of the conspiracy-siderable farmer in the country who has I hold ample proofs in my hand-but that evidence has been so often referred to by the learned gentlemen who represented the Crown upon the recent trials, that I need not take up the time of the House by referring to it. It has been laid down over and over again by these men that their object is not to alter or re-construct the law of landlord and tenant in Ireland, but to distribute the land, not among those who now occupied it, but among those who joined their conspiracy. It may be true-and I own that I, for one, participate in those views-that there are matters connected with the administration of the Executive in Ireland which might be improved, as they in some degree prevent Irish interests from receiving their due weight in the Councils of the United Kingdom. I have long held the opinion that Ireland would be benefited if the Chief Minister for that country always had a seat in the Cabinet, and was always either in that or the other House of Parliament, to defend and explain the acts of the Executive. But can it be thought for a moment that a change like that occupied the minds of these men, or that the interests of the Queen's Government was considered by those who aimed

been proved to be connected with it. The Fenian movement is supported principally by the inhabitants of towns, who have never cultivated a rood of ground in their lives. I therefore repudiate the statement of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Maguire) that the tenant question is at the root of the Fenian movement. I believe that no honest or impartial man who has studied Ireland, no foreigner who might. be called upon to express an impartial opinion, if he examined the course of Parliamentary Government adopted during the last forty years, would be able to discover proof of any indifference to Irish interests, or any disregard of the wants of the Irish people. From my own experience-and I have sat in that House now for some considerable time-I must say I have never known an Irish question to be brought forward-as has been the case that nightwith great ability, great earnestness, and great courage-without its receiving fair and ample discussion. Argument has been met by argument; and if those who agitated these subjects have not succeeded in persuading the House to adopt their views, it was not because there has been any unwillingness to consider them. On the contrary, the House had always felt Irish questions to

be a great difficulty, and has always ap | tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood, and proached them with an earnest desire to that establishment has been placed on such settle them. Had not the representatives a footing that its endowment is now made of Ireland themselves a voice here? True, a permanent law fo the country. A Poor they are only 105 compared with 500 Eug- Law has been enacted under which the lish and Scotch Members; but is that the property of the country last year was called right way to look at the balance of the upon to pay £750,000, administering rerepresentation in this House? We know lief to 300,000 persons. Again, in the how equally parties are divided, and how years of famine, when a disaster greater, often a few votes determined the fate of perhaps, than ever came on any country a Government. We have seen many crises befell Ireland, was not money given freely, in which Irish questions were made of the and with a lavish hand, to sustain life out greatest possible importance, and how the of the Imperial exchequer? and although votes of a small portion of the Irish re- through maladministration there was conpresentatives could control the action of siderable waste of these funds, yet at least the Cabinet. We cannot, therefore, draw no indisposition to minister generously to the conclusion that measures for the the sore necessity of Ireland can be fairly good of Ireland will not be passed in charged against this House. Indeed, it this House because the Irish Mem- is, I believe, impossible for any man to bers are powerless by reason of their get up and prove that any proposal shown minority. I admit that there is much in by sound argument to be for the real good the past government of Ireland to regret. of Ireland has been rejected in this AsI believe that for centuries she was the sembly. And, therefore, I cannot reworst governed country in Europe. But, frain from taking this opportunity to proat the same time, I believe that England test against and repudiate the doctrine has now for many years been doing every- that bad laws or misgovernment have thing in her power to atone for past errors produced this treasonable movement. Jusand correct past mistakes. When people tice, I maintain, is fairly administered in talk of English laws standing in the way Ireland, as even these recent trials themof Irish progress, I want to know whether selves suffice to show. The representation there is anything in the nature of Ireland of that country, also, is on as fair a basis so totally different from the nature of Eng- as that of the rest of the United Kingland that the same laws should be so poi- dom. I appeal to the Roman Catholic sonous and destructive in the one country Members of this House whether there is and so salutary and beneficial in the other? any legislative body in any first-class The same laws affecting the tenure of European State in which greater freedom landed property exist in Ireland as in of debate is enjoyed? Ought we not, England, and we have seen under those then, to be careful not to give the least laws a greater amount of agricultural pros- sanction or support to this conspiracy perity developed than had been witnessed by declaring that it has any excuse or in any other country. We have seen the origin in the action of Parliament? I same laws affecting trade and manufactures will not weary the House by attempting in Ireland as in England, and why is not to demonstrate the absurdity and futility the same effect visible in the former as in of the objects of the Fenian conspiracy; the latter? I may briefly recall what had but I may remind them that there exists been done by Parliament for Ireland dur- in Ireland a large party, comprising men ing the last forty years. Within that period, of all religious denominations, whose those of the people who professed the loyalty and determination to maintain Roman Catholic religion have been ad- the authority of the Queen are second mitted to a full participation in all the to those of no class in the United Kingcivil rights enjoyed by the rest of their dom. I do not exaggerate the character fellow subjects. The other important mea- of these classes when I say that they insures which have followed evinced a desire clude every man of property and intellion the part of Parliament to extend every gence in the country, and all the ministers benefit in its power to that country. A of every creed. Nor do I believe it possystem of education has been established sible to find outside of those classes one which gives gratuitous instruction to up- man who really, conscientiously, and openwards of 200,000 children; and the annually has given his adhesion or sympathy to grants amount to no less than £250,000. Fenianism, whose opinion is worth having, Other sums are yearly voted for the educa- or whose character is in any way entitled

Lord Naas

to weight with his countrymen. There- | own position if, from any miserable feelfore, though this Fenian conspiracy may ing of fear lest he should lose his populabe inconvenient and most disastrous even rity amongst his constituents, he hesitated for a considerable time to the interests of to express his opinion of this unhappy and Ireland, it is manifestly utterly futile and disgraceful Fenian conspiracy. There was absurd. I by no means underrate the not a man of education or position in mischief which such movements as Fe- the country but viewed that movement nianism are calculated to effect. I recol- with horror and reprobation. He reprelect well that when I first entered the sented a county constituency, and it was House of Commons, in 1847, a somewhat their opinion, as well as his own, that it similar state of things existed in Ireland, was calculated to drive back for years and that some Members of the House from the country any chances of prosperity actually did not hesitate openly to profess which were likely to dawn on it, and in their sympathy with the seditious proceed- addition to bring ruin upon many innocent ings which were then taking place. There people. It was for men like himself, who is, however, a considerable difference, I had always been Liberal, to come forward at am happy to say, between those proceed- such a crisis and express the horror of the ings and the present, although the spirit whole Liberal party, properly so called, at which prompted both is no doubt the same. this ruinous conspiracy. Cries of "DiI cannot help expressing my regret that, vide!"] He had reason to know that at the expiration of eighteen years, similar among the names which had been pubmisfortunes have again fallen upon us, lished in connection with the Fenian conand that while progress and civilization spiracy in New York were some of the are going on around us, a portion of men he had seen hanging about the lobHer Majesty's dominions should be the bies of that House, servilely soliciting theatre of a movement which, if suc- the patronage of this very Government cessful even for a moment, would have they now wished to trample upon. Being the effect of throwing Ireland back at unsuccessful they went as adventurers to least fifty years. From the doctrine that America, and there contrived to live in bad government or legislation is the cause luxury by deceiving those multitudes who, of that movement I must express my en- like their countrymen here, who possessed tire dissent. Indeed, my opinion is that the Celtic temperament, were especially those who have taken upon themselves liable to be deceived. [Laughter.] If hon. to propagate that view have incurred a Gentlemen lived in the south and west of grave responsibility, inasmuch as thereby Ireland they would not laugh. With rethey give a colour to this movement, while spect to many questions which had been they are totally unable to substantiate the raised, he would on that occasion-["Dicorrectness of their assertions. I hope we vide!"] If the hon. Gentlemen who intershall hear no more of such doctrines, and rupted him had sat in the House during the I also trust-nay, I am perfectly sure-the last Parliament they would be aware that House will not, because of recent occur- during the whole six years he had rarely rences in Ireland, feel indisposed to deal troubled the House; but in obedience to with Irish questions in the same spirit of those hon. Members who were no doubt impartiality and fairness which it has for overflowing with maiden eloquence, he many years shown on these occasions. The would conclude by merely adding his revarious schemes for the benefit of that quest to that of other hon. Gentlemen that country which have this evening been the hon. Member for Tralee (The O'Donosuggested are legitimate subjects for the ghue) would, instead of substituting the consideration of Parliament; if good in paragraph he had moved for another, apthemselves, they will, I have no doubt, pend it to the Address. In that case, the be ultimately carried, while, if bad, they hon. Member should have his most hearty will, as it is desirable they should, be re- support. jected.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN said, believing that House to be the proper place for expressing his views as a representative of the people, he would not shrink from declaring his opinions upon the question submitted for their just consideration. He should be forgetting his VOL. CLXXXI. [THIRD SERIES.]

LORD CLAUD HAMILTON said, he thought that no one who had read the Amendment offered that night could find anything in its phraseology calculated to excite animosity or opposition. At the moment he heard that an Amendment on Irish subjects was about to be introduced, he went to the hon. Member (The

K