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of being treated as an excuse for men who ranted and sustained by the evidence prohave banded themselves together in a duced upon the trials. The hon. Gentle. daring, though hopeless, attempt to over man the Member for Tralee says there is throw the British rule. With conspirators a dislike in Ireland to English rule, but of this kind the Government can hold no that it might be removed; and I, for one, parley; they cannot negotiate with traitors beartily wish it were in the power of the with arms in their hands. They must Government or of this House to remove it. be dealt with—as I hope they have been Every thoughtful man who has lived in dealt with - according to law, adminis- | Ireland has his own views as to the meatered in a spirit of vigour, but still with sures necessary to put an end to the spread moderation. At the same time, I must of disaffection in that country; and I leave express my conviction that Her Majesty's it to such men to say whether a spirit of Government would be unwise and short- disaffection such as has shown itself in this sighted indeed if they made the exist- conspiracy is to be got rid of by proposals ence of such a conspiracy a reason or such as those of the hon. Member. But an excuse for turning aside from investi- as it would ill become me to canvass any gating any real grievance said to exist of them on the present occasion, I shall which might be removed by constitutional decline to follow the hon. Gentleman the means. I should rather say that the proved Member for Tralee into the statement of existence of such a conspiracy renders it a what he expects at the hands of Her duty incumbent on Her Majesty's Govern- Majesty's Government, such as diverting ment more seriously and anxiously to in- all surplus revenue to Ireland, and of imquire whether there is any cause for this posing a heavy tax upon absentees. I disaffection which it is within their power hope, however, some time hence, to see to remove; because it now behoves the the hon. Gentleman himself rise in his Gorernment of this country to endeavour place to propose a specific measure to that to combine into one body all the loyal and effect, and then I shall be able to discuss well-affected subjects of the kingdom, by it on its merits. I do not now consider showing them that the ear of the Imperial myself at liberty to enter upon those subParliament is not closed to their remon- jects, and I shall therefore content myself strance, and that the Minister who holds with merely stating that I agree with the the reins of power in Ireland, as in Eng. hon. Gentleman that it is the duty of land, is animated with an anxious desire Her Majesty's Government to direct their to promote the interests of that country. attention to the causes of disaffection in Anything which will admit of a practical Ireland, and to express my belief that Her revision, if brought forward, will,'I feel Majesty's Government is animated with sure, receive at the hands of Her Majesty's a sincere desire to do full and complete Government the most careful and most justice to Ireland. I trust the House will deliberate consideration. I am not aware agree with me that the Amendment prothat there are any other matters in the posed by the hon. Gentleman the Member speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Tralee should not be adopted. for Tralee to which I need refer. He has MR. GEORGE said, the paragraph in spoken in the strongest terms of the dis- Her Majesty's Speech with reference to like which exists in Ireland to English Ireland contained three distinct proposirule, and he has spoken in terms of con- tions to which no fair and reasonable man demnation of certain expressions used by could dissent-namely, that a conspiracy the Crown lawyers in the course of the dangerous to the prosperity and the weltrials, and by the Puisne Judges, con- fare of Ireland existed in that country ; demning the conspiracy. But I know no secondly, that every man possessed of prolanguage strong enough or emphatic enough perty in that country was hostile to it; to condemn it. It stands condemned by and lastly, that (at the eleventh hour) ali its own manifestoes and its own acts. The the ordinary constitutional means were put hon. Gentleman the Member for Tralee in force to repress it and put it down. might well have spared the observation, Whilst he admitted that it was a most for I believe the learned Judges and the notorious conspiracy, he could not go so Crown lawyers in the discharge of their far as to say the Government were justified arduous duties made no observations with in postponing their measures until so late respect to the criminals calculated in the a period to put down the threatened rebel. slightest degree to prejudice their case, lion. When they were taken they proved and that everything they did say was war- effectual, and he bore testimony to the able

The Attorney General for Ireland

manner in which the trials had been con- | tried, and which threw a light on the ducted and brought to a conclusion by the conspiracy. Lord Derby's Government learned Judges' who presided and the able had not the benefit of such evidence, but Crown lawyers who had conducted them. notwithstanding that they put a man The admirable temper, able judgment, named Daniel Sullivan upon his trial. He and sound knowledge of law, and the spirit was tried by that able criminal Judge Mr. in which justice had been administered Baron Greene; the trial occupied several in Ireland by Mr. Justice Keogh and Mr. days, and about fifty witnesses were Justice Fitzgerald had been a common topic examined for the Crown; the jury of observation, and the conspirators had ac- could not agree - ten being in favour knowledged that they had experienced fair of a conviction, and two of an acquittal play at the hands of the Law Officers of the they were discharged, and the ComCrown. In many instances, those who had mission adjourned until after the Commisbeen convicted had admitted the justice of sion at Cork was concluded. Sullivan was the severe sentence which had been passed then again put upon his trial, when he upon them. A full knowledge of the con- was found guilty and sentenced to ten spiracy, its nature, and the circumstances years' penal servitude.

Another man, attending it, was possessed by Her Ma. called Jerry O'Donovan, but known as jesty's Government long before they acted Rossa, was put on trial and a bill found in December last. The sales of landed against him at Cork. He had written a property had practically ceased, and Eng. letter, in which he stated that he was lish capitalists had been calling in their of opinion that nothing but cold steel and money for some time past, from the ex- cold lead," as he expressed it, “could settreme insecurity there was arising from tle the question at issue." Yet would it the wide-spread conspiracy. It was known be believed that when the present Governto the Government so long ago as 1848 ment came into office these men were set that a conspiracy of the same description at liberty. The right hon. Gentleman now then existed, and the present Head Centre, the Secretary of State for the Colonies was Mr. Stephens, was well known to have then Secretary for Ireland, and it was for been a coadjutor of Mr. Smith O'Brien. him to tell the House why men of this From 1848 to 1859, when Lord Derby description were allowed to go at large. came into office, nothing was done ; but During the trial of these men at Tralee when he came into power the first step and Cork every effort was made by the his Government took was to bring the par- Government to secure Stephens, but was ties engaged in the then conspiracy to jus- made in vain. He was known under a tice. The Phænix conspiracy of 1859 was number of aliases and many changes of the Fenian conspiracy of to-day. There attire. He then went to America, and was the same connection between them and remained for a considerable time; but he America then as there was now, the only came back years ago, and his first act was difference being that at that time the to establish, by the hands of the men so United States were in the enjoyment of justly convicted of late of treason-felony, peace and tranquillity, and there were no that nest of pestilent sedition, the office of persons to come over and foment and foster The People newspaper in Dublin, and the rebellion. Now we had a portion of the Government were required to give to the disbanded American army, composed of peaceable people of Ireland a reason why Irish men, come back to feed the flame of they allowed this paper to go on so many rebellion in Ireland. His right hon. Friend months unscathed, knowing, as they must the Member for Dublin University (Mr. have done, that it was read in every potWhiteside), who was in 1859 Attorney house in Ireland, and was spreading its General for Ireland, and himself, were sent poison among the whole of the population. down to Tralee and Cork to prosecute cer- Although probably not one single owner of tain persons under the Treason-Felony Act, property in Ireland sanctioned or countethe same Act under which the recent pro- nanced this conspiracy, there were masses secutions had taken place. There were of people who did, and who would, if an the same proofs of overt acts in admi- armed force came into the country, or an nistering oaths, treasonable letters, noc- armed insurrection broke out in the land, turnal meetings, drillings, &c., though lend their assistance, some few from inthey lacked the articles of a treason. clination, many more from intimidation able character which were written by and fear. He, therefore, said that, alsome of the persons who had lately been though the Government were entitled to

great credit for the manner in which the tified, perhaps, after many days. He had prosecutions had lately been conducted, extracts from the speeches delivered by they had a heavy account to settle for the those who should have carefully abstained delay that took place in putting law and from making them, but he would not justice into operation. He had listened trouble the House by reading them. He attentively to the eloquent speech of the would only say that they had emanated hon. Member for Tralee, and he had only from men who were still Members of the one word to say to the Amendment of the Legislature, some of them filling high pohon. Member. His speech contained no sitions, and that it was not surprising efficient suggestion as to the manner of re. | if they did a vast amount of harm. He dressing what he was pleased to call the would not pursue the subject further, as a grievances of Ireland. The hon. Gentle- full opportunity of doing so would be man had indeed mentioned that wonder- afforded when the question of the Irish ful panacea, tenant-right; but when that Church came on for discussion. He should question underwent the most careful con- conclude by expressing his intention to sideration at the hands of the Committee vote against the Amendment. obtained last year by the hon. Member for SIR HENRY BARRON said, he was Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire), and every pro- unable to see that the Amendment of the ject and nostrum that could be brought hon. Member for Tralee gave the slightest forward came to be properly examined, no support or countenance to that miserable plain or satisfactory solution of the alleged conspiracy in Ireland called Fenianism. If land difficulty could be discovered; it was it did, he would be the first man in the found that they must leave the matter to House to vote against it. But, looking the good feeling of the landlords and the carefully at the words of that Amend. tenants, and that the vague and visionary ment, he thought that every Member of theories which some had shadowed out the House, on whicherer side he sat, ought could not be carried into practical effect. to support it. If he needed proof of this The Government would, therefore, do well he found it in the words of the noble Lord to wait and see what practical measures who proposed the Address, and, even still could be proposed, and not rashly hold out stronger, in the words of the hon. Seconder

, hopes which might lead to the idea that who represented one of the largest constithis rebellion was based on grievances of tuencies in Scotland. The noble Lord that kind, or that if these nostrums were had saidadopted to-morrow they would be the “Had not the prosecutions unmistakably shown means of arresting it. With regard to the the loyalty of the class of men who composed the threatened motion respecting the Irish juries? He did not think, if it was the Church, he would only at present say that, spiracy like this

, disapproved as it was by the in;

first, it was the only duty to put down a conputting the religious aspect of the question Auential classes of the community. There could out of view, if they polled the peasantry, be no doubt it resulted from a strong feeling of the farmers, and the labouring men of disaffection among the low classes of Ireland, and Ireland, they would find that no class of if it did there must be some cause for it.” society was more prized or looked up to in In every word of this he (Sir Henry their own districts than the clergy of the Barron) fully concurred. But in doing Established Church; and it would be an so he was far from giving the slightest evil day for that country when that most countenance to the unfortunate men who estimable body of resident gentry were in- had been engaged in the conspiracy. He terfered with. He believed that that sub- could not condemn the rebellion in terms soil of disaffection which had been spoken too strong. He did not know one person of that night had been to a great extent of position in Ireland who did not disap. engendered and increased by the un- prove of these mischievous proceedings, guarded language of persons in high But was this the first conspiracy which had places, who, having in view temporary occurred in Ireland during the last half political objects on the eve of a general century? On the contrary, had there not election or the like, let fall words to which been several rebellions or insurrections in an ignorant people naturally attached Ireland during the last sixty or seventy weight. Thus, although the mischievous years? He, therefore, thought it was the language used might be forgotten as soon duty of the Government to put an end to as it had answered its end by those who such a state of things by a searching inemployed it, still it remained like bad quiry into the causes of this disaffection. seed sown in the popular mind, and fruc- It was impossible to believe that any

Mr. George

.

country could be permanently in a state tion-as a great grievance and a great of disaffection without a cause. He be- insult, from the bishops and archbishops lieved there were many causes of Irish of the Church down to the humblest discontent. How else account for the con- of the people. Another cause of disaffecstant emigration of the Irish people to tion in Ireland was the oath which the foreign countries ? The hon. Gentleman Parliament required to be taken at the who seconded the Address also, in the table by Roman Catholics, and which that course of his speech, said

Parliament had refused to alter so as to " It was surely the duty of the Government to bring it in accordance with their feelings. endeavour to ascertain why this disaffection and This was felt to be a great indignity to discontent existed. They should endeavour to the people of Ireland; and hon. Gentlediscover whether the reason of this feeling was the present condition of the landlord and tenant men opposite lost at least fifteen votes at laws or the laws relating to education, or some

the last election by their conduct on that grave wrong existing in the present relations of occasion in Parliament. Again, of the the religious institutions of the country.” | fifteen Members who formed the Cabinet Now, it was somewhat remarkable that not one was an Irishman. Then look at both the noble Lord and the hon. Gentle- the Irish appointments. The Lord Lieuman—the one representing a large agri- tenant of Ireland was an Englishman. The cultural, and the other a great commercial Secretary for Ireland, up to within a few constituency-should have recommended weeks, was also an Englishman. Then, inquiry into the causes of the discontent the Under Secretary for Ireland was also prevailing in Ireland almost in the very an Englishman. Did hon. Members think words of the hon. Member for Tralee. The that the people of Ireland were so stupid hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Graham) and so ignorant as not to see the insult said it was the duty of that House to as- thus passed on them? He could assure certain the cause of the disaffection exist. the House that they felt it most acutely ; ing in Ireland. Well, the Amendment and that there was not a reflecting man in only went to that extent. The hon. Mem- Ireland who did not regard this state of ber for Glasgow recommended that a things as an insult. Again, almost every searching inquiry should be made into the public office in Ireland was headed by causes of this misconduct, so as to ascer- an Englishman. He was not attacking tain whether it arose from the present individuals, but a principle. The head of condition of the laws regulating the rela. the Excise was an Englishman; the head tions between landlord and tenant, or the of the Customs was an Englishman; the state of education, or some great wrong head of the Irish Board of Works was connected with the religious institutions an Englishman; the head of the Poor Law of the country. Now these were grave Board was an Englishman; even the head causes of discontent lying on the surface of the Irish Constabulary was an Englishof the question. Any one who knew any. man. There was scarcely a department thing of the country and the opinion of of patronage, position, or station in Ireland the people of Ireland must be aware that that was not headed by an Englishman. such was the case. But were there no Would the English tolerate such a state other causes? There were other serious of things in England ? Well, all these causes. He was one of a most influential things united formed an abundant source deputation to the late Prime Minister three of discontent in Ireland. He would obyears ago, asking, not a grant of money, serve, with deference to the illustrious but the grant of a charter to the Roman individuals to whom he was about to alCatholic University of Ireland. A charter lude, that it appeared to the Irish people and a large endowment had been granted that the Royal Family had ignored the to the Protestant University of Dublin, a fact that there was such a part of Her charter and an endowment had been Majesty's dominions as Ireland, and yet granted to a University which had no there was no part of Her Majesty's doparticular religion at all; but the late minions in which she had been more enPrime Minister, in stronger language than thusiastically received when, like angels' he was in the habit of using, plumply visits, few and far between, she visited Tefused to grant a charter to any Roman that country. She might have exclaimed, Catholic University in Ireland. This re- in the words of a great conqueror of old, fusal was regarded by the majority of the “Veni, vidi, vici,” for she had conquered Roman Catholics of Ireland—the Catholics the hearts of the people by her virtues comprising seven-eighths of the popula- and her high character. The reception VOL. CLXXXI. [THIRD SERIES.]

I

on both her visits to Ireland was like that six centuries of misrule had generated in given to Maria Theresa, when she visited Ireland. The result of that long period her Hungarian subjects, and they said, of misgovernment had been within the last “Our blood and lives are at your dis- sixty or seventy years rebellions, insurrec. posal.” Loyalty always had been a cha- tions, conspiracies, and various Coercion racteristic of the Irish people. They had and Arms Acts. Now, that was not the been devoted to their ancient kings - the way to govern any country. It was the O'Briens, the O'Connors, and O'Neills who duty of the Government to probe the evils had reigned in ancient times, and to their of the country, and to apply a remedy to chieftains, the O'Donnels, the O'Farrels, the those evils. Half measures would not do. Desmonds, and the Kildares. Loyalty was If the Government acted in a proper spirit essentially a part of their character, and if towards Ireland they would achieve a they were placed on a perfect equality with greater victory than that of Waterloo, for the people of this country they would ex. they would conquer the people of Ireland, ceed them in devotion and loyalty in every not by the sword, but by kindness and sense of the word. When the English justice. Before sitting down, he wished people thought fit to behead one King, to state the opinion of the highest Catholic what did the Irish people do? They stood authority in Ireland (Dr. Cullen) on the by their lawful Sovereign and supported subject Charles II. against all the power of Eng

" Every man who does not shut his eyes against land, headed by that ruthless conqueror the truth must fully understand that Fenianism Cromwell. They stood with equal fidelity is not indeed a dangerous or powerful, but a to James II., with all his faults, and it foolish and a wicked conspiracy against the existrequired the great military skill of Wil. ing civil authorities, and still more against the di. liam III., Schomberg, and Marlborough, its effects have been most injurious to the coun

vinely constituted authority of the Church of God. to subdue them. It was an enormous try, turning away the minds of the people from mistake to appeal to conspiracies, and in their legitimate occupation to wicked, wild, and surrections, and rebellions in a free country impracticable projects, disturbing the course of like Ireland. They had their representa trade, interrupting business, and giving a pretext tives in Parliament, and were able to members, to the great risk of the peace of the

to the Orange lodges of Ireland to arm all their appeal to that tribunal; he had such faith country. So far from being a Catholic move. in the honesty and intelligence of the ment it has been from its first onset conducted people of England and Scotland that he by leaders known to be infidels and avowed enebelieved they could not appeal in vain. mies of the Catholic Church.” He himself had seen the greatest measures MR. WESTROPP said, that reference of conciliation, reform, and improvement had been made by several hon. Members take place in this country against fearful who had addressed the House before him opponents, great talent, and powerful op- to what, whether correctly or not, were position in and out of this House. He did grievances in the opinion of the lower not forget that the House had granted classes of the people in Ireland. It had Catholic emancipation, reform in Parlia been stated that the Protestant Church in ment, free trade, the abolition of slavery, Ireland was one cause of Fenianism; that the repeal of the Test and Corporation the circumstance of the relations between Acts, and various other important changes; landlord and tenant being in an unsatisand he would say to the people of Ireland, factory state had also conduced to Fenian“ Nil desperandum, persevere in a consti- ism ; and that the result of these two tutional manner; present your complaints misfortunes to Ireland was the great emito the House, and no Minister will dare gration from the country. He would not to refuse you so long as you have right now discuss the Irish Church question and justice on your side." With reference and the landlord and tenant question, as to the Amendment, if he thought it gave no doubt other occasions for so doing any support, directly or indirectly, to the would present themselves ; but with re. Fenian movement he would not give it his gard to the exodus of the population from support. He thought it would have been Ireland, he maintained that, so far from politic on the part of the Government if they being the consequence of grievances, it had put similar words into Her Majesty's resulted from the natural order of things. Speech, and followed them up in a spirit He did not know personally the hon. of conciliation, showing the people of Ire- Member for Westminster (Mr. Stuart Mill), land that they were in earnest, and capa- but he knew he stood in the

presence ble of grappling with the difficulties which distinguished political economist, the Mem

Sir Henry Barron

of a

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