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cable, he should have great satisfaction in proposing it on the part of the Government. And now one word, in the absence of his noble Friend the Secretary for War (the Marquess of Hartington), on the subject upon which his hon. Friend the Member for Stockport had spoken. The remarks of the hon. Member (Mr. Watkin) on the Spencer and Henry repeating rifles had been listened to with great interest by Her Majesty's Government. The accounts which the hon. Member had given of rifles so much approved in the American war, were of a character to draw attention; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was safe in promising, on behalf of the Department of whom his noble Friend (the Marquess of Hartington) was head, that they would give their careful attention to all information which could be collected in regard to arms which seemed so exceedingly formidable.

MR. BAXTER said, that as the Chancellor of the Exchequer desired to know the opinions of Members upon the subject introduced by the hou. Member for St. Andrew's (Mr. Ellice), he had for himself to state his entire concurrence with all that the hon. Member had said. At the same time, he felt very great doubt whether the subject was one of sufficient importance for the appointment of a Select Committee, and was inclined to think that those interested in the subject would be satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman would himself propose such changes in the law as he had indicated in his speech. All that was necessary was to reduce the duty from 12s. to 4s. or 58., to abolish the exemptions, and to transfer the charge from an assessed tax to a license duty.

FISHERIES (IRELAND).-QUESTION. MR. BLAKE said, he wished to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland a Question of which he had given notice, but before putting the Question he wished to make a few remarks. The most opposite beliefs on the subject of trawl fishing existed in Ireland, and this was not to be wondered at, seeing that Mr. Commissioner Barry expressed an opinion on the subject differing from that contained in the Report of the Sea Fisheries Commission. With the great facilities the Commission had of obtaining the most reliable information, one could have little hesitation in relying on their Report, even although it was opposed to the opinion of Mr. Commissioner Barry. The

condition of the Irish Fisheries was at present anything but prosperous. It appeared that in 1830, through the stimulus of bounties and loans, the number of vessels of all classes engaged in the Irish Fisheries was 13,119, and the number of men and boys employed 64,771. In 1836, when the fisheries were in a state of depression, caused through withdrawal of bounties, the number of boats employed was 10,761, and the number of men and boys 54,119. The fisheries soon recovered from this depressed condition, and in 1845 gave employment to 19,883 vessels and 93,073 men and boys. After the famine in 1848 there were only 15,932 vessels, with 70,011 hands, and in 1865 the number had still further decreased, there then being engaged in the Irish fisheries only 9,300 vessels and 40,946 hands. The Commissioners, in their Report, stated in the following words the reasons which had caused this great falling off in the Irish fisheries:

"The great decline in the number of fishermen we believe to be wholly due to the effects of the famine of 1848, and the subsequent emigration. It might have been anticipated that during the famine the fishermen at least would be secure from its ill effects, and would not only have plenty of food themselves, but would be the means of averting starvation from others. But such was not the case; it was found that the people would not live wholly on fish, nor would they out of the small means remaining to them buy fish in preference to meal or potatoes; the fishermen, therefore, suffered not only from the loss of their own crops of potatoes, but from want of market for their fish. They shared to the full extent in the sufferings of the famine, and as most of them befrequently found that men were starving while fish came physically incapable of going to sea, it was were in abundance on the coast. In many parts of Ireland the fishing population has not yet recovered from the depression and ruin caused by the famine; and the subsequent emigration, by taking off the youngest and ablest of the fishermen, and leaving behind the old, the feeble, and the incompetent, has still further operated, not only in reducing the numbers, but in lowering the average condition of those who remain behind." If some of the restrictions which were at present imposed in trawling were removed, he believed that the Irish fisheries would rapidly regain their prosperity. This question was one of Imperial interest. At a period when meat was every day increasing in price, the Government ought to let no opportunity pass of encouraging the fisheries. In 1845, when there was the greatest number both of boats and persons employed, a general impression prevailed that if the fisheries of Ireland were properly developed they would be capable of giving employ ment to three times the number of fisher

men, and that would be equal to ten times the number now employed. In that way, one-tenth instead of one-fiftieth of the population would be engaged in fishing, and there would be a large increase in the supply of food to the English as well as the Irish markets. The necessary stimulus could be given without the smallest cost to the Exchequer. They had only to remove some of the present restrictions, and small companies and individual capitalists would be ready to engage in these enterprizes. At certain seasons it was quite impossible, from the tempestuous nature of the coasts, that boats could proceed to the deep sea fishinggrounds; but if some of the restrictions on trawling were removed, companies would provide a double set of boats, one class for deep-sea fishing, and the other for in-shore fishing, so that when the weather would not permit the men to go out to the deep sea they could employ themselves in bay and coast fishing. Since the Report of the Royal Commissioners had been published several companies had been formed, and were only waiting to hear that the Report would be carried into effect to begin operations. One important branch of the Irish fisheries-the oyster fishery-had greatly declined. Nowhere was there so good an opportunity to prosecute the oyster fisheries as in Ireland, and nowhere was so little done. It was his intention at a later period of the Session, if he had the opportunity, to bring the subject of the Irish fisheries before the House; but he trusted that the necessity for his doing so would be obviated by the Government, taking the matter into its own hands. It was to be hoped that during the Easter recess the Attorney General for Ireland would take into his consideration the propriety of introducing a measure for giving effect in that country to the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners. He begged to ask, Whether it is the intention of the Irish Government to adopt measures, during the present Session, to give effect in Ireland to the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners appointed in 1863 "to inquire into the Sea Fisheries of the United Kingdom," with regard to the removal of restrictions on fishing, and encouraging the culture of Oysters?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAWSON) said, that the Report to which the hon. Member had referred was laid on the table of the House only very recently. The Report was not confined to Ireland, but applied to every part

Mr. Blake

of the United Kingdom. The question was a very large one, and as the recommendations of the Commissioners were of a very important and, as far as his knowledge went, very novel character, they required very serious deliberation. It was hardly to be expected, therefore, that the Irish Government should be prepared to take any measures for giving effect to them. With respect to what the hon. Member had said as to the state of the Irish fisheries, be was not aware of any legal restrictions which prevented Irish capitalists from engaging in the pursuit of fishing. There were facilities for establishing oyster beds in Ireland which did not even yet exist in England. As to there not being so large a proportion of the Irish people employed in fishing as the hon. Member thought there ought to be, that was scarcely a matter which the Government could alter. Many boats went from England to fish on the coast of Ireland; and if the Irish fishermen had boats of the same tonnage and capacity, and furnished with the same implements as were furnished to the English crews, there could be no reason why they should not carry on that branch of industry near their own shores. Much faith was not to be placed in any attempts on the part of the State to stimulate and foster the fisheries of the country by bounties or similar means. They had been already tried without having the desired effect. The matter must be left to the growth of private enterprize; and all that the Go vernment could do was to take care that no legal obstacles, or undue restrictions, should check the development of those pursuits.

ENGINEERS OF THE ROYAL NAVI.

OBSERVATIONS.

SIR EDWARD DERING said, he rose to call the attention of the House to the position of the Engineers of the Royal Navy. Their pay was quite incommensurate with the duties they were called on to discharge. It was hardly possible to overrate the value of their services, because it was upon the ability with which they discharged their duties that the efficiency of that steam fleet which had been so much discussed the last few nights depended. A chief engineer ranked with a lieutenant in the navy, and an inspector of machinery afloat ranked with a post captain. The engineers properly claimed that they

ment. He begged to press upon the noble Lord (Lord Clarence Paget) whether it would not be just to make the period of retirement fifty instead of sixty years of age? It was shown most conclusively by the evidence taken in 1863 that an engineer was as old a man at fifty as most men belonging to other classes of the profession at sixty. He would advert to the case of assistant-surgeons. The noble Lord called attention the other night in moving the Naval Estimates to the state of the medical profession, and mentioned the difficulty of getting medical men for the navy, and said it was necessary to offer some inducement to obtain a sufficient supply. But how stood the case of the assistantsurgeon, who had the same rank as the engineer? After the assistant-surgeon had served ten years he was made surgeon, and he was not restricted to counting only four years, but was entitled to count the whole of the ten years that he had served Her Majesty. The next point was one which could hardly affect the Estimates in any perceptible degree, yet would relieve a great deal of individual hardship. An increase of pay took place every five years. A man, therefore, of nineteen-and-ahalf years' service retiring on half-pay was paid upon fifteen years only instead of upon his full period of service. This might seem a trifling matter, but it seriously affected half-pay officers. The difference between the allowance upon fifteen years' service and that upon twenty years was no less than £45 a year. If there were a proportionate increase for every year of service, or if the period were reduced to three years, little difference would be made in the Estimates, but a great boon would be conferred on those personally interested. The last point which he would press upon the noble Lord was the position of inspectors of machinery afloat. There was, perhaps, no class of officers upon whom greater responsibility rested, for upon their care and vigilance not only the efficiency, but also the very safety of the ship depended, and yet when on full pay they had a mere trifle more than the chief engineers, who were freed from responsibility

should be placed in a position not inferior to those who held corresponding rank in the service. There were several points to which he wished to direct the attention of the House. First, as to the pensions of widows. By the existing regulations the widows of engineers and assistant engineers had no pension whatever, unless it happened that their husbands were killed in action or in the immediate performance of some active duty. This was a great hardship, because only 20 per cent of them ever obtained the rank of chief engineer, which only gave a title to a pension. The great majority of the engineers and assistant engineers were in this position. They might serve Her Majesty fifteen years or more, exposed, perhaps, to the perils of a dangerous climate, or what might be even worse, the atmosphere of the engine room in regions where the atmosphere was at 130 degrees or 140 degrees, and if their constitutions gave way no provision at all was made. By the evidence taken in 1863 it appeared that there was a greater mortality among officers of this class than among the other officers of the service whose duties required them to be upon deck. There was another point respecting which they had cause of complaint. The widows of assistant-surgeons, who had corresponding rank, and of warrant officers, who were of inferior rank, had pensions if their husbands died, but the widows of naval engineers were not similarly provided for. The next point affected the position of chief engineer. When an officer attained the rank of chief engineer, or rather before he received the highest rate of emolument attaching to it, he must show twenty-five years of service. He did not complain of the regulation; it might be a proper one; but he complained that a man after having served Her Majesty perhaps for twelve or fourteen years, when he obtained the rank of chief en gineer, instead of being allowed to count those fourteen years, by the regulation of the service was allowed to count only four years. The special hardship was, that a man entered, perhaps, at the age of twentyone, and, after serving twelve or fourteen years, perhaps became chief engineer at at least, while the inspectors were on the age of thirty-five, but not being able board, and on half-pay they received just to count the fourteen years he had served, the same amount as chief engineers. This but only four, he was obliged to serve was, perhaps, the only instance in the army another twenty-one years before he got to or the navy of officers getting increased the top of the tree; so that by the time he rank without any substantial increase in got to the head of his profession he had pay. The proof that the grievances were reached the age fixed by law for his retire-real was the position which officers of this

class occupied in the merchant navy. In the merchant navy there were 900 registered engineers, and of these only two had joined the Royal Naval Reserve. He would add that within the last year or two many engineers in the Royal Navy of five and six years' standing had left the service and entered the merchant navy; so that the Royal Navy was a nursery for officers who, when they became efficient, left it. In the case of an emergency there might be great difficulty in getting a sufficient number of engineers for the Royal Navy, and should this happen it would not be a pleasant reflection for the noble Lord, that it was in consequence of harsh and rigid regulations that a most valuable class of men had been driven from the service. A minor grievance was, that while sub-lieutenants, second masters, and assistant-surgeons were included in the official Navy List, the naval engineers were omitted, which was an invidious distinction, but it might be an oversight which could be easily remedied. The claims made by the engineers were just, and their concession would promote the efficiency of the service.

LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, that if the Government had power to give a general increase of pay to the navy so valuable a body of men as the engineers should not be excluded from the advantage. But the truth was that admitting the moderation of the hon. Baronet's tone, and sharing his appreciation of the services of the engineers, nothing was so difficult to meet in that House as claims advanced on behalf of a single class of officers without reference to other classes of officers of equal merit and importance, when the position of each must be governed by a general standard applicable to all. When an hon. Member sought to improve the position of a particular class of officers he usually ignored other classes, but the Government was bound to take a wider view, and to consider other classes; and in considering the case of the engineers they could not overlook surgeons, masters, and other classes in the navy. Many of the demands made by the engineers in their Memorial to the Admiralty of the 1st of January were not founded upon a fair comparison of their pay, work, and position, with that of other officers of their rank in the service. As to a man not reaching the top of his profession until he was advanced in years, that was the rule in most employments; but a well-conducted man might become a chief engineer at the age of thirty-three. An engineer receives Sir Edward Dering

half a guinea a day under five years' service; in five years 11s. 6d. a day, and so on up to the higher grades-a rate of payment and of advance proportionate to those of corresponding ranks in the service. The hon. Baronet asked why was there not an increase of pay every year; but if the pay of engineers was to rise annually, so must that of other classes of officers; and the system in the navy was to regulate increase in pay by periods of years. The hon. Ba ronet had omitted to state that engineers had extra allowances when they were in charge of engines, and on a line-of-battle ship the allowance was as high as 3ɛ. a day extra pay. Engineers were only like other classes in not being allowed to count the whole of their time as juniors for increased half-pay. Officers in the navy did not count their service for half-pay until they had attained a position in which they were considered to be thoroughly acquainted with their duties. In the junior classes of the service they were supposed to be learning their business. [Sir EDWARD DERING: Assistant-surgeons.] They were an exception, because their education was long and expensive, and they were professionally competent when they entered the service. There was no difficulty in getting engineers, although the pay was better in the merchant service; but there was difficulty in getting surgeons, because of their prospects in private practice, and it was therefore their duty to propose an increase in the pay of the surgeons. Such considerations ought not always to regulate the action of Government, because there might be individual cases of inadequate payment. Regarding the Memorial from the engineers, which came before the Admiralty only on the 1st of January, it was not wise or politic for a department of the navy to appeal to Parliament for a redress of grievances, when they had gone to the heads of their department to ask for an improvement of their position. He must say that he did not think that these things could be properly dealt with in that House. There were, no doubt, some points of their case which were peculiar, such, for instance, as the nature of their business confining them to a narrow space in a very high temperature; but when their position was compared with that of other officers in the navy, he did not think there was any case for consideration. One thing in their favour was, that whilst officers of almost every class in our service were for a com siderable portion of their time upon half

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pay, engineers were almost continuously on full pay. He could give no promise whatever to the engineers, but could simply say that their Memorial was under the consideration of the Admiralty.

that the claim of the widows to pensions was one that deserved the serious consideration of the Admiralty. He did not understand the different classes and ranks, but he considered it was an extraordinary anomaly that the widows should have no pensions except in the cases of husbands killed in action or dying of wounds received

He

dysentery contracted on an unhealthy sta-
tion, such as the China Sea, equally lost
his life in the service of his country.
hoped the noble Lord would urge the
Board to look into the question, with the
desire not to put it off, but to see what
could be done in the matter.
Motion agreed to.

SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY considered in Committee-NAVY ESTIMATES.

MR. OTWAY said, he congratulated the engineers on obtaining so able an advocate as the hon. Baronet (Sir Edward Dering), who had so fairly and compre-in action. A man who died of fever or hensively explained their case to the House. He (Mr. Otway) complained of the difficulty that existed in the way of obtaining justice from the Admiralty. The only response it was possible to obtain when representations were made of grievances or other matters was that they were "under consideration." This matter had, however, been already considered in the House. The Duke of Somerset stated before a Committee that the subject was under consideration then as it was now. But when would the consideration be brought to any result? It was the complaint of every branch of the service that the Admiralty was always considering the case, but no advantage ever came of it. He was bound to press upon the attention of the House the most important matter concerning the widows of a class of officers who were exposed to unusual dangers, and among whom the mortality was very high. The engineers were confined in an atmosphere the temperature of which ranged from 60 to 145 degrees, while enduring other hardships which it was not necessary for him to recapitulate. Yet the widows of these men were not allowed any pension. He hoped the noble Lord would give the House some satisfactory explanation of the matter.

LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, that the engineers were not the only class of men whose widows did not receive a pension. Nothing was allowed to the widows of assistant-paymasters, second paymasters, and other officers of a corresponding rank with the engineers.

MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, that the engineers were as reluctant as the noble Lord could wish to have their claims brought before the House; but the difficulty was, where else were they to go? They came to the House because it was absurd to go to the Admiralty for redress of grievances. He was much disappointed at hearing the noble Lord's speech, which amounted to this, that the thing would hang on until the end of the Session, and would then be indefinitely postponed, thus holding out no hope to these unfortunate people. He must say that he considered

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £173,655, Admiralty Office.

MR. FERRAND said, he wished to draw attention to a Return for which he had moved, and which he held in his hand, observing that he should like to know what excuse was to be made for the inaccuracy of the information which it contained. In consequence of the opinions expressed in the House and out of it, as to the way in which the Admiralty accounts had been kept, he had been induced to look into the matter. For years great complaint was made as to the incorrectness of these accounts, and no one had found greater fault with them than the noble Lord himself. The hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld), when connected with the Admiralty, had gone on a roving commission, and had made some rather severe remarks on the way in which the accounts were kept. They were told that for the future every farthing of the naval expenditure would be accounted for. With respect to allowances in other departments, the requirements of the Treasury were adhered to, but in the Return referred to he found that no less a sum than £643 was allowed to the Lords of the Admiralty, and to the Secretaries to the Board-the noble Lord opposite and Mr. Romaine-for oil. That allowance he believed to be just and proper, but what he complained of was that no mention was made of its having been converted into a money payment, and that the Lords of the Treasury had not been

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