ness, and it had received some damage, in a clerical capacity; nature of duties at but improvements had been introduced since it was made. LORD ELCHO said, his point with reference to the manufacture of these small arms was, that since the Committee reported some years ago the War Office had manufactured over 100 stands of an arm which was inferior to that recommended, although the requisite alteration in the machinery could have been made at the expense of a few shillings. Vote agreed to. present assigned; pay; amount of charge pay in those cases where an officer was in charge of a station; approximate value of stores under the officer's charge; the period which had elapsed since last promotion; rate of amount of retiring pay. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he could not give to the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Matthew Ridley) a detailed explanation of the item for the removal of stores, but it did not strike him as being excessive, for stores were being constantly landed and shipped at Wool (12.) £428,000, Military Store Estab- wich, and, in fact, there was a movement lishments and Warlike Stores. SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY said, he wished to ask for an explanation of the item of £5,500 for "Hire of horses, Woolwich, for the Removal of Stores.' He thought it very large. MR. OLIPHANT desired to call attention to grievances complained of by the officers of the Military Store Department, in which there was a stagnation without parallel-indeed it seemed to proceed on an inversion of the ordinary principle, so that the longer men had been in the service the lower seemed to be their rank. There was no one among the colonels who had served so long as the lieutenantcolonels, nor of the lieutenant-colonels so long as the majors, nor they so long as the captains, while the lieutenants had served longest of all. There was one officer who, at the average rate of promotion, would have to serve actively seventythree years and reach the age of 110 before he could attain a higher rank. There were anomalies in pay as well as in promotion, and a man who once had £500 a year had steadily risen until his income now was £300 a year. Under such an extraordinary state of things, there could be no wonder that there were great complaints in all the ranks of that service with the exception of the upper rank. The Department contrasted most unfavourably in these respects with the Commissariat Department, and he was sure that an improvement would promote a better feeling than now existed, and would be attended with advantageous results. He gave notice that he should move for the following Returns: Of the names of the officers of the Military Store Department; departmental grade; relative rank; length of service, distinguishing the periods served in each grade, including the time passed going on amongst them during the whole day long. With regard to the Military Store Department, which was a most important one, and the officers of which were most meritorious and hard-working men, he supposed the remedy for the grievances complained of would be the assimilation of the Store Department and Commissariat Department; but such a proposition would involve, not a reduction of the Estimates, but a very considerable increase of them. The Commissariat Department was organized with higher grades of officers simply because the duties were considered by those who organized the Departments to be more responsible. If there had been any considerable stagnation of promotion in the Store Department, it was owing to the fact that the re-organization in 1859 and 1861 placed a great many young men at the top of the service, and a number of old men at the bottom of it. The hardships resulting from these arrangements would be gradually remedied, but it was impossible to obviate them. In former times when a gentleman was appointed storekeeper he had little prospect of promotion; but now, although promotion was not rapid, the prospect of it was supplemented by other substantial advantages. He could not understand the case of a gentleman whose income had fallen from £500 to £300 a year, unless he had at some time received extra pay for the performance of extra duty. SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY said, the answer to his question was not quite satisfactory. He had come to the conclusion that the item of £5,500 for the conveyance of guns was an unreasonable one, considering the really admirable way in which the surface of the road over which the guns were conveyed was kept, and its great hardness. The noble Lord suggested that it was possible he might not have been at Wool wich, but although a civilian he had been ago recommended the adoption of that systo the arsenal there, and had come to the tem, inasmuch as it was impossible to take conclusion that the item of £5,500 for the Civil Service Estimates at the comhorse hire for the removal of stores was mencement of the year, but then it was unreasonable in amount. He thought the understood that the Vote on Account should military horses might be used and thus the involve no new principle but should be only country be saved expense. He did not in conformity with the Votes taken for the wish to divide the Committee on the Civil Service during the previous year. The subject-it was not his habit to do so- rule had been never to take more than a but he desired to have a more satisfac- fourth part of the Vote for the year, except tory answer. He had no desire to ob- in the case of the site for the public offices, struct the Government in getting the ne- the Patent, and Record Offices, and, in the cessary supplies for the service of the present instance, the Vote for Civil Contincountry, but he did think the Govern- gencies, of which rather more than a fourth ment authorities should give the Com- required to be taken because of the heavy mittee some further explanation upon that expenses consequent on the cattle plague. point. If he did not receive a satisfactory The Committee, in agreeing to the Resoluanswer he should be obliged to divide the tion, would not in any degree be pledging Committee. themselves to the Estimates for 1866-7, with regard to which the Committee would have occasion to vote in detail as soon as they were introduced. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he must express his regret that he could not give the hon. Baronet a more satisfactory answer, but he did not know in what way he could do it. He really did not know what horses were employed. SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY said, he would be satisfied if the noble Lord would reserve the Vote for a future occasion or give the information on the bringing up of the Report. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, if he could get the necessary information for the hon. Baronet in time he would give it with the Report. He did not propose to take any other Vote on the Army Estimates that night. Vote agreed to. MR. CORRY said, he wished to ask the Secretary for the Admiralty, what was the latest hour at which he proposed to proceed with the Navy Estimates to-morrow night. LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, he could not exactly say. The only Vote which was likely to lead to discussion he proposed to defer to the next occasion. SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. MR. CHILDERS moved a Resolution that a sum not exceeding £1,828,000 be granted to Her Majesty on account of Civil Service Estimates. In doing so he explained that it was necessary to take such a Vote in advance for the current quarter to meet the expenditure of the first quarter of the financial year. The Committee on Public Monies some years Sir Matthew Ridley flogging had a prior claim to be removed, £14,000 for the taking away of human life was 12,000 as nothing compared with the torture it flicted by the lash. The victims of corporal punishment were as a matter of course removed at once to a hospital to be treated for the injury they had received, and he therefore thought he was justified Total £1,828,000 MR.SCLATER-BOOTH said, he wished to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he proposed to make a general statement in ex-in saying that such punishment was, in planation of the Civil Service Estimates when bringing them before the House? MR. CHILDERS said, it was not usual Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; MARINE MUTINY BILL.-COMMITTEE. fact, an application of torture. From the last Return it appeared that in the great majority of cases flogging was inflicted fr insubordination-an offence the nature di which would greatly depend upon the cha racter and temper of the commanding of cer. A Return relating to the infiction corporal punishment in the navy in 1 showed that the number of cases in the year was 752, and in 73 cases only was the pa ishment awarded by a court martial. He presumed, therefore, that in 90 out of every 100 instances it was inflicted at the mere will of the commanding officer. The same Return stated that in 84 of Her Majes ty's ships not a single lash had been laid on during the year. Now, if in so larges number of vessels discipline could be mai tained without the use of the cat, it was (Mr. Dodson, Lord Clarence Paget, Mr.Childers.) not Quixotic to imagine that such a mode Order for Committee read. Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Clauses 1 to 27, inclusive, agreed to. Clause 28 (Infliction of corporal punishment in certain cases). MR. P. A. TAYLOR moved the omission of the clause. He said, he would appeal to the Committee to remove from the number of our punishments that which was the most severe, the most brutal, and he thought he might say, the most barbarous of them all. We thought in this country, and not altogether without justice, that we were in the advance of civilization, and, amongst other evidences of that, we pointed to the mildness of our criminal code; but, nevertheless, we were a long time throwing over some of the slough of the old regime. It was not ninety years since the abolition of the pillory, and not eighty years had passed since the law was abolished which condemned women to be burnt alive for treason. We had gone on amending the of punishment might be dispensed with a together. It was said that so brutal were the class from which the army and nary were recruited that flogging was indispe sable as the most economical method of maintaining subordination. His answer to that was, if it were necessary, as a meats of abolishing this brutal punishment, let them employ a better class of men. He was sure the country would not grudge the er pense; and then let it be a sufficient pa ishment for any breach of discipline to dismiss the culprit from the service. He hoped the Committee would agree to the abolition of a punishment which was barbarous and disgraceful to our navy. with LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, the hon. Gentleman seemed to be under some misapprehension respecting the Bill before the Committee. It had, in reality, nothing whatever to do either with the navy or the Marines afloat. A certain number of Marines was voted annually for shore ser vice, and they were under the same dis pline as the army. The navy proper · and severity of our criminal law, and only the the Marines afloat were under the Naval other day it was proposed that capital Discipline Act. The hon. Gentleman had punishment should no longer be inflicted quoted figures to show that the number of in the presence of a mob. He trusted the cases of flogging was very high. He might time might soon come when capital punish- however, inform the hon. Gentleman that, ments should be abolished altogether; but according to the last Returns, out of 8,566 Marines on shore, only eighteen had been corporally punished. The men were now getting to be of a very superior class, owing to the advantages they obtained in regard both to pay and education, and corporal punishment was diminishing annually, and would no doubt continue to do so if left to itself, but he thought the House would agree that it would not be advisable to put it down by Act of Parliament. Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill." the country. He did not admit that the lash was necessary to the maintenance of discipline in time of peace. As to a time of war he would say nothing, for in a period of that kind there was violence on all sides, and when men took pay to be killed it did not seem necessary to be so particular about flogging. 66 MR. HUNT said, he had thought that the platform of the Radicals was peace, retrenchment, and reform," but after the speech of the hon. Member for Oxford The Committee divided:-Ayes 71; trenchment" was excised from his platform; (Mr. Neate) it was quite evident that "reNoes 22 Majority 49. : for he now proposed that there should be Clauses 29 to 38, inclusive, agreed to. a greater expenditure, and as this increased Clause 39 ("Branding "). expenditure was for the purpose of having a much better military force the hon. MR. P. A. TAYLOR moved its omis- Member could not be in favour of "peace.' sion. The question of "Reform was to come before the House on Monday, and it would not be surprising if not the slightest portion of the Radical platform were left after that day. COLONEL NORTH said, he wished to ask the hon. Member whether he really thought the officers of the army and navy took a pleasure in flogging. They resorted to it only for the purpose of maintaining disci- MR. NEATE said, he strenuously obpline, but Gentlemen opposite had a mono-jected to be classed as a Radical. poly of humanity. If the hon. Gentleman and his Friends would move and carry an increase of the pay of soldiers and sailors, he would render it possible to procure a better class of men. MR. NEATE said, he would be glad to support a Motion for better pay. The only way to compel the Government to bring forward a proposition to that effect was to force them by the abolition of such punishments not to rely on the low class of men who needed them. MR. AYRTON said, he had hoped that the discussion would be continued, not in reference to a question of money, but on the high moral principle in which it commenced. If it were merely a question between flogging and branding soldiers or sailors and increasing their pay, the former would undoubtedly be the more economical alternative. He thought the British army was not organized on a principle that recommended itself for good administration, and was by no means satisfactory. The object of flogging and branding was, perhaps, to supplement the incapacity of officers to perform the duties which devolved on them, and withdrawing the power of the lash would have the effect of securing more capable commanding officers. To listen to the remarks of the gallant Colonel opposite and other officers in that House one would fancy that the country existed for the army, and not the army for SIR ROBERT CLIFTON said, that when the question of humanity was raised, hon. Members who sat on the ultra-Liberal Benches would not allow retrenchment to interfere. Flogging was a disgrace to the country. The son of the postmaster of the town he had the honour of representing died under the lash at Hounslow some years ago. But branding was even worse. He had been informed by experienced officers that men after being flogged were never worth anything again as a soldier. MR. REARDEN said, he opposed the system of branding and flogging, as being repugnant to humanity, and because he thought more effectual remedies might be applied. He considered that soldiers could be much better governed by kindness than severity. COLONEL NORTH said, that corporal punishment was never inflicted by officers without the effects of kindness having been previously tried. No colonel had the power of inflicting corporal punishment on his own account. It must have been ordered by a court martial. He would ask, had nothing ever been heard about flogging in our gaols? Curious Returns on this point had been presented two or three years ago, from which it appeared that three boys had received forty-eight lashes of the cat-o'-nine tails for having torn the leaves out of their Prayer Book; but in the service, corporal punishment was now exceedingly rare. |