ply the particular article? Monopoly de- | certain number of years. GENERAL PEEL said, he understood that there was only one contractor. While he was Secretary at War the institution at Pimlico was brought into operation, and there were a great number of contractors. On two occasions of late years there had arisen two emergencies calling suddenly for a large increase of clothing, the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny. When the War Department was remodelled it was Lord Panmure's view upon the experience of the Crimea that the army should have always in store a good stock of everything wanted. When he entered upon office £300,000 was spent upon a building to contain all the stores necessary. In the fortification scheme which Lord Palmerston proposed, a great central depôt for stores was included, and up to the beginning of last year Lord Palmerston had not abandoned that idea. A moderate store of clothing ought to be kept in readiness for sudden calls, but there was no need to supply a very large reserve. That proposal naturally created considerable alarm, and led to the waiting of a deputation, of which he was one, upon the Secretary of State, who undertook to put off all further proceedings with regard to the Curragh until the parties interested had an opportunity of expressing their opinions, and until inquiry could be made. They expected that an inquiry would be held upon the spot; but nothing of the kind took place. During the recess, in the month of November, notice was given in the local newspapers of a Bill to be brought in by the Woods and Forests, which caused the greatest consternation in the minds of those who took an interest in the subject. The proposal was to divide the Curragh into two parts, to be applied to military purposes, including those of the War Department. He wished to know whether that Department sanctioned or approved the proposed arrangement? The military authorities at the Curragh, almost to a man, were averse to the principle of the scheme, as being useless for military purposes, and as being likely to impose unnecessary trouble and expense. Furthermore, it would cast upon them increased and very onerous duties. In Ireland the project was regarded with great suspicion and dislike; it had excited a great amount of hostile feeling, and very general satisfaction would be afforded if the noble Lord were able to give an assurance that, as far as the War Department were concerned, the scheme had been definitely abandoned. To carry it out would be impossible, without the greatest infringement of public and private rights ever attempted by a public department. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that if the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Stuart Knox) would tell him privately from which regiments complaints of MR. CHILDERS said, it would be his the clothing had been sent in he would in- duty in a very few days to introduce the quire into the matter. The clothing kept Bill alluded to by the noble Lord, but its at Pimlico was clothing which had accu-provisions would be very different from mulated in consequence of more having been provided for regiments than was required; but he was not aware that it ever had been intended to keep up a large stock of ordinary regimental clothing. He believed the clothing of the cavalry was made in the regimental workshops. Vote agreed to. (3.) £603,300, Barrack Establishment Services and Supplies. LORD NAAS said, the Committee would recollect that it was discovered that the War Department had resolved to take on lease from the Office of Woods and Forests the whole of the Curragh of Kildare for a those which had been described. So far from tending to infringe any vested interests, the Bill aimed at discovering, by a judicial process, what rights actually existed. Commissioners would be appointed to examine all rights existing in connection with the Curragh, and from their decisions an appeal would lie to the highest court in Ireland. When the Bill was brought in the noble Lord would see that it was really an attempt to remove a scandal of the present condition of the Cuaragh, and he hoped that meanwhile the merits of that measure would not be prematurely discussed. LORD NAAS said, the object he had in view was to ascertain, whether in the opinion of the War Department one-half the Curragh should be set apart for public purposes? That was a perfectly legitimate question. ever under the proposed arrangement. With regard to the case of the ranger he had to observe that the position of that officer had formerly been a mere sinecure ; but since the occupation of the Curragh by troops he had to discharge very onerous duties; and it was therefore thought proper that an addition should be made to his salary. MR. M. MORRIS said, he was anxious to direct attention to another point connected with barrack accommodation at Galway. They had already discussed and admitted the right of the military authori ties to act as tradesmen; but he could not bring himself to believe that the War De MR. COGAN said, he could corroborate the statement of the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth as to the feeling excited in Ireland by the threatened measure of the Government. He trusted that the noble Marquess the Secretary for War would be able to assure the Committee that the influence of a great public department like the Department of Woods and Forests would not be brought to bear unjustly and harshly against poor commoners, who would be without power of resistance. The compartment engaged with propriety in agrimon rights of those dwellings on the borders of the Curragh had been seriously encroached upon by the formation of the camp at the Curragh; but, recognizing the importance of the public object involved, they submitted without remonstrance to the sacrifice of some of their private rights. Now, however, it was proposed to extinguish rights which had existed for centuries, and some even that were guaranteed by charter dating from the reign of Charles. MAJOR STUART KNOX said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury to explain why the sum of £320 paid to the ranger of the Curragh was not given to a retired military officer instead of a civilian? THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that so far from the condition of the Curragh being in all respects satisfactory, he was lead to believe that in many respects it required amendment. LORD NAAS: But the military authorities at the Curragh are opposed to this particular form of amendment. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he had heard nothing to that effect. The General commanding and the principal officer of engineers were certainly not in favour of the proposal to leave the Curragh as now existing, but he had not heard of any remonstrance from them with regard to the Bill about to be introduced. He was surprised to hear any objection made to the course taken by the authorities in the matter, for he understood that they were merely acting in conformity with the wishes expressed in that House last year. He could state that they did not intend to interfere in any way with the private rights or to confiscate any man's property. The rights of the real commoners as distinguished from usurpers-would be preserved, and would even perhaps be rendered more valuable than Lord Naas cultural operations. Yet, what was the was no fit building for their reception. | one in the Department responsible for the The Department had no right to take land expenditure under it. With regard to the for barrack purposes and then to let it as observations of the hon. Member for Galway middlemen for profit. He hoped the noble (Mr. Morris), he must say that he could not Marquess would be able to give some satis- be responsible for the acts of the Board of factory explanation why, when ground for Ordnance eleven years ago. The narrative the erection of barracks had been taken so of the hon. Member certainly showed that many years ago, a building which was so he was more careful of the interests of his necessary for the safety of that part of the constituents than his predecessors had been; country, the town being filled with soldiers but all that could be said in reply to the to enforce the suspension of the Habeas Cor- question raised was that inquiries should be pus Act, had not yet been proceeded with. made into the matter, and if it were found COLONEL BARTTELOT wished to know that no present intention existed to erect why this large sum had been lumped to- barracks on the ground referred to, whatgether? He observed that £73,000 for ever was right under those circumstances musketry-drill, &c., was one of the items should be done. At the same time, he mentioned in it. His hon. and gallant Friend would remark that he had not gathered the Member for Berks had called attention from the hon. Member's observations what to the subject of musketry instruction, and he desired the War Department to do. Was pointed out its expense. He should like to it his wish that the land should be re-sold? ask the noble Marquess to state clearly what MR. M. MORRIS said, that he did not was the expense of this musketry instruc- complain of the ground having been bought, tion. It would be well if all the items con- but that the barracks had not been comnected with it were placed side by side, so menced. He was of opinion that, taking that they might see what was expended on into consideration the number of the people it in the army. In page 14 there were of Galway, and the size of the province of charges of £1,065 and £598 for captain- which it was the capital, barracks should instructors of musketry and assistant-in- be erected there on the land bought for the structors of musketry, in addition to regi-purpose. As matters stood, the War Demental pay. Then, there was this Vote, partment seemed to have fallen asleep over which included "musketry;" but it was the matter. impossible to say how much belonged to musketry and how much did not. On page 32 there was £1,000 charged as "Allowance to officers and non-commissioned officers while under instruction at Hythe, Fleetwood, and Shoeburyness or in the regiments of the Line." Again, on page 45, there was a charge of £64,000 for "purchase of land and erecting rifle ranges, huts, &c., for 700 men." On page 68, also, there were two items of £35 under the heads of Hythe and Fleetwood, for schools. It would certainly be convenient for the Committee to have all these items under one head, in order that they might see what instruction in musketry in the army really did cost. The subject was one that ought to be seriously inquired into. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, they had tried to make the Vote as intelligible as they could, but he was not sure that the rule suggested by the hon. and gallant Member would be found at all convenient. Vote 4 contained the charges for barracks and charges paid by barrack masters. To put in that Vote charges which properly came under the Works Vote would be extremely inconvenient, and would entirely frustrate the object in view of making some VOL. CLXXXI. [THIRD SERIES.] GENERAL PEEL said, the engineer officer had in 1855 reported against the erection of barracks at the spot. No sum of money whatever appeared to have been taken for the barracks referred to. MR. M. MORRIS said, that there should have been. MR. WHALLEY said, he wished to inquire, respecting the item of £11,682 for deodorizing and emptying cesspools, whether any uniform system had been followed by those who did the work. Would the system practised at Knightsbridge be extended to other barracks? COLONEL PERCY HERBERT said, he wished to call attention to the subject of promotions. The warrant laid down in the tenth paragraph that the primary ground for promotion should be personal merit as exhibited by zeal, ability, and general good conduct, as well as length of service. That, in his opinion, was very vague. It was not desirable that promotion in the whole Department should depend primarily upon the option of the Secretary of State for the time being. He hoped the question would be considered, and that a portion at least of the promotions would be ordered according to seniority, as was the case in other departments. 3 L THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, I the Government should have the assistance he was not aware that the warrant read by of a legal adviser in the House of Comthe hon. and gallant Member was different mons on military questions. The Judge from warrants of the same character in Advocate was not the only officer in the other branches of the service, but he knew Department. The Deputy Judge Advocate that all departments of the War Office pos- not being removable with a change of Adsessed the power to bar the promotion of ministration, an uniformity of practice was an inefficient official. This was thought to a certain extent secured. On the whole, right on the principle that a man might be he could not see that sufficient advantage usefully employed in an inferior capacity would arise from making the change proand be deemed incompetent to fill a more posed. important office. He would cause inquiry to be made respecting the matter referred to by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley). Vote agreed to. (4.) £41,100, Divine Service. (5.) £22,000, Martial Law. LORD HENRY PERCY asked, whether the Government would consider the advan tage to be derived by the army from making the office of Judge Advocate General permanent? Much discussion had arisen of late upon the subject of courts martial; and he was of opinion that a stop should be put to all comment on the proceedings of such courts, for discipline could not be maintained in the army if it were permitted that officers should be loaded with abuse. With respect to the appointment of Judge Advocate General, he would remark that the gentleman appointed was generally a barrister and a political adherent, not cognizant of military law and totally ignorant of military discipline. The moment he took office he had to go to school to learn his duties, and the chances were at the end of six months he would be turned out. Another would then be appointed who in his turn had to go through the same course. It was desirable that his decisions should be uniform. At present the duties were performed by the Deputy Judge Advocate. Judge Advocates should be appointed exactly in the same manner as the Judges of the land; and, as the Secretary of State for the Home Department was the mouthpiece in Parliament for the Judges of the Superior Courts, so the Secretary of State for War should be the mouthpiece of the Judge Advocate. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that the question was one of great importance. Very possibly considerable convenience and some material advantage might arise from a change which made the office of Judge Advocate permanent and not temporary. But there were a great many reasons which made it necessary that Colonel Percy Herbert LORD HENRY PERCY said, he thought it would be better if the Judge Advocate General were not obliged to attend the House. He would be more profitably employed in the work which was now performed by a subordinate. MR. SANDFORD said, that the noble Lord who had just sat down did not appreciate duly the functions of the Judge Advocate, who was the legal adviser of the Government. He might as well propose to make the Attorney and Solicitor Generals permanent officers. It was a question, however, for the Government to determine whether the Judge Advocate should not be relieved from his quasi-judicial funetions. LORD HENRY PERCY said, that the Admiralty was not provided with such an officer. SIR CHARLES RUSSELL said, be wished to draw attention to the Report, by Colonel Henderson, on Military Prisons in 1864, in which the erection of a prison at Aldershot was recommended. He could himself speak of the necessity of a new military prison at Aldershot. At the same time, he was very glad that the new prison had not been built. He had been told by a good authority that in the military prisons in France the practice was to utilize the whole of the prison labour. Now, any one who had gone through our military prisons must have been struck with the amount of useless labour performed. One gang of prisoners were made to carry shot and to pile it up at one end of the yard, and another gang were sent to unpile it. The Governor at Aldershot had assured him that if he were permitted to utilize the prison labour the prisoners might earn easily their entire subsistence. Shot-drill produced a kind of sulky acquiescence in an occupation which went, as nearly as possible, to turn a man into a brute. The prisoner came out a weaker, and not a stronger man; and as soon as he returned to the ranks he took the first opportunity of having a drink. The result was, that as much liquor as would have done him no harm the week before he went into prison, made him drunk, and he soon found himself in confinement again. There was a great difference in the offences committed by military prisoners as compared with civil offences, and they required a different treatment. The principal offences were drunkenness and insubordination. They ought to make an effort to carry out to a greater extent that which the military inspectors had certified to be beneficial. Suppose a military prison were to be built, he ventured to suggest that it should be capable of containing not 400 but 1,000 men, as that would comprehend nearly all their military prisoners, the average number being 1,005. At Aldershot the sewage had been applied to eighty acres, and had rendered them very fertile. He suggested that the rest of the 1,000 acres belonging to the Crown there should be similarly treated. The prisoners, besides reclaiming the land might be employed in forming gardens for the soldiers. It appeared that only eighty out of 340 prison labourers at Aldershot were usefully employed. A very high authority had objected to his suggestions on the ground that they would make prison labour an indulgence, that forced labour was never useful, and that the expense of the diet would counterbalance its advantages. He had made inquiries as to the diet, and had found that it would only be the addition of eight ounces of bread a week per man when outside the prison. It was a great reflection on this country that we should treat military prisoners with so much severity as we did. cipline of prisons. The chief objection that could be offered to the scheme of the hon. Baronet was that it would render prison labour too agreeable, so that it might prove rather an indulgence than a punishment, and so lose its deterrent effect. It had been found that unproductive labour, such as shot-drill, was regarded by the convicts as far more severe and tedious than useful labour, and it was, therefore, looked upon as being a more effectual punishment. Still, he saw no reason why there should not be further inquiry into the subject, since it was difficult to understand why the punishment of military should be more severe than that of civil prisoners. Vote agreed to. Services, and Supplies. (7.) £842,600, Disembodied Militia, SIR JAMES FERGUSSON said, he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord to the case of a very deserving class of militia officers namely, the militia quartermasters. The War Office must be fully aware of the great advantages that had resulted from the changes which had already been introduced into this branch of the service, as while there was considerable difficulty in recruiting for the army, recruits were easily obtained for the militia, and the men were always anxious to be re-enrolled, and it was therefore a pity to permit a grievance that might easily be remedied to remain. The quartermasters of the military were chosen from among the old non-commissioned officers of the regular army, and on their appointment to a militia regiment they received altogether, including their pension of 2s. a day, the sum of 78. a day, while they ranked with junior lieutenants. But when the regiment to which they were attached was disembodied, their pay, unless they had been embodied for ten years, was suddenly cut down to the 2s. a day they derived from their pensions as non-commissioned officers. That was a great hardship upon men who had been accustomed for years to means which enabled them to live in comparative comfort, and who had occupied a gentlemanly position. It was not creditable to the country that a man who was incapacitated THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, at sixty years of age should be sent adrift the subject was one that deserved atten- with such an allowance as could not suption. The prison regulations for the mili- port him. One quartermaster was subject tary prisons had been recently drawn up to epileptic fits, and on retiring was only by a committee of gentlemen who had a given the allowance of a non-commissioned large practical acquaintance with the dis-officer. He did not desire an immediate MR. THOMAS CAVE said, he had visited in 1859 the convict establishment at Kingston, in Canada, where at least 1,000 convicts were confined, and was informed that the prisoners were hired out annually by auction to the highest bidder to be employed in various kinds of labour. By this system, in addition to the whole cost of the establishment, including their maintenance, being defrayed, the Government cleared a profit of £40 a day, being 10d. a day on each prisoner. That was a proof that it was possible to employ the convicts in outdoor labour without loss to the country. |