tions under which policemen in plain clothes | sengers in the Civil Service was £35,000 were employed. He hoped the House would a year, and he thought that nothing would not constitute itself a judicial tribunal for tend more to facilitate recruiting than the the consideration of a case that had been knowledge on the soldier's part that if he avowedly stated on information contained behaved himself well in the army he might in the newspapers and on the ex parte obtain one of those situations when his statement of the person accused. It was period of service was completed. It might but right that he should also state that Mr. be said that by the adoption of the suggesFerguson, after finding what he had done, tion the Government would lost patronage. had expressed his deep sorrow. Every one He did not at all wish to see the patronage who was at all acquainted with the high in the hands of the Government diminished, character of Mr. Traill, and the long expe- but he thought that when the Government rience he had had, must know that he was had given up the patronage of the more not a gentleman who would do an act that important offices, they might as well do would lay himself open to just animadver- the same with the smaller ones. He hoped sion. He hoped the House would suspend that the matter would receive the attention its judgment until the matter had under- of the Royal Commission about to be apgone further judicial investigation. pointed. Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to. Main Question put, and agreed to. SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY considered in Committee :ARMY ESTIMATES-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES (on Account). (In the Committee.) LORD HOTHAM said, that the subject had come under the notice of a Commission of which he was the president, and they made a distinct recommendation to the Government. He believed, if the War Office would act upon that recommendation a little more extensively, one of the present difficulties in the way of recruiting would be put an end to. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that the subject referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Fane) had (1.) £1,134,800, Commissariat Estab- been several times under the consideration lishment. COLONEL H. H. FANE asked the Secretary of State for War, whether, looking at the great difficulty now experienced in officering the Militia, and the consequent necessity of getting officers from the half-pay of the Line and distant localities, he would be prepared to allow them travelling expenses beyond the boundaries of their several counties and to their bona fide residences? MR. PERCY WYNDHAM asked the Secretary of State for War, if it would not, in his opinion, facilitate recruiting for the army if appointments in the Civil Service, up to the value of 25s. per week, were thrown open to those soldiers who, after eighteen years' service with good character, chose to qualify themselves for these appointments? He said, that under the Ten Years' Act Her Majesty lost the services of non-commissioned officers just at the time they were most useful. At present, non-commissioned officers who after leaving the army obtained situations gave the greatest satisfaction, and he was sure that they would be perfectly competent to discharge the duties of messengers and similar offices in the Civil Service. At present the annual sum paid to the mes Sir George Grey of different Secretaries of State, none of whom considered it would be advisable to make any change in the present system, because the militia force was intended to be, and it was hoped, in spite of the difficulty at present experienced in obtaining subaltern officers, would continue to be mainly a local force. He doubted whether the payment of the travelling expenses of the officers to their own residences would remove the difficulty of obtaining subaltern officers. He believed that officers on halfpay in the Line would not join the militia in any rank subordinate to that of captain. The matter had been under consideration, and it did not appear that any good result would be obtained from the payment of larger sums. In reply to the question of the other hon. and gallant Gentleman (Mr. Percy Wyndham), he had no hesitation in saying that it would be a very grest advantage to recruiting for the Line if the Civil Service could be thrown open to pensioners to a greater extent than it was at present. The experiment had been tried for a short time of employing soldier clerks in the War Office, and it had proved suecessful. The heads of the Department spoke highly of them, and of the efficient manner in which they performed their | occurrences in the sister country. They duties. If the experiment should continue might now keep their troops in England to work satisfactorily in the War Depart- for two years instead of one year at parment no doubt it would be an inducement ticular stations, which would save much to other Departments to follow the same expense. course. COLONEL NORTH, said he wished to ask why the amount of the Vote was smaller than last year? THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that it was in consequence of the reduction of the force in China. COLONEL NORTH said he did not think the force in China had been reduced. COLONEL SYKES said, that the number of subordinate officers of Commissariat employed was not stated in the Estimates. He also wished to ask a few questions with reference to the rations. He wanted to know if the rations were served to 133,000 men, or to a greater or less number, and whether they were served for 365 or 300 days? He also wished to know if a ration cost the same in England as in the colonies, and if this was not the case, how much it cost in India and how much in the colonies? THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that the forces in China had not yet been reduced, but they would shortly be, as one regiment had been ordered home. In the Appendix to the Estimates a very full statement was given of all the officers in the Commissariat Department, and of the number of subordinates employed at each etation. Rations were provided for the whole of the troops on the home establishment for every day in the year; and he saw that they were provided for the troops in several of the colonies in the same manner as was done at home. He could not then speak as to the practice in regard to rations in the rest of the colonies. COLONEL NORTH said, he wished to inquire what the "consolidated allowances" alluded to in one of the items consisted of? THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, they consisted of colonial allowances which were now given in a consolidated form. CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, he wished to call attention to the increasing charge for the conveyance of troops by railway. It amounted to upwards of £5,000 more than in the preceding year. The reason that formerly existed for moving the quarters of our troops so frequently no longer operated. Within the last twelve months there had been an unnecessary movement of troops from England to Ireland, and from Ireland to England, before the recent unhappy Vote agreed to. (2.) £454,400, Clothing Establishments. COLONEL SYKES said, he thought the charge for the clothing of our soldiers was very high, and nearly double the cost of the clothing for the corresponding grades of the French army. Great care was taken in regard to the clothing of the French soldier, particularly as to accuracy in fitting him. He wished to refer to the clothing establishment at Pimlico, and submitted that the tailoring wages should be of less amount than they appeared to be. By means of contracts or by efficient superintendence, an endeavour ought to be made to effect a reduction in that Vote. CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, that in instituting a comparison between the cost of the clothing of the English and the French army they must not be misled by the French Estimates, which simply included the coatee, the trousers, and the shako. He did not think either that the quality of the material was equal to that used here. The French soldier received an allowance in respect of his other articles of dress. The Government clothing manufactory at Pimlico had been of great service, not only in supplying a better kind of cloth and better fitting clothes for the army than they had before, but also in cheapening its cost. That establishment acted as a check upon the contractors, and kept down their prices. Before it existed the contract price of the soldier's coatee was £1 18. 10d., whereas it was now 16s. 7d. Persons who had lived upon the sale of the smaller articles of soldiers' clothing were now, he might say, "shut up." A balancesheet for the establishment, made up according to Mr. Cobden's principle, had been prepared, and would be in the hands of Members in a few days. The War Department held that it was necessary that a civilian should manage the contracts for clothes; and when it was considered that a million of money annually passed through his hands, he ought not without very cogent reasons to be supplanted by a military officer. If the hon. and gallant Colonel were to visit the clothing establishment he would neither object to the work done nor the number of people employed at it. COLONEL SYKES said, 297 persons CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, the central depôt could make clothing at a much cheaper rate than any contractor. were employed in the establishment at a | England exported 160 or 170 million pounds total cost of £474,000. The cost of the worth of manufactured goods annually; and clothing was extraordinary. Several items such was the confidence manifested in the showed how high the cost was. In the Im- British manufacturer that goods of cerperial Guard the cost was not half so much, tain brands were carried thousands of miles though it might be necessary to have such away without undergoing inspection. Of an establishment to test the charges of the course there was a reputable and a disrecontractors. He had always maintained, putable class of manufacturers, and Goand he still urged, that it would be far vernment officials had always been conbetter to put the majority of the work out nected with the latter, the class which profor public competition. vided devil's dust and shoddy; consequently, goods of a worthless description had been supplied. For his own part, he looked upon the consolidation of the War and Ordnance SIR CHARLES RUSSELL said, that Department which took place some years by means of the Pimlico store system they ago as a financial calamity, inasmuch as it had obtained an efficient check over their prevented the Chancellor of the Exchequer supervisors, and the consequence was that from possessing that proper influence over they had a very good class of supervisors the expenditure of the War Office which he now. Every article was stamped, not exercised under the old system. The aponly with the store stamp, but the number pointment of Secretary for War as a Caof the supervisor. The consequence was binet Minister placed that official-a man that every article, whether at home or of distinguished rank-upon an equality abroad, that did not wear well, could be with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and reported upon, so that the defaulting super- he could not now exercise proper and visor could be reached, and good super-effective control over the War Department. visors obtained. The hon. and gallant Colonel advocated retrenchment, but he might say that they had already reduced the price of clothing enormously, and that if anything took them back to the old system, which was only upset by the Crimean War, they would get back to a system as rotten as the clothes it produced. LORD ELCHO said, he thought the clothing of our soldiers should be well made, well fitting, and of the best materials, but it was important also that those clothes should be worn in the way that would be most conducive to their health. Not unfrequently sentinels might be seen in London in the depth of winter, when the weather was coldest, without their great coats, while in summer, on the hottest days, if there happened to be a little wet, the men were muffled up in their coats. He believed the men put them on and took them off by order, and those orders were not very judiciously given. MR. WHITE said, he could not share in the admiration which had been expressed by hon. Members of the Pimlico establishment. He held it to be a reproach to Great Britain that the Government were compelled to manufacture the tunics and trousers worn by the soldiers. It might be alleged that the contractors did their work badly; but if that were true it was evidence that there was something wrong in the Department specially dealing with those matters. Colonel Sykes As an evidence that the system indicated the weakness of the Executive they had seen how the military Estimates had swollen. Government could not make manufactured articles as cheaply or as well as private traders who were respectable persons. Government never looked into the value of its plant; never took account of the vast amount of waste; and never derived advantage from all those items, almost invisible to the Government, but which formed the profits of the private trader. He would recommend the new Members of the House instead of entering into the details of each Vote as it arose, with a view to economy, to deal with the principle involved in the system before the Speaker left the Chair, because very little good could be effected in the shape of reduction by discussions in Supply. That the Government should undertake to manufacture the various articles which they required, he regarded as a reproach to us as a manufacturing nation, for he agreed with the late Lord Lansdowne and Sir Henry Parnell, that they must of necessity be the worst agriculturists and the worst manufacturers possible. It seemed marvellous, under those circumstances, that the Government could not depend upon private firms for the supply of tunics and trousers to our soldiers. There were many known firms which could not afford to furnish a bad article because-not to speak of any higher motive of the - loss of reputation which they would in consequence suffer. He had been furnished with minute details which would support his view of the case, but he declined to enter into them on the present occasion, believing it to be better to confine himself to the question of principle. The late Mr. Cobden had stated a short time before he died that £500,000,000 sterling had been voted for the army and navy while he was in that House, without a single item having been struck off. He should therefore not trouble the Committee by asking them to divide on the present Vote, but should content himself with protesting against a system which he regarded as degrading to the national character. LORD HENRY PERCY said, that as general officer, he had had to inspect clothing of different descriptions, and that he felt confident that every captain under his command would tell the House that the clothing furnished by the Government was a hundred times better than that supplied by private contract. SIR HARRY VERNEY said, he wished to urge upon the Government the expediency of giving the soldier employment in the way of making articles for his own use. COLONEL BARTTELOT said, that having looked into the Vote for many years he found it to be completely under the control of the Government, because there were no means of drawing a comparison between the articles manufactured by them and those supplied by a private contractor. It would be much more satisfactory if instead of giving the cost of the tunics, and boots and shoes in a lump sum, the price of each article was furnished. The cost involved in the wear and tear of their establishment was not, he might add, included in the Vote, while it was always taken into account by private firms. He thought it would be advisable that the Government should not manufacture so much, though he was quite ready to admit that the army was now far better clothed than formerly. MR. O'REILLY said, he was afraid the Committee would be somewhat misled by the statement that in the French army the soldiers made all their own clothes except the eagles on their uniforms and their shakos. The fact was that each French regiment consisted of three battalions; and each battalion furnished a certain number of workmen who remained at the depôt, and did, no doubt, make a great proportion of the clothing. Practically, there were three small clothing establishments con There was a nected with each regiment. rule that the men should be changed, but when the officer in charge had good workmen he was loth to part with them, and, on the other hand, these sedentary soldiers were never very effective. He was, however, a great advocate for the soldiers in minor matters doing such things themselves. The 60th Rifles were clothed by contract, and were remarkably well clothed. The prices were well known, and, therefore, it was hardly fair to say there was no test of comparison. He did not think it would be advisable to encumber the Estimates with the details of prices every year. He CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, he was greatly surprised by the remarks of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. White) that the Government never could make out a balance-sheet. The balance-sheets of these clothing establishments were drawn up on a plan of the late Mr. Cobden, and if he did not know how to make out a balancesheet, who did? Every item, including wear and tear, would be found inserted. The hon. Member said the Government were so unfortunate that they always fell into the hands of dishonest contractors, but the facts of the case were a sufficient answer to that charge. The contracts were all advertised and open to everybody, and how such startling facts as those which had been mentioned could be possible he was at a loss to know. Since the introduction of these clothing establishments the contracts were 25 per cent lower, and they were useful not only in that way but in testing the cloths sent in by contractors. visited one of these establishments the other day and was shown two pieces of cloth, one good and the other so bad that it was impossible for it to be applied to any purpose. At the same time it looked so well; and, on being asked to select the better sample of the two, he chose the bad piece. In fact, it was so difficult to tell the one from the other that for aught he knew both the hon. Member for Brighton and himself might be clothed in "shoddy." However, if it were impossible to clothe the army without contractors, there should be an efficient supervision, for it was a wellknown fact that the clothing sent out to the Crimea in a great exigency were made in Seven Dials and Whitechapel-in districts afflicted with all sorts of infectious diseases, and some of the sickness which was so fatal to our troops went out in that clothing. ["Oh, oh!"] The fact was well-known. The Trent affair showed the necessity for having the means at hand | be remembered that the Government was of sending out a large supply of clothing the only consumer. No one else wanted upon an emergency. The contractors now tunics of these particular patterns, and as supplied 60 battalions out of 148 com- to guns of great size it was not to be expletely with clothing, and it was well to pected that there would be any other purhave the Government factory to prevent chasers. It would be easy, therefore, for the contractors having a monopoly. It a number of contractors to combine towas a good thing to have these Govern- gether and make extravagant profits on ment establishments as a nucleus; although those articles; and, therefore, although the he did not advocate everything being in principle of competition was right, it might the hands of the departments. be carried too far. It was not correct to say that no charge on account of buildings of the Government manufactory appeared. The item was under the head" buildings and clerk of the works." If hon. Members would examine the balance-sheet to be laid on the table they would find that the cost of every item was distinctly stated, every source of expenditure being taken into account. COLONEL SYKES said, that the result of the French system was that a private's jacket in France cost 56f., or a little more than £2 instead of £3 9s., the price in England. MR. CARNEGIE said, that the system of conscription brought more skilled labourers into the ranks in France than in England; and he did not see how the plan of having all the clothing made in the regiment could be carried into effect in this country. He thought no comparison could be drawn to any purpose between the French Estimates and our own. In our army regimental tailors were always fully employed in making repairs of the men's clothing; but if the clothing were to be made by them he believed it would turn out to be of no great value. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that it was useless to institute a comparison between our Estimates and those of the French, unless the latter were laid on the table. The French Estimates were constructed upon an entirely different principle, and he doubted whether there were more than one or two Members in the House who understood the French prin ciple. The hon. Member for Brighton had not answered, and indeed could not answer, the fact that the contract prices of clothing had greatly decreased since the Govern ment had introduced these clothing factories. He did not understand the hon. Member to say that all the contractors were dishonest men, but that the Government officials had a great aptness at finding out those that were dishonest; but would the hon. Member point out in what way the country would receive greater benefit from competition? At present, although the competition was quite open to everybody, one great contractor had beaten all the others out of the field. If, therefore, the Government had not these factories it would be entirely in the hands of Mr. Tait, and did the hon. Member think that would be an economical arrangement? In these particular articles, too, it should Captain Vivian MAJOR STUART KNOX said, he had understood that certain commanding officers having complained of the clothing wrote to the clothing department on the subject but received no answer. As there were plenty of clerks at the War Office, some might be sent to the clothing estab lishment to answer the letters of complaint sent there by the commanding officers. MR. DISRAELI said, he did not quite understand the noble Marquess. He should have thought that where one person alone supplied an article, it would be very difficult to secure competition; whereas, he understood the noble Lord to put a case where, with a great many persons supplying an article, it would be difficult to secure competition. If the circumstances had been exactly reversed they would perhaps have brought about the conclusion the noble Lord wished the Committee to adopt. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, that what he had stated was that where there was only one consumer of the article it was very easy for a limited number of contractors to combine together and charge what they liked. He had mentioned before that only one contractor, Mr. Tait, of Limerick, supplied clothing to the War Office. This was not because there was any restriction of competition, but because, being a large contractor, he was able to supply clothing cheaper than other per sons. MR. DISRAELI said, he did not think the explanation of the noble Marquess threw any light on the matter. Why should the noble Marquess assume that there was only a limited number of persons who could sup |