but what a difference there is in the expense as regards salaries and poundage! In Westminster, out of £194,000, they pay £17,462, while Marylebone, for having the same work done a great deal better, only pays £7,711. So much for the financial effect of dividing London into so many different districts; now let us look to the effects which every one must see with his eyes. I do not merely allude to the state of the streets, where no one can walk without getting into basins of mud; while those who drive in vehicles are made aware of holes in the streets by the severe jolts they receive. Nor do I allude merely to the roads, which are neglected till dangerous, and then macadamized until impassable. I allude to evils of greater magnitude. Conceive a new street laid down firmly and handed over to the parish vestry. No sooner is it paved, and the traffic of it begun, than down comes a water company who desires to lay down their pipes; the whole street is torn up, and the traffic stopped for a month. At length their operations are concluded; the pavement is relaid and the traffic resumed. This lasts not a week when a gas company takes up the pavement again to lay down their pipes, and for another month the public and the shopkeepers on both sides of the way suffer the greatest inconvenience. Again it is paved, and the traffic resumed. But after this severe ordeal the street, of course, is seriously impaired, and then the vestry steps in to repair it; so that the traffic is again stopped for the third time, and great expense is incurred. This is no hypothetical case. It is more than borne out by actual facts. I will mention one. The Metropolitan Board had determined to construct a model street-Southwark Street, in St. Saviour's. They had not sufficient powers, and determined to come to Parliament for the purpose. They did so. They proposed to construct a subway in which the pipes of the different water and gas companies might be laid. The Southwark and Vauxhall Water Company appeared before the Parliamentary Committee and fought the Metropolitan Board. The street, however, was made with a fine subway six feet high, and everyone expected that it would be safe from being broken up, and that the gas and water companies would be glad to make use of the subway. However, the street was not long completed before a water company gave notice to the vestry of their intention to break it up; and on being told that a subway was provided for receiving the pipes, they replied, "Oh, while working in the Committee-room we acquired a Parliamentary love of consistency, and, therefore, we cannot make use of the subway which we opposed in Parliament." The company then exerted their rights, and the street, which had been well made with concrete and granite, was, by the aid of powerful levers, broken up and destroyed. This was a difficult operation; for the street also was obdurate in its consistency. The fact is that these water and gas companies ought to be put under some controlling power. They are nothing but monopolies, which it was thought that we years ago had abolished. They each obtain a district, and within that district they supply inferior gas or impure water and charge a high price for it, and tyrannize over us at their pleasure. They are huge monopolies which we have set up to reign over us. If the gas or water they supply be bad, and you apply to the company, they laugh you to scorn, because they know that you can get it nowhere else. I will now refer to another point. St. James' Street, Piccadilly, happens to be partly in one parish and partly in another. Now, when the boundary line goes down the middle of a street the result is not so bad; but sometimes the boundary line goes obliquely across, and then great inconvenience is experienced from the want of concurrent action on the part of the two vestries. In some such cases, also, the boundary line goes unevenly or in a waving line. The consequence under these circumstances is, that when either parish chooses to pave their portion, the traffic of the street is stopped, and then perhaps a few months later the other vestry determine to pave, and the traffic is again stopped, and thus the inconvenience is prolonged. There was a case where a vestry did not choose to finish a new street in Islington, and the consequence was that in a short time there were ruts in it eighteen inches deep. Thus a conflict of authori ties occasions a permanent mischief. But other evils of a more ephemeral character often arise. Last January the snow fell so fast one Wednesday night, that in the morning it lay in the streets more than a foot in depth. Next day it was churned by the traffic into a dark unwholesome slush. In going to the Board of Trade on that occasion I had to pass through great puddles, which took me above my ankles. And yet if a man had been employed he could easily have kept the gutters and moval Acts are entirely ignored. In 1861 water-ways open, and the water would have there were only 391 cases of typhus in the run away. Every omnibus from the west fever hospitals; in 1862 the number was that day discharged its passengers at Re- 2,697, and of the attacked 1,334 died; in gent Circus, and let them plod their weary 1863 there were 2,112 cases; in 1864 there way to the City. Of cabs there were very were 3.610 cases, and in 1865 the number few; they drove tandem, and went at a was 3,400. Dr. Horace Jeafferson calcufoot's pace. In the night this sludgey lates that there were yearly 16,600 such ooze froze over; so that in the morning cases, and that the disease proved fatal there was a variation of smooth ice, and in 2,300 cases. This state of things is lumps of frozen snow, like icebergs, very caused to a great extent by there being difficult to surmount. The changes be no proper authority to put in force the tween snow and icebergs had an inter- Nuisances Removal Act. And why is rupted sway for three days; to the great this? Because the owners of typhus dens inconvenience of all cockneys. Yet, by the are vestrymen. In St. Pancras this year Metropolitan Local Management Act of the medical officer prepared a very able 1855" every vestry shall cause the foot-report, in which he pointed out the nests paths to be swept and cleansed;" but that of typhus which existed, and showed how is a duty the vestries never perform; it is the fever might be checked and cholera therefore requisite that there should be some warded off. In the midst of reading this general board of supervision for the whole report, up jumped a vestryman and moved, metropolis in order to preserve the streets as an amendment, that the report be not from being in a disgraceful condition, dan- received. The doctor was called impertigerous to passengers on foot, and in car-nent for bringing such a matter under the riages, and riders on horseback. In Paris a general board manages all these things, and the consequence is that Paris is always attended to in a proper and efficient manner. Many accidents take place in London from frost, though nothing can be easier than to collect the ashes from the ash-pits in the houses on each side, scatter them over the road, and thus render it safe. I will not enlarge on the architecture of the streets. There is a dull and dirty uniformity, occasionally relieved by a few incongruous elements of individual eccentricity. Neither will I say much with respect to the increased traffic of the streets; because every one is aware that he is liable to be delayed by a huge dray athwart the street, and that when so situated he has no means of beguiling the tedium but by listening to the different forms of imprecation of the drivers. These are, however, matters to which the Government should direct their attention. In 1864 no less than 232 persons were killed by carts, drays, and cabs; so that walking in London is more dangerous than travelling by the Brighton Railway. All this arises from the fact of there being no general ruling authority. It is a Babylonian anarchy which some persons worship as the basis of their liberty, and for which others entertain a maudlin sentiment under the name of local government. The cleansing of our streets by the vestries is most imperfectly performed. Some courts, streets, and lanes in London are mere fever dens, and the Nuisance ReLord Robert Montagu notice of the vestry, and in short he got nothing but objurgatory shrieks and vulgar vituperation for his pains. The truth is that the owners of these nests of typhus sat at the vestry board, and they would not join the medical officer in improving these districts. Now this is not self-government; but a want of government - an anarchy and scandal. Where self-government exists, that is, where the people really govern themselves, by all means foster and cherish it. But where the intelligent shrink from the trouble, the industrious hurry off to their money-making pursuits, then this vaunted self-government sinks so low that it falls upon the shoulders of those who feel a little importance in pretending to discharge its functions. The educated avoid it; and we are martyred for a sentiment, and inconvenienced for a social principle of Anglo-Saxon times. My notion is that evils should be removed wherever they are found (whether they are pollutions of rivers or stinks in streets), even at the cost of fine theories. I may be asked what I would propose. I would say, let the Metropolitan Board, or some one board, have an extended jurisdiction over the whole of the metropolis. It would then be an honour to belong to it. The minor boards need not be extinguished, but should be maintained in subjection to the general board to execute mere local duties. the skilled officers, as they are always badly chosen by mere numbers, should be nominated by the Government. I should All also like to see a Minister in the House | by a town council with jurisdiction extendwho should be directly responsible for the ing over the whole place. Whatever the good government of the metropolis, and local authority may be, if Parliament give for the supervision of all the municipali- power to a company to break up pavements ties and rivers in England. This, in fact, and lay pipes, the local authority must would be the plan adapted to the metro- submit to the exercise of powers granted polis, which I proposed last year for every by Parliament. It is very desirable that water-shed in England. I beg to ask the the attention of Committees of this House Secretary of State for the Home Depart- should be directed to the matter, so as to ment, Whether the Government proposes prevent them giving powers which may to legislate on this subject? override those of local authorities. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) has given notice that to-morrow he will move for a Select Committee to inquire into the local government and local taxation of the metropolis; and I hope the House will be disposed to agree to that Motion. I think this matter may be usefully inquired into by that Committee. It is not easy to devise a scheme to put an end to the various jurisdictions of London; but I trust the result of the appointment of a Committee will be that a feasible plan will be proposed for obviating the evils resulting from a multiplicity of jurisdictions. SIR GEORGE GREY: Sir, it is quite true, as the noble Lord has stated, that when a Motion was made on this subject last Session I objected to the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the facts, because, as I said, they were notorious, and every one knew the great inconvenience resulting from the multitude of local authorities in London. I did not state that it would be inexpedient to inquire into the best modes of remedying the existing defects. But I stated that my own impres sion was that it would be desirable to give a more extended jurisdiction to the Metropolitan Board of Works, to enable them to superintend the paving, cleansing, and lighting of streets, not by superseding the existing local bodies, but by exercising a superintendence over them, and seeing that they perform efficiently all those duties which the law casts upon them, and which are now most imperfectly discharged. During the recess I have been in communication with the Metropolitan Board of Works, which appointed a committee to consider this question. The result of the deliberations of that committee has been that they were not prepared to recommend the consolidation of all existing boards and vestries; but that they are favourable to some extension of the appellate or superintending jurisdiction of the Board which already exists in some cases, such as those as to streets where one side was in one and the other in another jurisdiction. With regard to such streets they have already power to interfere and compel unity of action. That power has been exercised, I think, in St. James' Street, to prevent public inconvenience. With regard to streets being torn up by gas companies, I do not think that arises from any defect in London as distinguished from any other place. Any large city or borough may be subjected to the same inconvenience, because the companies obtain from Parliament powers which they exercise in defiance of local authority. I suppose that the same thing may be done in Manchester or Liverpool, although each place is governed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES. (In the Committee.) SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he hoped the noble Lord (Lord Clarence Paget) did not intend to go into the Estimates at that late hour of the evening (twenty minutes past nine o'clock). It was not probable the noble Lord would obtain a vote that night. LORD CLARENCE PAGET: Sir, in rising to move the consideration of the Navy Estimates for 1866-7, I should have no right, under ordinary circumstances, to claim the indulgence of the Committee, because the performance of the duty for the eighth time ought, ordinarily, to present no great difficulty. To-night, however, I approach the subject under some oppression. First of all, I miss, on both sides of the House, many familiar faces of those who used to take part in these discussions, and thereby render very great service to the navy Mr. Lindsay, Mr. George Bentinck, Sir Frederick Smith, and many others. I cannot but regret their absence on the present occasion. Another cause of greater oppression and Navy Estimates than that they should be published separately. The Navy Estimates for 1866-7 amount, in the gross, to £10,388,153. They are the same as the Estimates for the present year, for I will not venture to call a sum of £4,000 a reduction. If anyone, however, were to suppose that the ordinary naval expenditure of the com difficulty is, that in past Sessions, when I have had the honour, on the part of the Government, to conduct these debates, I have always had the assistance of the great statesman who is gone from among us. Few in this House and few in the navy appreciated the extent of his knowledge of every detail connected with the navy, and the extraordinary interest he took in every-ing year would be equal to that of the prething which had reference to the welfare of the seaman. Under all these circumstances, I am sure the Committee will give me every indulgence. The Estimates for the year 1866-7 are very much changed in many respects, and I am afraid the change will involve hon. Members in some difficulty when they attempt to make a comparison of the Estimates with those for the present year. In accordance with the recommendation of a Committee of this House, the Estimates for 1866-7 are altered as respects the Votes having reference to the dockyards in several particulars. Hitherto the salaries of officers and superintendents have been in one Vote, and the wages of artificers and others in another Vote. The Committee wisely, v, I think, recommended that the whole expenditure of each dockyard and each victualling yard, and of all other naval establishments should be shown distinctly under the Vote for each. The Committee will, therefore, find that the figures of the Votes are very much changed. For the convenience of hon. Members who may wish to make comparisons, I have added in the appendix the Vote in the old form. The Committee I have alluded to also advised that many items in the Estimates which were under certain Votes should be transferred to other Votes, as being the more appropriate places for them. An instance of the difficulty of comparison which this change will involve is afforded by the Transport Vote, which shows an increase for 1866-7 of £82,208, whereas there is really a decrease of £47,104. I will explain that when I come to it; but my object now is to inform the Committee that, with the best intention to do everything that can be done to make these matters clear, I am afraid there will be some difficulty owing to these changes. Still further, to facilitate the understanding of the Estimates, I have added at the end a table of contents; and I have also inserted two Returns which I have previously placed before the House as single papers. One is a list of ships afloat and building, and the other is a programme of shipbuilding works. I thought it was more convenient that these should be attached to the Lord Clarence Paget sent year, he would do a great injustice to the Department, because, in truth, there is a considerable reduction, as I shall show, upon the ordinary expenditure. I will state at once to the Committee how this matter stands. They will remember that for several years past there has been a great and a proper demand that the dockyards should be placed in an efficient state as regards basin accommodation, the provision of additional facilities for the building of armour-ships, and various other purposes connected with the matériel of the navy. This House resolved last year that we should put our dockyards in a proper state, and that that should be done, not by mere annual Votes alone, but by a Act of Parliament to empower the Government to enter into contracts for the completion of these great works. The result of that is that, in accordance with the terms of the Dockyard Extensions Act, the Vote for the Dockyards will be increased during the coming year by a sum of £350,000 over the Vote for the present year, and I have to inform the Committee that, so far from my being able to hold out a hope of any reductions in the Vote for New Works, there is a certainty, as I think, during the next three years of a considerable increase. The Votes this year for New Works under the Act of Parliament, amounts to upwards of £800,000, and must during the next three years amount to upwards of £1,000,000. With regard to the other Votes you will find that there is throughout the Estimates a fair reduction in consequence of a certain diminution in the number of men and in the Votes for Stores, the only increase of any importance being in the Vote for the Dockyards. And now, Sir, with regard to the Vote for the personnel of the navy. We take this year, as I will presently show, a somewhat smaller force of men, and consequently our Vote for the personnel of the navy will be less during the year 1866-7 than it was during the present year. And here, again, I want to call the particular attention of the Committee to what our prospects are in future years. Now, it is all very well on. the expenditure on the personnel is in round numbers £48,000,000, and upon the matériel of the navy the figure is nearly £47,000,000. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON: Since when?] From 1855-6—that is, eleven years-I give you the proportion of the cost of the personnel to the matériel. It is as forty-eight to forty-seven, or very nearly equal. I will now proceed to show the House what is proposed to be taken for the year 1866-7. We ask you for the coming year for the personnel £4,173,550, for the matériel we only ask £2,586,653, that is, we are asking for our matériel a very much smaller proportion than the average on the eleven years. In 1865-6 we took, in round numbers, £4,500,000 for our personnel, and for our matériel £3,000,000. to talk of reducing the naval expenditure, | If you have so many men you must but the fact is, that I cannot hold out any have so many ships, and if you have so hopes of a reduction in that which princi- many ships in commission, you must have pally governs the expenditure of the navy so many more in reserve, and others to -the number of seamen of the fleet. We replace them when they are worn out. The have carried on during the last two years Committee will see, therefore, that there a gradual reduction of our seamen to what is a direct relation between these two has come to be a very considerable dimi- classes of Votes, and that they really nution, but if we are to make the naval depend very much on one another. Well, force which we have afloat adequate to the the expenditure on men since the year demands upon it, that reduction cannot go 1855-6 up to the next year-including I have a paper here which, if hon. these Estimates now before the Committee Gentlemen wish me to quote from, will show that, so far from there being a prospect of a further diminution of our fleet, we are pressed from all quarters of the globe for additional assistance. We are pressed from China. We are told that the seas there are infested with pirates, and large demands are made upon us for additional forces. In Japan, they tell us that, in order to carry out the treaties which have been made with the Tycoon, we must be prepared to have a large force in the inland sea. In the River Plate, Chili, Peru, the presence of ships is asked for, and let it be remembered that most of all these demands come at the desire of our merchants. In short, such are the calls upon the Admiralty, that I confess I should be deceiving the Committee if I were to hold out a prosI have given this Return, pect of any further reduction in the num- which I think extremely valuable, and ber of men. Now, that being the case, let which I would honestly recommend to the us take a glance over the future expendi- attention of the hon. Gentleman, because ture of the navy. Setting aside altogether I think it a fair guide to the probable Public Works, which have no reference to expenditure of future years. I will tell the number of men, and which, when they you why we have asked so small a sum are completed will, no doubt, cause a great for matériel during the present and coming reduction in the expenditure under that year. We have made great exertions durVote; setting aside also all the other ing the last five years in constructing Votes-the Non-effective Votes and the armour-plated ships. The fleet may now Vote for the Transport of Troops, which be said to be in a very fair condition as have nothing to do with the navy-I think regards the wants of the country, and it will be seen from a very important paper it is that which has enabled us grawhich I should like to quote to the Com- dually to lower these Votes for the mittee, and which will be found of very matériel. It is also because we had great value, that the expenditure for future years does not appear to afford much hope of reduction unless our forces at sea are to be diminished. Now, the expenditure for the personnel of the navy from the year 1855-6 down to the coming year, including everything which is due to that expenditurethat is to say, the pay, the victualling, the medical stores, and various other things has been set down on one side. On the other side I have put together the Votes for the matériel of the navy, which includes dockyards, stores, and, in short, every cost of the ships in which we put the men. a good stock of timber, which we laid in by our providence, instead of our improvidence, as was supposed by some hon. Gentlemen at the time. It was that valuable stock of timber which has enabled us at present to keep the Votes for the matériel so low; but I desire to express my deliberate opinion that, unless the force of ships in commission is reduced, this sum will in future years be inadequate to the maintenance of our matériel, indeed the Return I have quoted from distinctly points to this result. Votes 1 and 2 are for the pay and victualling of the fleet, and |