He dented; and it was their interest to pre- | spoken upon the Motion of the hon. Memvent the construction of independent lines, ber, but he thought he should thereby and to retain the powers they already have strained the rules of the House. He possessed. He (Mr. Whalley) considered had now to submit what, perhaps, might that competition ought to be encouraged, be considered the other half of this interand that the same system should be adopted national question. His Question to the with respect to railways which had been right hon. Gentleman was, If any and found to answer in other cases-namely, what representations have been made by the delegation of these matters of detail Her Majesty's Government to the Governto a tribunal properly constituted. As an ment of the United States in reference to illustration of the extent to which it pre- the Fenian organization in America, and vailed, he might mention that after a Re- more especially as to the employment of solution that no Private Bill relating to United States officers, the issue of bonds railways should be opposed on the ground of the so-called Irish Republic, and the that the proposed line would enter into threats made to levy war upon the docompetition with an existing line had minions of Her Majesty by that organizabeen carried in the Committee of 1863, it tion? And he also moved for all papers had, owing to the influence to which he connected with the subject, in order that referred, been rescinded. Such was the the House might know the true position unsatisfactory nature of the existing system of affairs and ascertain whether or not the that a leading counsel before Parliamentary Government had given, as he hoped, their Committees was heard to say that he never serious attention to so pressing and serious had a case so bad as to lead him to despair a matter. He had received a friendly hint of success, nor one so good as to make him from an hon. Friend who usually sat in feel confident that he would not fail. that part of the House to the effect that The question was one of great national it was undesirable to raise this Question importance, and the Government ought, for fear of causing irritation in the United he thought, to take it up in the national States, and because the Fenian movement interest. would, if let alone, at last die out. feared it would not die out of itself, and that it would have to be repressed. He was not likely to say anything which could lead to irritation. He had visited. MR. WATKIN said, that he had post- the United States frequently. He had poned the Question and Motion of which considerable interest in its industry and he had given notice till to-night in de-physical progress, and he was proud to ference to the wishes of hon. Members count many citizens of that great country anxious to complete the discussion of the as his personal friends. The people of Cattle Plague Bill, and he did not regret this country were an outspoken people, it, for in the interval the House had and those of the United States were not learned from high authority-namely, less outspoken, and they each honoured that of the right hon. Gentleman the the other for the quality. He did not beHome Secretary, that the Fenian conspi-lieve that anything could be, or ever had racy was of American and not of Irish been, gained to the cause of truth and right origin, and that it was not countenanced by the concealment of the true opinions of by the Government of the United States. one great people as to the conduct or omisThis announcement was no doubt made sions of another. On the contrary, the upon definite information, and he was language of mystery always led to misapanxious that the House and the coun-prehension of its motives, and that which try should be re-assured by that infor- frank and honest representation would mation being officially made known. On easily set right grew into dimensions of the other hand, the postponement had difficulty and danger. He felt sure, thereplaced him in this position, that the sub-fore, that the people and the Government ject of the remarks he should have to of the United States, so far from being make, though analogous to that so ably offended, would be glad to know the real raised by the hon. Member, had been opinion of this country, as reflected by divided from it by a discussion on rail- that House, upon the pending movement. ways and a reply about the oyster fish- He had recently been in the United States. eries. He could, no doubt, have imi-He was at Philadelphia when the Fenian tated the example afforded him and have (Congress was sitting there in October last. FENIANISM IN AMERICA. QUESTION. Mr. Whalley "That its ramifications existed not only in this country, but in the States of America; that the supplies of money and of arms for the purposes of a general insurrection were being collected, not only here, but on the other side of the Atlantic; and, finally, that the object of this confederation was the overthrow of the Queen's authority, the separation of this country from Great Britain, the destruction of our present Constitution, the establishment of some democratic or military des He was in New York when the head- the rights of American citizenship. Durquarters of the Fenian organization were ing the constant public discussions in removed from Duane Street to one of the America many things were said which largest houses in Union Square, which completely disclosed the objects of the was set up as what they called the Fe- Fenian organization. He had with him nian "Capitol," and was surmounted by many reports, including the report of a their adopted flag. He was also in Canada meeting of delegates to the Fenian Conwhen rumours, more or less serious, ar- gress, and, without troubling the House rived of intended Fenian raids into British with the speeches, he might mention that territory, and knew that preparations had the general result was that the speakers to be made to resist attack. A few days avowed that they had met to "complete" after he left Washington a Fenian deputa- their organization, the object being to tion, headed by Colonel Roberts, waited "liberate❞ Ireland from the Government upon-he hoped he might say intruded of Her Majesty, and do so, if need be, by themselves upon-President Johnson at force of arms. But he would picture what the "White House," the official residence the organization was by quoting other and of the President of the United States, to more definite evidence. First of all, Mr. thank him, on behalf of the Fenian Con- Justice Keogh, in charging the jury at gress of Philadelphia, for the liberation of the first of the recent trials in Ireland, John Mitchell. The deputation said that described Fenianism as follows. That that congress contained delegates from no learned Judge said— less than thirty States and territories of the American Union affiliated together for the liberation of Ireland. Now, the result of the observations he had been able to make convinced him of three thingsfirst, that the Fenian organization was exclusively and without doubt or question of American origin, being, in fact, a continuation of the old "Phoenix" So-potism, and a general division of every description cieties; second, that it was not sympa- of property as the result of a successful civil war." thized in by native Americans at large -still less by the native American officers And certainly the evidence adduced at of the United States army; and third, that it did not arise from or exist in those immense portions of the continent over which, happily, the British Crown held sway and the British flag floated. Now, while the deliberations of the Fenians were called secret, their object and the mode by which they sought to accomplish them were known and avowed. No one in the United States could plead that he did not know that there existed a vast ramification all over the States, having war with a peaceful ally for its avowed object. With regard to the congress at Philadelphia, he might mention that one peculiar feature was the presence of a large number of officers in the employment and pay of the Government of the United States. He had got in his hand a list of a very small committee of the congress, and yet it contained the names of no less than ten volun-dollars, and 1,000 dollars. In the centre will be teer officers belonging to the United States. Three of these were generals, five were \colonels, one was a captain, and the last one was a lieutenant. [Mr. ROEBUCK: What countrymen are they?] They were Irish-Americans, availing themselves of these trials, and the convictions of the conspirators which followed, fully proved the main points of the description. But he would not rely upon even this alone. le would, with the permission of the House, read a description of the Fenians given by the Fenians themselves. It was an extract from the New York World— their organ-and it stated— "There is in this city (New York) a military engineering class of 100, taught by an engineer formerly on M'Clellan's staff in the peninsular campaign. Subscriptions are handed in to large amounts every week from all parts of the country. A bank account is kept by the Brotherhood in its own name, and a clerical force is employed to keep the accounts and attend to the correspondcompanies, as Colonel Roberts stated in his speech last night, are printing 8 per cent bonds in the name of the Irish Republic,' one and indivisible. They will be ready next week in denominations of ence of the Brotherhood. One of the bank note 10 dollars, 20 dollars, 50 dollars, 100 dollars, 500 a figure of Liberty drawing a sword, and at the sides vignettes of Emmett and Lincoln. It is confidently hoped by the leaders that these will be taken up very rapidly, and that large orders will come from the country and from the West. It is stated that negotiations are pending for the purchase of eight ocean steamers, each warranted to carry 1,000 men, with the certainty almost that pended to stir up sedition and disaffection the purchase will be made before the 1st of Oc-in different parts of Her Majesty's dotober. It is further said that there have been minions. This accounted for much, and immense purchases of arms from the Government by parties who are supposed to be identified with the Fenians, and that propositions for further purchases are now under consideration. At the Fenian headquarters in Duane Street they are continually boxing up muskets, but of course no information is given as to where they are sent. There are twenty-seven circles in New York, and Colonel John O'Mahoney is the head centre of the organization throughout the country." It was stated also with respect to the Fenians, by an independent and impartial resident authority known to many Members of that House, that in defence of the loyalty of Ireland he would ask whether a systematic agency and expenditure such as now disclosed would not lead to treasonable organization either in Ireland or wherever ignorance Here were the and poverty existed? tempters, and it was the duty of the Governments on both sides of the Atlantic to punish them. Here was the real source of the evil in Ireland. He meant to say that the Irish people were being preyed upon and seduced from their allegiance "There is a Secretary of War, a Secretary of by American gold; and as long as the the Navy, and most of the usual officers of a Government neglected to deal with this regularly constituted Government. The society question at its source, and were content is known to be in treaty with a gunmaker for the purchase of a large quantity of arms which he simply to prosecute a few misguided men bought of the Government after the war. The in Ireland, their efforts to stop the moveagents of the Fenians have been in Washingtonment would fail. There was, in his humwithin the last fortnight, endeavouring to ascer- ble opinion, a plain line of duty before tain whether Mr. Welles, the Secretary of the them; it was for the right hon. GentleNavy, will sell them any of the vessels for which the Government has no further use. Whether they men to show how far they had fulfilled succeeded in seeing Mr. Welles or not I cannot it. He would now turn to a more cheersay; but it is well known that they have had ing aspect of the case. To show that Fefinterviews with Mr. Stanton. These facts, taken nianism was hardly known to exist in the together, and many other circumstances which it British North American possessions, he would be too tedious to repeat, but which are well known here, prove at least that the Fenian organwould quote from a letter dated Christization is now a power, and one which cannot mas Day, 1865, to the Lieutenant Gobe scattered by the arrest of a few of its members vernor of New Brunswick by a distinin Ireland." guished Irishman and a distinguished Catholic, Dr. Conolly, Catholic Archbishop of Halifax, Nova Scotia. Dr. Conolly said That was the representation of the able and well-informed correspondent of The Times, whom no one would suspect of inaccuracy or exaggeration. He would now say a few words with regard to the extent of the Fenian organization, and the means by which it was maintained. He found by certain documents in his possession that the organization had raised within the last .seven years 5,000,000 dollars, and that from September the 10th to October the 29th, 1865, their receipts amounted to 120,650 dollars 22 cents, and the expenditure to over 100,000 dollars. On October 28 there were in the United States 613 - circles, with an average membership of 300 persons each, or about 184,000 in all. He would now endeavour to show how the money was expended; because, with respect to Fenian development in Ireland, it had been said that the discontent of the Irish people proceeded entirely from their grievances. He called the special attention of the House to the item he was about to quote. The first item in the expenditure was 62,567 dollars for "envoys," from October 31, 1865, to January 9, 1866, and that meant that £40,000 a year was exMr. Watkin "On the occasion of my recent visit to the United States, many of these poor deluded people talked as flippantly and confidently of taking all British America in the course of this winter and holding it as if they already had the title deeds in their pockets. If they come on the strength of their own resources, it will indeed be a laughable scare; and from what is now occurring at New York, we may easily foresee the glorious denouement. Two millions of Protestants and eighteen hundred thousand Catholics, who have mothers, wives, and daughters, happy homes and free altars, and a Government of their own choice, will meet them as they would the freebooter and the assassin, with knife in hand, on the trail of his victim. From their success we have nothing to expect but bloodshed, rapine, and anarchy, and the overthrow of God's religion; for all this is inscribed on their banners." This was not the time to enter upon the 6th section of the Neutrality Act of 1818, which provides that— "If any person shall, within the territory or jurisdiction of the United States, begin or set on foot, or provide or prepare, the means for any military expedition or enterprize, to be carried on from thence against the territory or dominion of any foreign prince or State, or any colony, district, or people, with whom the United States are at peace, every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor, and shall be fined not exceeding 3,000 dollars or imprisoned not more than three years. The indictment by the Crand Jury was procured at the instance of United States District Attorney Dickinson, on intimation received from the Secretary of State, who was, of course, directed in the matter by the President." for a moment turn to an American authority, for he thought it much better to quote American authorities than either French or English., He would read an extract from Wheaton's International Law, page 499 ings, so open and done avowedly with the object of stirring up a war with this country, had been treated as they ought to be treated by the Government of the United States, with whom we were at peace; and whether Her Majesty's Government were warranted in tolerating such an outrage on our national rights and so much opposed to every feeling that ought to subsist between the two nations. Recently the United States had taken a step which seemed to him to redound in every way to their credit; and having had the honour of interviews with President Johnson and with many of the leading men in the United States, he thought he could trace the President's own hand in the circumstance he was He contended that the Fenian combinaabout to allude to; and, when he re- tion was an undoubted breach of the pubmembered the conduct of President John-lic law of the United States. He would son with regard to the recent raid upon Mexican territory, and his dismissal of General Sweeney from the service of the United States, he could not help entertaining a suspicion that our own Government might be at fault. He would say also that statements which had been made in this country regarding the President were premature and misapplied, and that there was not a man living who was more desirous to perform every international obligation, or more earnestly labouring to heal the open wounds of his country, or more determined to preserve a peaceful alliance with this country. He felt assured that the President regarded this alliance as essential to the progress of the Anglo-Saxon race and to the peace and progress of the world. Now, the step he alluded to affected Spain-a country with which the United States were at peace, but with which they had little else in common. The disputes between Chili and Spain had led to the preparation of an expedition against Spain from the shores of America, and Senor M'Kenna, the Chilian resident in New York, with the aid of American citizens, had undoubtedly copied the Fenians by preparing to fit out a hostile expedition. Now, dealing on behalf of Spain, what had been done? Why, Senor M'Kenna was arrested by a primary order from the President, given through the Secretary of State to the district marshal, and on the 6th of this month of February M'Kenna was brought before the Grand Jury of New York, a true bill was found against him, and he was at this moment in prison. The indictment was found against him under the "By their treaties with several of the belligerent Powers, treaties forming part of the law of the land, they had established a state of peace with them. But without appealing to treaties, they were at peace with them all by the law of nature; for by the natural law, man is at peace with man till some aggression is committed, which by the same law authorizes one to destroy another, as his enemy. For the citizens of the United States, then, to commit murders and depredations on the members of other nations, or to combine to do much against the laws of the land as to murder it, appeared to the American Government as or rob, or combine to murder or rob, their own citizens; and as much to require punishment, if done within the limits where they had a territohad a personal jurisdiction, that is to say, one rial jurisdiction-or on the high seas, where they which reached their own citizens only; this being an appropriate part of each nation, on an element where each has a common jurisdiction." The same distinguished writer went on to say- "The same principles were afterwards incorporated in a law of Congress passed in 1794, and revised and re-enacted in 1818, by which it is declared to be a misdemeanor for any person within the jurisdiction of the United States to augment the force of any armed vessel, belonging to one foreign Power at war with another Power, with whom they are at peace; or to prepare any military expedition against the territories of any foreign nation with whom they are at peace; or to hire or enlist troops or seamen for foreign military or naval service; or to be concerned in fitting out any vessel to cruise or commit hostilities in foreign service, against a nation at peace with them; and the vessel, in this latter case, is made subject to forfeiture." Now, he confidently put it to the House, Government of the United States was too this being the law and these the principles sagacious not to perceive that if they once upon which that law was founded, that permitted the turbulent and restless fothe Fenian association was an illegal one reign element which their society conand its members misdemeanants. If he re- tained to violate their own laws with impuquired to add another fact, it would be to nity, if not with encouragement, they were quote the speech of a gentleman who was perilling their own public liberty by uncalled the Head Centre for the State of lermining public order. They were giving New York, in which he stated distinctly way to a licence which at last might overand publicly that before very long priva- come them, and holding out temptations teers would be fitted out, with the view and affording precedents most dangerous of preying on the commerce of England. to the future. In fact, the only danger Taking all these facts together, surely to the permanence of their institutions there was enough to convince any man was the existence of this element, which that to say nothing of technical obliga- had no ties to the past or to the future, tions-all the high obligations of honour and which loved their land only for the and good association between nation and sake of the lawlessness they might exnation had, in the unchecked operations ercise within the Union. For their sake, of the Fenians, been most signally out-then, and for ours, he asked why wise and raged. Well, they found that in the case just laws should not be enforced, and why of the attempt to make war on the com- Great Britain and the States should be paratively weak and unimportant Power placed in antagonism for want of that of Spain summary, immediate, instant enforcement? He would hope for the justice had been done; and with regard best. He trusted the right hon. Gentleto the Emperor of the French, notwith- man would be able to assure the House standing the provocation of the presence that Government had exhausted, should of a French army in Mexico, contrary to it have been necessary, every means of the traditional views and to the policy of representation and remonstrance; but bethe fathers of the American Republic, ex-yond that he hoped that it would turn planation had been given. How, then, out that the Government at Washington, was it that in our case the proper posi- amidst all the peculiar political difficulties tion had not been taken? How was it with which the question was, as he fully adthat, after seven years, an organization mitted, surrounded, had loyally dealt with which raised 5,000,000 dollars in that pe- us in making efforts to put down this evil. riod for the purpose of making war on For he prayed that nothing might arise this country had been allowed to go on from this, or any other cause whatever, without remonstrance or interference on to check the co-operation of the two counthe part of Her Majesty's Government? tries in all that promoted liberty and civilHe might be told, perhaps, by the right ization, or to disturb the maintenance of hon. Gentleman who would follow him, brotherhood and kindly relations between and who, he hoped, would deal with this them. question fully and in perfect frankness, that he was casting undue suspicion on the Government, and that they had used every means in their power to put an end to this state of things. He trusted that would appear to be the case. He would not believe that this country was singled out by the United States for an exceptional and insulting denial of justice; and he still hoped that the Government would be able to show that British interests had not been left to take care of themselves. At all events, the people of America would learn what was the opinion of the House of Commons. Let him say, in conclusion, that in dealing with this question, they were not dealing with British interests alone, but with the interests and the honour of the United States also. The Mr. Watkin THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I feel it to be a matter of public duty, and I think it is one of considerable public importance, that I should immediately follow the hon. Gentleman. I should consider that I failed in my duty if I allowed any other Member to interpose. I will despatch very shortly, obeying reluctantly the somewhat confused and confusing law of the House, any reference that may be necessary to matters which were raised in the earlier part of the evening. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Darby Griffith) made a proposal that the rates of postage on newspapers should be reduced, in consequence of the low rates at which they were carried by the railways. He mentioned that newspapers were in some instances carried by railways from station |