NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

HEARINGS

BEFORE A

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS

UNITED STATES SENATE

SIXTY-NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

Pursuant to S. Res. 347

43213-25-PT 1--9

125

NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

SATURDAY, APRIL 18, 1925

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in the hearing room of the committee in the Capitol, Senator Robert N. Stanfield (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order and we will proceed.

STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD C. FINNEY, FIRST ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

The CHAIRMAN. Judge Finney, I have prepared a memorandum of some things that we would like to take up with your department. First, we will want information relative to the area of unreserved public domain in each State; classes of land and stock-carrying capacity of the public domain in each State. Whatever you have on that. I think you have a bulletin on that now, have you not? Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The names and areas of Indian reservations in each State; the amount received from grazing or leases on each reserration; the number and classes of livestock so grazed in 1924; the rate per acre or per head; that is, where you are receiving a rental. Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you receiving a rental from reclamation withdrawals?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. There are several areas withdrawn on the first form reclamation act that are leased and for which rentals are received.

The CHAIRMAN. It occurred to the committee that you have had Some experience there that might be interesting.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes; we will get that data also.

The CHAIRMAN. The rate per acre or per head. I think you have not adopted the per capita charge, but per acre.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. That is true of the reclamation grazing, at least.

The CHAIRMAN. We are going to be interested in the per acre charge as compared with the per capita charge for livestock. Senator CAMERON. You lease at so much per acre, instead of per head?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes; the charge I have in mind is so

much

per acre.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you are leasing for 7,000, or 10,000, or something of that sort?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. The use of a given area of lands for a period of years.

Senator CAMERON. That is, for the land on the public domain, but on the Indian reservations so much per head?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. I am not so familiar with that, but I think there is a charge per head. But that information I would be glad to get for you.

The CHAIRMAN. Information regarding both the livestock and the charge. The area of land reserved for national parks in each State.

The area of land in each State reserved for other purposes.

The number of homestead filings of each class in each State in 1922, 1923, and 1924.

The number of entries in each class and by States that should hav been completed but were not completed in 1922, 1923, and 1924.

That is just a brief summary of some of the information we would like to obtain, and I will furnish you with a copy of this.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. We would be very glad to furnis that information, or any other information that the committee may

desire.

The CHAIRMAN. Yesterday we placed in the record a copy of the tentative bill that you sent to this committee pertaining to the leasing of the public domain for grazing purposes.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes, sir. Now, if I may, I woul like to make just a little preliminary statement. I may cover som data you have called for here.

I would like to open my statement by saying that according t the records of the General Land Office there was, on July 1, 1924 186,604,000 acres of unappropriated and unreserved public lands i the United States proper. Of that amount, in round number: 129,000,000 acres had been surveyed, and about 58,000,000 acres ha not yet been surveyed.

In the Territory of Alaska we have 349,851,000 acres of unreserve and unappropriated public lands.

We have 19 national parks, 30 national monuments under the juri diction of the Department of the Interior.

We have 25 reclamation projects, as you know, and several other in contemplation.

The total number of Indian reservations, including small agencie is 210. The total acreage in Indian reservations is 71,992,067 acre As you are aware, in 1920 Congress passed a leasing law, whic applies to oil, gas, coal, oil shale, phosphate, and sodium.

În 1917 a potash leasing law was passed. Other minerals, such gold, silver, and so on, are disposed of under the mining law of 187 with amendments.

In my opinion, the remaining public domain is chiefly valuab for three purposes the principal financial value, I think, would found in the minerals and the receipts there from under the gener mining laws and the leasing act.

Next, possibly, would be the irrigable and irrigated areas, whi are subject to reclamation under the general laws passed by Co gress, and also by the States, under what is known as the Carey A

And the third principal value-and this is not in conflict with the other two, because it relates to lands that are not susceptible of irrigation and the use will not interfere with the mineral development-is for grazing. And in terms of acres the grazing area or areas cover, of course, the major part of the acreage which I have mentioned.

Development for minerals or mining, either under the general land laws or under the leasing laws, will not interfere with grazing use, because, as you gentlemen know, the miner or oil driller occupies a comparatively small portion of the surface in his operations. The coal-mining and mineral development is done usually in shafts or tunnels under the ground and does not interfere at all with the surface. So that a grazing act, if passed, need not interfere at all with the development of these mineral resources. Nor need it interfere at all with the rights of way across the areas for canals for irrigation and power.

I have rather an interesting table showing the receipts from the disposal of public lands. It covers a period of 10 years, from 1915 to 1924. In 1915 the receipts from public lands-this includes purchase moneys, bonuses, rentals, royalties, and fees and commissionswas $3,838,317.23. In 1919 the receipts had gone to $2,915,892.42. After the passage of the general leasing law in 1921, the receipts went up to over $13,000,000. Last year our receipts from public lands were $16,000,000 in round numbers.

If I may, I will insert this table.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be inserted. (The table is as follows:)

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. The total receipts under the several leasing acts, as I recall them, including the general mineral leasing act, the potash leasing act, and the Alaska coal leasing act, up to December 31, 1924, have been $44,905,508.

That amount has been distributed, pursuant to the law, as follows: To the States within which the minerals were produced, $14,851,604; to the reclamation fund, $20,463,536; to the United States Treasury. $2,746,093.

I will insert this little table if agreeable.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be inserted.

(The table is as follows:)

The total receipts of the department to December 31, 1924, under the several leasing acts were as follows:

The proceeds under the general mineral leasing act have been distributed as follows: To the States within which the minerals were produced, $14,851,604; to the reclamation fund, $20,463,536; to the United States Treasury, $9,546,093.