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there were protesters and 600 people divided on Indians, one side of the room and non-Indians on the other side. I have to very frankly tell you it was, I think it was the most volatile hearing I've ever been in. I kept thinking throughout the time that we can pass all kinds of laws, but you can't force tolerance, brotherhood, or love and understanding, no matter what your path and terms of the law is.

I kept thinking there has got to be a better way than just try to pass legislation, which you have a winner and a loser. And these extreme voices on both sides sitting down at the same table sharing ideas that both Indian cultures and non-Indian cultures can benefit and help everyone's children.

I certainly appreciate your statement and your interest in this. I note that you have had a serious interest in trying to help Indian people.

Let me make one comment, too, that we keep these hearings open for 2 weeks after the testimony. So anyone who is not on the panel who wants to submit something for the record to be included to be studied, we certainly will do that. We appreciate it.

And in addition to that, we have about 10 or more witnesses so we will have to limit the time a little bit. And I was going through the testimony and I noticed some had 30 or 40 pages of testimony, probably much too extensive than we'll be able to hear verbally. So if you could abbreviate your comments, and we'll keep all the testimony in the record and go over all the testimony, I would appreciate it. And this little light in front of me here, it kind of reminds you when we need to move on to the next person.

With that, we will start the first panel. Phillip Martin, nice to see you, Chief. A good friend of mine. Marge Anderson, also a good friend, glad to see you here. Bud Mason, John Sunchild, and James T. Martin, all chairmen or executive directors or leaders in the Indian community. We will go ahead and start with you, Chief Martin, as I know you have a plane to catch and you are on a short schedule.

STATEMENT OF PHILLIP MARTIN, CHIEF, MISSISSIPPI BAND OF CHOCTAW INDIANS, PHILADELPHIA, MS

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. I have a statement and in that statement it has everything that we're doing or concerned about and some of the progress that we have been able to make through the economic development.

I strongly believe in a strong, stable tribal government that has control of its affairs, whether it be resources or human resources. And also these same people should respond to development to their community. And we're talking about, I'm talking about business and industry. There is a big gap between the tribal tribes and industry, those two never meet. They have to meet somewhere and they might find that they have common interests, but there is not that particular avenue at this time.

And I think that would be something that policymakers would need to consider because if you don't know any one of the persons, chances are you wouldn't talk to them, but opportunity is out there

Many people say tribes cannot operate economic development or business or even industry, but that's not so. A lot of people, a lot of tribes are already involved in some of this. I happen to be one of those tribes that I believe that the way to survive and maintain the culture is to develop a reservation economy and that's what we've been working on for the last almost 30 years. And it's not an easy job to do that. You really have to have commitment, commitment from your tribe, your local community and commitment from government as well.

I think our Government has a role to play and I'm not going to define that. But they certainly have that. And so if you don't have a reservation economy, chances are good that you're going to lose your culture. Your best people are going to leave the reservation. And you just have a place called reservation. And so that is why early on I found that out that nobody is going to have me, nobody is going to promote me, nobody is go to do anything for me. I have to do it as a tribal leader. And we started working with a small contract back in 1979, I think, about $1 million-contract. And today we have over $300,000-$300 million-these numbers are getting too big, $300 million, the economy. And we run our own schools, we run our own hospital, law and order, social service, everything that's there on the reservation is under tribal control.

So if we're going to practice that determination and if we mean business about self-determination, then you have to make it work for you. Nobody can make it work for you except your own tribe. And we can-I have a lot of experience in this in dealing with different companies. We can be helpful but some sort of procedures need to be developed here on how do you get industry? Who do you go see? These types of things, but any industry itself has a system that they have minority programs, that sometimes it is a good start, that is where we started.

Now, we deal directly with the industry. We have got many obstacles against us. And just to mention a few, sometimes tribes themselves are not disposed to bring industry or business into the reservation and, of course, the Federal Government is not doing anything to help the tribe to bring in those kinds of jobs.

But in legislation, the taxation of private enterprises and private casinos is not good. It's not in the best interest of the country I don't think because, finally, with the revenues that we generate, we're buying things that we needed a long time that Government wasn't able to provide, so that would be a big mistake if Congress passed an anti-tax on tribal governments. Because we're like any government, we provide services, all kinds of services to the members and we reinvest if we have anything left over. We invest to expand our economy or bring in new economy and make investment for rainy days, so to speak.

Those kinds of things that we're doing that if taxation and commitment and Senator Gorton's legislation should become effective, then I believe that's what you would call, maybe that would for me, that would take my incentive away and probably all of the industry we have in place would be uncompetitive, so that we would be out of business. And I believe that that's a big concern through the

And then another thing is we have too much regulation on our backs that prevents us sometimes. Those kinds of things, it's not good for business. When we are making a business deal, you have got to make it like today and you have got to keep the commitments that you have made.

So everybody's afraid of sovereignty for the tribe, but sovereignty is no better than the people who uses it, including the U.S. Government. And if you really want to do business, even though you have your own problems, you can negotiate a limited sovereignty so that it would be fair to the investors. They can get their money back, if they can through the courts. And we would have the same right as well to take them to court in a dispute or breach that might

occur.

So those are the kinds of things that I'm interested in to see how we can remove those obstacles. And I would be glad to work with anybody if I can be of help in those areas.

[Prepared statement of Mr. Phillip Martin appears in appendix.] The CHAIRMAN. Chief, did you attend our first hearing in Washington about 1 month ago that was the first one on S. 1691? Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you were there. We did that one primarily on contracts and taxes-and in the series of these hearings what we have heard and what I will ask you so you can go ahead and drive to the airport before we take the testimony of the other witnesses but one of the things we've heard is that clearly some tribes work very well with some local governments, State governments and some don't. And I'm not pointing fingers at who is wrong, but there's no question about it.

I visited the tribes around Palm Springs a few months ago, and I was just amazed at how much interaction there is between the county government and those tribes and the cities of Palm Springs and Palm Desert, not only cooperative agreements but cooperative investment opportunities, too. Some do good and the other ones not so well. It seems to me that it breaks down more along the lines if the tribe has a boundary which is almost all trust land. And they have less problems than if it's a boundary in which it's checkerboard with a lot of fee and trust lands in, at least from my perspective.

One of the things we're hearing is when tribal businesses expand, sometimes they can, if they put the land in trust, they can avoid local zoning or local ordinances that other people have to comply with or they don't have to be taxed; therefore, they don't have to charge as much for whatever they sell, that puts them in an unfair advantage against other private businesses, and we've heard those things, but the Choctaws have really a good relationship with the State of Mississippi.

And I understand that part of it was done through an accord you reached in 1997 with the State of Mississippi and really smoothed out a lot of these problems we hear. Could you talk just 1 moment about that?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. I think a lot depends on the Governor. Governor Fordice is very pro-Indian. And he, you know, we have the same concept of jobs for people, less Government, less regulation

that at the State level. So we decided to develop an accord for his administration and my administration to work together and for the benefit of all people in the

The CHAIRMAN. In that accord, if there's a disagreement, is there some kind of conflict resolution way that you can bring to the table and reach an agreement without any of the courts?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Most of the time we can resolve things just by talking to one another. We don't have any problem with it. They don't have any-we don't have any money in their budget and so, you know, whatever we do there, invest in the tribe, the spin-off there helps our neighbors and jobs and goods and services that we buy, all those kinds of things.

The CHAIRMAN. We have also heard that because some businesses that would like to set up cooperative agreements with tribes worry that the government, the tribal government is not very stable or that they are sovereign, that they might end up losing their investment as did the big carpet factory the other month.

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Well, we are all in one basket.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you voluntarily, did Mississippi talk about voluntarily either waiving your sovereignty or take an insurance policy or something to encourage businesses on reservations from outside investments?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Only one that we waived. Sovereignty is with joint ventures. The joint venture guys come in with investment with management know-how.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a pretty positive experience for both businesses and the outside?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. We haven't had to use anything like that yet.

The CHAIRMAN. My last question is a personal one. I note here you make a number of automotive parts. What do you make for Harley-Davidson?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Believe it or not, we are making parts.
The CHAIRMAN. What parts?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. I don't know, I haven't seen it on paper. The CHAIRMAN. At least it's American made. Senator Wellstone. Senator WELLSTONE. Just two questions, Chief. You've been able to make some progress that you're proud of. What do you think now are the most important challenges are for you? I mean, you clearly have made progress, but on the other hand, clearly there is much more to do. What do you see as being the most important thing you need to do?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Let me back up here. In our initial program we started developing industry on the reservation in 1979. And the purpose was to deal with high unemployment. And since 1979 we've created over 6,000 jobs and this has made a big economic impact to the east central part of the State.

And now we're looking for other things that we might invest in contract operations or new technology, those kinds of things we're interested in. But I also get great satisfaction out of doing things that the people there need and couldn't get before.

Senator WELLSTONE. These 6,000 jobs, are most of these jobs in gaming or are they in manufacturing?

Senator WELLSTONE. How many?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. 2,200. Then the rest of that is maybe 1,000 in tribal government and the rest of that is private sector employment.

Senator WELLSTONE. That is the total 6,000, that includes all of that?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Yes.

Senator WELLSTONE. What's the average wage? Are these jobs for both people who live on the reservation and off the reservation. These are not just jobs for Indian people, right?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Anybody from the world.

Senator WELLSTONE. Anybody that wants to work?
Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Anybody who wants to work.

Senator WELLSTONE. So in a way what you're saying is a lot of the job creation in Mississippi has been your job creation, correct? Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Correct..

Senator WELLSTONE. What is the average wage at these jobs?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Depends on, if you don't have any skills or training, you probably will start at minimum wage, but in time you can move up to $7.00 or $8.00 or $9.00.

As a matter of fact, there are a lot of professional four-year degree types as well as technicians, those guys get a lot more than that.

Senator WELLSTONE. What percentage of the higher-level, highskilled jobs paying the best wages with good benefits employ people from Indian country on your reservation?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. Are you talking about the Indian people? Senator WELLSTONE. Yes.

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. You know, everything has a history. Our tribe didn't have the opportunity to go to school until about 40 years ago.

Senator WELLSTONE. About how many years?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. About 40 years. So we are kind of behind on formal education, but we have a mid-management program. We do have a few college graduates and high school graduates. So we have started a mid-level management program to move our people up to those positions. And we have training programs with the casinos, all kind of jobs. In our schools and our hospitals, we have all kinds of professional positions, any of those. And most all of them are non-Indians, but good non-Indians.

Senator WELLSTONE. We need to have an affirmative action program. [Laughter.]

I'm just kidding.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you also offer benefits like health benefits, vacation, retirement, et cetera?

Mr. PHILLIP MARTIN. We have fringe benefits. We pay all of the Social Security and all the rest, no cost to the employee. It amounts to almost 30 percent of your pay and that's a good one. People like to work for us because they have those benefits. So it is—we have no problem with the local community.

One time we were very severely discriminated against, but all of those guys that discriminated are gone. We got some new people, young people that have been through school and this type. And

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