Mr. DEWINE. I think what you will find is, anytime you get a large movement, there are going to be some people in that movement, no matter how good that movement is, whether it's a civil rights movement or whether it's the prolife, you pick the cause, there will be some people who foul up. There will be some people who do not understand Mr. CONYERS. Well, you have not been listening to the witness, sir. He has admitted that he has condoned and will participate in violations of a criminal nature. Mr. DEWINE. His only testimony- Mr. CONYERS. He's not talking about his organization, he's teaching it. Mr. SCHEIDLER. Trespassing. Mr. DEWINE. The only testimony was trespassing. I do not condone that either. I just want to put it in its historical perspective. And I find it Mr. CONYERS. I will tell you-just a moment. I'll yield to you in just a moment. I find it a little difficult for you and I, as members of this committee, not to understand that assault can be verbal, and that's going on thousands of times and repeated here. And that's not civil, it's a criminal violation. So, for you to―― Mr. DEWINE. It is a case by case Mr. SCHEIDLER. Case by case. You should hear the assaults on us. Mr. CONYERS. For you to make that statement, I think we need to work on it a little bit more. But I yield back my time. Mr. SCHEIDLER. Could I leave, then? Because if you're going to carry on a dialog at the roster- Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Schumer. Mr. SCHUMER. I'd just like to make two points to carry this dialog further. We're not just talking about violence to bricks and mortar, we're talking about violence to human beings when you do your actions also. I mean, because the women who were here earlier were not complaining as much, making what I consider meritorious complaints. And most Americans, whatever their view on the issue of choice, life, call it what you will, would agree. We're talking about intimidation, anguish, problems caused to people, not just to bricks and mortar. That's No. 1. No. 2 is that the-let me just try to phrase this appropriatelywhat we're saying to Mr. De Wine and what Mr. Conyers is attempting to say again, is, government cannot, until you change the process legally, cannot just allow citizens to form their own higher law. When Mr. Scheidler says that he will not condemn arson or whatever until other people condemn the taking of what he calls human life-but my definition does not agree with his as to what is human life, from my religious and moral upbringing-he, once again, is making his own law. And in a sense, he, in my opinion at least-and maybe you would agree, because what you were saying was he's distancing-you were distancing the main stream of the prolife movement from what Mr. Scheidler is doing-but what he is doing is just setting up his own moral construct regardless of the laws of this country. And our Government's job is to enforce the law. I'm sorry. I've talked too long. I would yield to you, Mr. DeWine. Mr. DEWINE. Just this one last comment. I know the chairman wants to finish up the meeting; I don't blame him. The same arguments were made in the civil rights movement. They were made. The question of-the moral question, the tough moral question-do I have the right to violate a State law and trespass, those issues were brought up in the civil rights movement, too. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that he's right on the question of trespass. I'm not saying I would trespass in knowing violation of the law. Mr. SCHUMER. You're really saying he's wrong, I presume. Mr. EDWARDS. Well, we thank all of the witnesses. We thank the members. On March 12 we will get at some of the violence that has occurred through the eyes of the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the organization charged with investigating arson and bombing. Stephen Higgins, the head of BATF, will be here, as well as William Webster, the Director of the FBI. The FBI has been assisting BATF. We will look at the Federal response to the bombing and how the two agencies have been working together. [Whereupon, at 12:36 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] ABORTION CLINIC VIOLENCE TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 1985 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON CIVIL AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 3 p.m., in room 2237, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Don Edwards (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Edwards, Kastenmeier, Schroeder, and Sensenbrenner. Staff present: Catherine A. LeRoy, chief counsel; and Philip G. Kiko, associate counsel. Mr. EDWARDS. The subcommittee will come to order. This afternoon we are going to continue the subcommittee's inquiry into the bombings and arson at birth control clinics and abortion clinics throughout the United States. Last week we looked into the harassment and the threats and sometimes the physical dangers, trespass and so forth that people who are trying to shut the clinics down and who are trying to keep women from attending these clinics were engaged in. We were examining the civil rights aspects of that part of this entire issue. However, today we are going to focus on the bombings and the arsons that have taken place throughout the United States, which constitute very serious violations of law and which are terribly, terribly dangerous. We are going to have as one of our two witnesses the Director of the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Mr. Stephen Higgins. The BATF is the lead agency in bombing and arson cases. I might say before introducing you, Mr. Higgins, that you have done a splendid job. I think that you and the agents involved should be congratulated. After Mr. Higgins testifies, we are going to ask the Director of the FBI, Judge Webster, to tell us about the FBI's involvement in this issue and the valuable assistance that it has been able to give to BATF. Also, Judge Webster, we congratulate you, too, because a good job has been done. Before I call on you, Mr. Higgins, I yield to the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Sensenbrenner. Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me ask unanimous consent that this hearing be photographed or televised or otherwise broadcast pursuant to Judiciary Committee Rule V. Mr. EDWARDS. Without objection it is so ordered. Mr. SENSENBRENNER. Mr. Chairman, all thinking Americans, regardless of whether they support or oppose legalized abortion, condemn the illegal acts of arson and violence that have been committed in abortion clinics. I have a 100 percent prolife voting record in this Congress, and frankly, I think that the bombings that have taken place have hurt the efforts of those of us who wish to pass a human life amendment to the U.S. Constitution to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, decided in 1973. I look forward to these hearings with a bit of fear and trepidation, however, particularly as we talk about law enforcement's efforts to apprehend those who are responsible for these illegal and criminal acts and to bring them to trial. As many of us know, we are approaching the trial date of three defendants who are accused of bombing abortion clinics in the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virginia. I am afraid that the timing of the hearings at this particular time will generate some publicity that might be used by the attorneys for those defendants as a way of either moving the trial or having their clients escape the justice which should be coming to them should they be convicted by a jury of their peers. So, I really wish that we had waited in having these two distinguished gentlemen until after the trial of these individuals has taken place and the jury has reached a verdict, but since the chairman has decided not to do that, I wish to add my words of commendation to both the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, as well as the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I think it was a marvelous job that your agencies were able to identify defendants and get them apprehended within 2 weeks after the bombing of the abortion clinic in Southeast Washington, DC. My hat is off to both of you. Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you, Mr. Sensenbrenner. Mr. Kastenmeier. Mr. KASTENMEIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I compliment you on having these hearings. I am interested in hearing both the distinguished Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Mr. Higgins. I know in the past sometimes the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has taken abuse, but obviously it has earned the respect of many not only with respect to this issue, but many others in recent months and years. I realize that there is never a good time to conduct a congressional inquiry into a sensitive area such as this, and a controversial one-not controversial in terms of approval of the violence, but controversial in terms of the underlying issues sometimes predisposing people to views about such issues. Notwithstanding that concern, I suspect the earliest moment is the best time for us to make a congressional inquiry and to hear these two distinguished witnesses, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to hearing from them. Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you, Mr. Kastenmeier. The gentlewoman from Colorado, Mrs. Schroeder. Mrs. SCHROEDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, compliment you for moving expeditiously on these hear number of incidents that we heard about last time, I don't think we can delay action. It is conceivable that there will always be some trials going on somewhere. I also want to compliment the two gentlemen for what they have been doing. My big question is the one that the chairman had at the beginning. I think after the clinics have been bombed, certainly we have to do everything we can to bring the people to trial. My only question is, is there any way-and obviously you are not the two we can talk to about that—to prevent the harassment and the interference that go on before the bombings, that create the atmosphere. Since the atmosphere has been set and those incidents have occurred, you have done a phenomenal job in bringing people to justice expeditiously who have been doing that part of it. I compliment you and will be anxious to hear what you have to say. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. EDWARDS. Director Higgins, you may proceed. STATEMENTS OF STEPHEN E. HIGGINS, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY, AND WILLIAM H. WEBSTER, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Mr. HIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to brief you on ATF's role in the investigation of anti-abortion bombings and arsons over the past several years. While we recognize the high degree of public interest in these incidents and concern with how they are being addressed, it is not possible for us to discuss all of them publicly at this time. In Pensacola, FL, a court order bars public discussion of the cases pending in that area. In the Washington, DC, area we are approaching the trial date for the three men charged with the 10 arsons and bombings which occurred in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and the District of Columbia between January 17, 1984, and New Year's Day of this year. Any public discussion by us of the evidence in these cases or categorization of the specific defendants before these trials would not be appropriate. Finally, while 22 of the 32 incidents we have investigated since 1982 have been closed by conviction or by arrest, we do have active investigations not only of the 10 open anti-abortion cases but of numerous other explosives and incendiary incidents. Therefore, we have to be publicly circumspect in our discussion of investigative techniques used in these cases. Nevertheless, we will be happy to testify as to the issues that have been of concern with regard to these cases in which convictions have been obtained and to summarize generally what our investigations have revealed. Additionally, while we cannot testify publicly in certain areas, we fully support this committee's efforts to determine for the public what has been done with regard to these incidents. We are, therefore, more than willing to respond to those questions we |