have done credit to the Minifter to advise, and to another quarter to have determined, to make provifion for that marriage, in a manner that should not bear upon the thoulders of a people already ftooping under their burdens. He maintained that when the fum now propofed, came to be added to the reft, the whole fum of deficiency which must be raifed annually by fresh taxes, would amount to 140,000l. a year. Had thefe perfons who fubfcribed to this Loan juft claims, he fhould agree to relieve them, great as the burdens were upon the people, because nothing could be fo great a weight upon them as that of injuftice; but as they had no fuch claim, he muft fupport the Motion for the Chairman leaving the Chair without putting this Refolution. The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that he had always faid Subfcribers had no claim of right. But having told the Sub fcribers that there would be no Loan above 18 Millions that year, they were in equity entitled to confideration on that account. An Honourable Gentleman (Mr. W. Smith) had stated the 10 per cent. for three years, as if it was a permanent intereft, whereas if it continued for a longer time than three years, it decreafed in a ratio that would bring it down in four years to 8 per cent. and fo on. The queftion for the Committee was this---Did or did not the Subfcribers lend their money at less than the market price of the Funds? And if fo, were they not entitled to confideration? The Honourable Gentleman had indulged in plaufible topics, which however, did not apply to the cafe: for the money being lent under market price, evinced a difpofition to ferve the country --and if, as was the fact, it was lent on the terms of no other Loan being made that year, which the emergencies of the country made it impoffible to fulfil, had they not a claim for indemnification? The Honourable Gentleman fhould recollect, that they were at par only for a few days, and at the second payment they were at an enormous discount. As there could be no transfer without a receipt, and no receipt could by law be granted tiil the fecond payment, there was no manner of evidence for the Houfe to go on. But by the transfer of the receipts after the fecond depofit, the bulk transferred must have been after they had fallen to a heavy difcount so that their lofs must have been great. Mr. Smith faid, he did not affert that the Subfcribers would have ten per cent. in perpetuity, but for three years. Mr. Tierney could not allow the refolution to be put without expreffing his opinion upon the fubject; and though he knew too well the iffue of divifions in that Houfe to prefs one on that evening, yet if any other Gentleman chofe to divide the Committee, his name would be found in what he fuppofed would be the minority. The propofition of the Chancellor of the the Exchequer was nothing less than ripping up an Act of Parliament, by an attempt to do what he called juftice, when he himfelf allowed, that from the lapfe of time and circumftances which had intervened, juftice was rendered impoffible. Add to this, that the propofition was made at the end of a Seffion, which he must not call extravagant, for that House never did any thing extravagant; but at the end of a Seffion in which burdens had been impofed upon the people to an amount beyond all precedent, they were called upon to vote 70,000l. a year, which, at fourteen. years purchase, was one million sterling of the people's money. But if the perfons for whom this fum was to be voted really confidered themfelves as having so strong a claim upon the public, why had they not ftated that claim in petitions to the Houfe. No fuch step had been taken by them, and he trusted that whatever might be the refult of the Motion, this Loan would no longer be denominated the Loyalty Loan, for it now had evidently no claim to that title. When the mutiny first broke out among the fubfcribers to this Loan, they followed the example of other mutineers, and appointed their delegates, who had conferred with the Right Honourable Gentleman during a space of feveral months. It had been obferved, by a worthy Alderman, that the City of London were fatisfied with the conduct of Minifters; and indeed it would have been abfurd to expect, that while the City of London were negotiating for fuch a fum as 70,000l. per annum, they would take any steps against the Right Honourable Gentleman. The Right Honourable Gentleman had conducted the negotiation with great skill, and had raised and damped the hopes of the fubfcribers according as he wanted their affiftance. He begged the House to recollect the language ufed by the Minister when he proposed this Loan. He faid that it was neceflary to ftrike a terror into the Enemy, by fhewing not only the resources, but the unanimity of the country; and he confidered that Loan as proving both. However, this loyalty which had been fo much praised, was a commodity which, it appeared, would not keep two months. It had not the effect of frightening the Directory who appeared to have a more correct eftimate of the loyalty of the city of London than the Honourable Gentleman. No man, however hoftile to the interefts of this country, could have propofed a measure so inimical to it as the prefent; because it fhewed the country what they were to expect from the lives and fortunes of men, who would not confent to lofe a farthing for their loyalty. If this. refolution was adopted, no reformer would ftand in need of any farther argument to fupport his opinion. For if the House could, only with this curfory explanation, vote fuch a fum a fum as 70,000l. per annum, to perfons whofe names even they did not know, it would be an irrefiftable argument for a reform. He would not fay any thing difrefpectful of the House of Commons; but if they did not confent to this refolution, the leaft that would be faid of their conduct, would be, that they were not over cautious of the expenditure of the public money. Mr. Jolliffe condemned the measure propofed by the Motion, as one of the most profuse and improvident he had ever heard of. Those who had subscribed had done fo with their eyes open. They made a merit of it at the time, and there was the greatest injuftice in requiring any remuneration now, because the funds might hereafter rife confiderably, and then they would receive a confiderable fum by the difference in the price of Stocks. He considered the tranfaction, on the parts of many of the fubfcribers, as in fome degree fraudulent, for he believed many had fet down their names for fums of money which they never were poffeffed of, and if they were to receive a remuneration for fuch procedure, it was merely an encouragement of fraud. He fpoke in the fevereft terms on the enormity of the fum thus wantonly to be taken out of the pockets of the people, and expressed himself. very pointedly against the Motion. Mr. W. Smith faid, that it had always been a rule in every Committee, as well as in the House, that in every question in which any Member was perfonally concerned, he should withdraw, as therefore it would be highly indecorous in those who had been fubfcribers to the Loan to remain and vote for the additional bonus; he hoped this rule would be strictly conformed to in the present case. Mr. Baftard conjured the Committee to reflect upon the state of the country and of the fituation of the Houfe of Commons before they gave their fanction to a measure fo unprecedented and fhameful in its nature, and fo ruinous and deftructive in its tendency. He conjured them to paufe and to reflect on what they were doing. There was an opinion gone abroad in the country that there was a profufion in the expenditure of the public money, and a facility in that House to vote fums without ftrift inveftigation into the mode of their application. He should wish to see the persons to whom this gratuity was to be paid, and the perfons who were to pay it! He befeeched them to reflect on the fituation in which they were placed, to recollect that they could not go on by the ordinary means of taxation, and that facrifices ought to be made by thofe who were able to make them, He complimented Mr. Dent very handsomely for his difintereftedness, and wifhed that all the fubfcribers had been actuated by principles as laudable and praife-worthy. Mr. Mr. Baftard requested the Houfe to paufe before they aflented to fuch a refolution as this, which he confidered as pregnant with the most ruinous confequences. He wished to have the names of the perfons laid before the Houfe, and also that fome information fhould be given of the manner in which this sum was to be raised: for, under the prefent circumftances, it could not be raised by common modes of taxation. He trufted, therefore, that the holders of this Loan would not vote for a refolution, the effect of which was to put money into their own pockets. It appeared to him a grofs injuftice, that men who only purchafed into this fund yesterday, fhould be reimbursed for a fuppofed lofs. He was, therefore, for the Order of the Day. Mr. Rofe faid, that thofe who purchafed into this Loan yefterday, could have no pretence to the Bonus; for it was confined to the original fubfcribers. He wished to afk an Honourable Member (Mr. Dent) who had spoken early in the debate for an explanation of an expreffion which he had dropped. The Honourable Gentleman had faid, that though he had confidence in the Chancellor of the Exchequer, yet there were perfons about him who mifled him. Though he faw no reafon for applying this obfervation to himself, yet he could not avoid afking the Honourable Gentleman to explain what he meant by fuch allufions. Mr. Dent faid, he was forry that a Gentleman with whom he had lived upon fuch terms, thould fufpe&t him of alluding to him by fuch an obfervation. He declared upon his honour, that he did not mean any perfon upon that bench. His allufion was to perfons out of doors, by whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been advifed. He placed the higheft confidence in the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and was fatisfied he was the laft man in existence who would be concerned in any job: but this measure he did not confider as originating with him, and could not give his affent to it. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rofe) certainly knew more of this particular tranfaction than he could do, and in fo aptly taking the cap, and fitting to himfelf, he had done what he had no idea of attributing to him. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thanked Mr. Dent for the good opinion which he had been pleased to exprefs of him; but difclaimed any praise which was beftowed upon him at the expence of thofe by whom he had been advised, as, in bringing forward the prefent measure, he had acted in conformity to his own opinion and to the dictates of his own judgment. Mr. Vanfittart said he could not give a filent vote on this queftion. If the point was preffed to a divifion he should vote against the propofition. It was not ascertained whether there would be any lofs to the original fubfcribers. Many had fold out at par, or even for a flight premium. If stocks rofe after a peace, as as it was to be expected they would, thofe who retain their fubfcription would have no lofs. He thought the propofition at prefent was premature. Mr. Hufey faid, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer could fhew him any ground of justice for giving away fo much money, he should affent, but if not he thould vote against the propofition. General Tarleton conceived the prefent Motion as tending to affect the intereft of his Conftituents, and therefore could not agree to it. Mr. Moreland faid, that there was an understanding in confequence of what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that no other Loan was to be raised within the year. The fubfcribers who acted on this understanding had fome right to an indemnification or allowance. In the cafe of the Loan two years ago, this principle had been admitted. In point of policy, he thought the meafure proper. He had a fmall thare in that Loan, but too small to admit the fufpicion that he could be actuated by perfonal motives in the opinion and vote he gave. He Lord William Ruffell faid, if the principle of the laft speaker could be carried a little farther, it would be a good thing. fhould be very glad if it were poffible to give an indemnification to all those who had been difappointed, and had fuffered from relying on the language thrown out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. W. Smith faid, that in the cafe of the Loan alluded to, a specific engagement was confidered to have been made with Boyd, Benfield, and Company. The Committee divided on the queftion, Ayes Noes 40 26 14 HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, June 1. Heard counsel on the claim of Sir Adam Ferguson to the Peerage of the Earl of Glencairn. NAVAL MUTINY. Lord Grenville prefented a Meffage from the King, relative to this very important fubject. [For which, fee the Proceedings of the Houfe of Commons.] Lord Grenville then laid a Copy of the Proclamation referred to in the Meffage, upon the Table, and moved, "That his "Majefty's most gracious Meffage be taken into confideration No. 42 9 P "next |