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have taken place, but that misrepresentation ought to have been anticipated by some earlier proposition on the subject. He pressed the Right Honourable Gentleman to inform the House what motive, what reason, what pretence could exist for the delay of a fortnight which had intervened ? He did not impute any responsibility to the Admiralty, as they had done all they could do
Mr. Fox asked if there was any man that would deny that if the news of this vote having passed would be of advantage in the beginning of this week, it would not have been of equal importance in the beginning of last week, or the preceding one? How could this fortnight's delay be justified ? He differed from his Honourable Friend (Mr. Sheridan) on the exculpation of the Lords of the Admiralty. The vote he confessed could not have originated in the other House; but he wondered how a man of fu much honour and spirit as Lord Spencer, whom he sincerely esteemed, showld have suffered the subject to be delayed for a fortnight in the House of Commons. « Were I in his Lordship's lituation,” says Mr. Fox, “ I should not have remained in office to behold such an act of criminality in my colleagues.” Misconception might have existed, and to this perhaps was owing the new disturbances that had taken place. The Right Honourable Gentleman indeed had often the fortune to be milunderstood, owing to the perverseness of his audience, no doubt, but it was rather unlucky that this so often happened, though his audience was composed of men of all descriptions ; but putting it on this ground, that any room was given for misunderstanding was a great misfortune to the country, and a great act of criminality in those who should have prevented it. .
The resolution then pailed nem. con.
The House being resumed, the Report was immediately received, and agreed to nem. con. Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 9.
LOAN BILL. On the Motion for the second reading of the Bill for granting to his majefty fourteen millions five hundred thousand pounds, by way of Loan, .
The Earl of Suffolk begged leave to ask a question of the Noble Secretary of State (Lord Grenville) which was, whether any part of that money to be raised by this Bill was intended to be sent to Ireland ?
Lord Grenville said, that certainly the sum of one million five ndred thoujand pounds was intended for the service of the Sister
The Earl of Suffolk said, he thought the House ought well to consider the subject before they gave their assent to lo large a portion of the public money being sent out of the kingdom, at this time of unexampled distress and calamity, without having fome explanation given them as to the purposes to which this money was to be applied. He was afraid, he said, that it was meant for the purposes of coercing the people of that country. If so, it would be far better that it should never go. Nothing, in his opinion, could be more to be deprecated, than a continuance of the measures which had been for some time past adopted in Ireland. He hoped, therefore, the Noble Secretary would inform him how this money was intended to be applied. .
Lord Grenville faid, that the question of the Noble Earl had placed him in a very difficult situation. Indeed it was impossible for him to answer it. The money was to be sent to the Government of Ireland, for the purpose of defraying all expences which were necessary for the defence of that country against our Enemies, and those who aided or abetted them. When the money once arrived in that country, it then became the province of the Irish Parliament to dispose of it in such manner as to them thall feem best for the general interests and defence of the country against all its enemies. It was out of his power, therefore, to give any further answer on the subject.
The Earl of Suffolk said, that if he thought the money was intended to be used for the defence of that country, against her external enemies, no man would be readier, or vote for it more eagerly than he would. He was, however, very much afraid it was rather intended for the purposes of coercion of the people there, which was what he deprecated as one of the most unwise and impolitic systems that could possibly be pursued. No man. who was at all acquainted with the situation of the two countries, could have a doubt upon his mind of the immense importance of Ireland to this kingdom. No man who had considered this great importance would deny, that Ireland was, in fact, the right arm of this country, and, if that was admitted, how dreadful must it be to contemplate the great danger there was, that from the mischievous measures which had lately been adopted in that country, the right arm was likely to be lopped off from the body, He thought, therefore, the House ought rather to interpofe its influence to prevail on his Majesty's Ministers to adopt conciliating measures, in order to calm the minds of the unhappy people of that country, than vote away so large a sum of money, to be used for carrying on a system of coercion, from which he could not help dreading the most fatal and mischievous consequences, if they were madly perfifted in.
Lord Grenville said, that Ministers in this country could no interfere in the measures adopted in Ireland, without the breach of a folemn compact.
Earl Moira conceived that his Noble Friend (Lord Suffolk) had, with regard to the money advanced by the Loan, rather misapprehended the subject. It was a Loan raised for Ireland, under the guarantee of this country. He perfectly agreed with him, however, on the other parts of his Lordship's speech, and could not think himself justified in giving a lilent vote on the present occasion. From the languid manner in which their Lordships seemed to attend to what he said on a former occasion, he concluded that they were of opinion that this country had no interest in the concerns of Ireland. As he was of a very different opinion, of an opinion so different, that he conceived the very existence of Great Britain to depend upon her connexion with Ireland, he again called upon their Lordships seriously to consider the tendency of the measures which Ministers had adopted, and were still pursuing, in that country. His Lordship said, that the argument made use of by the Noble Secretary of State, both in answer to him on a former night, and to his Noble Friend on the present occasion, “ that his Majesty's Ministers could not interfere with Ireland without a breach of compacts," was childish in the extreme, and much more mischievous than childish. He warned their Lordships, however, how they continued to give ear to such weak arguments. He had no hesitation in declaring that if these measures were persisted in, and if the same system was continued, that they hazarded a dismemberment of the British Empire; whereas, had the measures of conciliation been adopted, which he proposed a short time ago, he firmly believed that things in that quarter would already have worn a much more promising aspect. He did not know whether it was not already too late; but if they persevered much longer in the same line of policy, he ventured to predict that Ireland, if not wrested from under the dominion of the British King, would be reduced to a situation in which it would be cause to the Englifh Government of continual distrust, suspicion, and alarm. He begged them to recollect the dreadful consequences which had resulted from a similar system of coercion pursued against America. In the beginning of that fatal system, we had begun by ftigmatizing them as rebels, and had thence compelled them to be fo. We had declared the Americans to be rebels---we had threatened to punish them as fuch. The Americans received the information with astonishment, as nothing had been farther from their thoughts than any idea of rebellion. Finding, however, that they were declared rebels, and to be treated as such, the indignation which they felt, added to the dread of that punishment which they lo
little merited, drove them to that firm and compact bond of union which enabled them to beat us out of the country, and to complete their independence. He warned the King's Ministers against a similar event in Ireland; and if they were so fhortfighted, so infatuated, as not to give wholesome advice to his Majesty upon the subject, he entreated their Lordships not to be silent when they saw the most important interests of the country at stake, but to advise his Majesty to employ such conciliatory measures as may tend to attach his subjects in that part of his dominions to his person and government. Had Ministers, instead of acting upon a system of coercion, yielded to the demand, or rather might he have said, hearkened to the petitions, of the Roman Catholics and Diflenters in that kingdom, they would at this moment have been prepared to parry the greatest dangers by which the country might be threatened, and instead of being under the necessity of fending money for the service of Ireland, they might have been deriving the most effectual means of national defence from that quarter. Whether it was now too late to alter the fystein of measures in that kingdom, he could not take upon himself to say, but if the same measures were pursued much longer, he was at no loss to deliver it as his opinion that they would be attended with the most calamitous effects that this country had ever known. He entreated their Lordships seriously to reflect that the question was not merely whether Ireland was or was not to remain attached to the British Crown; but whether the Government of this country was to exist, or to be annihilated; for he ventured to affirm, that if Ireland was wrested from under the dominion of his Majesty, the Government of Great Britain would not survive for fix months. Ireland, ifever it should be deprived of the protection of this country, must necessarily league itself with another State, and when we are deprived of this arm of strength, he begged to know whether we could make any effectual resistance to an enemy already too pow- . erful, with this new accession of resource? It was not, therefore, the honour and credit of the English Crown which he called upon their Lordships to vindicate, it was for their acres that he entreated them to consult; for the Church Establishment, and the livings attached to it, which he invoked the Reverend Prelates to defend. Under these impressions, he now took the liberty of repeating what he had formerly urged, convinced as he was that he should have been deficient in the duty which he owed to his Sovereign and to his country, had he neglected the opportunity which was afforded him by the mention of Ireland, of throwing out considerations which appeared to him to be of such importance in the present state of that unhappy and distracted country.
The Earl of Suffolk faid, he had come down for the purpose not of bringing the state of Ireland into discussion, but of asking fome very important questions upon a subject perhaps still more alarming, to which, after the present motion was disposed of, he hoped that he should receive fatisfactory antwers from the Noble Secretary of State.
Lord Grenville replied, that, in his opinion, the discussion into which the Noble Earl (Moira) had entered on a former day, and which on this day he had thought proper to renew, could not be entertained without a breach of a moit solemn compact, and a direct infringement of the rights of the independent Legislature of Ireland. Whether the arguments uled by him, in answer to the proposition which the Noble Earl had brought forward some time ago with regard to Ireland, were childish or not, he had left it to the House to determine. The Houle had determined on that question, and he was perfectly satisfied, from every thing that had happened since, that no measure could have proved more mischievous to the filter kingdom, than the adoption of the proposition of the Noble Earl.
The Duke of Grafton contended, that the Noble Secretary, professing as he did to believe that the Motion of the Noble Earl (Moira) would have been accompanied with bad effects, was bound to thew that the affairs of Ireland had been improved, since its rejection by the mcatures which his Majesty's Ministers were now acting. It had unfortunately happened that all the assurances and expectations held out by the Noble Secretary upon public affairs, had uniformly failed, and he was afraid that their conduct, in respect to Ireland, would add another instance to the long catalogue of ministerial disgraces and of public disappointments.
Lord Grenville professed a readiness at all times to meet any discussion which any Noble Lord might think proper to bring forward, respecting the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, and expressed a conviction that it would never suffer from a comparison with the mode in which their measures had been opposed.
The Duke of Bedford said, there was one part of the speech of the Noble Secretary of State which he did not understand.--He talked of the breach of a solemn compact. His Grace faid he knew of no folemn compact that had been made. If, how-, ever, it was contended that the Parliament of this country, using its influence with his Majesty to prevail on him to interpose his good offices with the Irish Government, was a breach of a folemn compact, it was equally so for the Parliament to vote fo large a sum of money to be expended in that country.
Lord Grenville explained, that the expression alluded to by the Noble Duke, was not used in reference to a pecuniary remita No. 35. *