Mr. MCAFEE. I think that, besides the road work that has been mentioned, whether that will be sufficient to give all of the Indians financial assistance to develop their land, I don't know, but I think that the Government has been spending enough money to help the Indians, they say, but they really don't have anything to show for the expenditures that they make in certain things. There is a lot of money, without any additional appropriations, that could be used. The individual allotments of the Indians can be improved with that same amount of money that is being appropriated to finance other things that are really not necessary on the reservation.

Senator CAMERON. In other words, you mean the appropriation that has gone to the agency would be sufficient if used economically? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes.

Mr. Bow DEN. Are there any particular expenditures that you know of that you are complaining about?

Mr. MCAFEE. Well, I could not say. Of course, if I had been in the Government service probably I could give you more facts than that, but I suppose there are other parties who can tell you more about that than I can.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, on these individual allotments at the present time and with no water, the only use you can make of that land, if any, is for grazing purposes?

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes; that is all the use we have.

Mr. BOWDEN. Of course, you can't do anything with 10-acre lots. You have got to lump them together.

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, you say you oppose the leasing of these allotments to white persons. How would you recommend that they be

handled?

Mr. MCAFEE. You
Mr Bow DEN. Yes.

mean the individual holdings? Have you a tribal herd on your reservation? Mr. MCAFEE. No. We have herds, but they are not tribal; they are individual.

Mr. BOWDEN. They are individual herds?

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes. That land we have got, that is about all that it is good for, is to graze herds that the Indians have.

Mr. BOWDEN. Who graze on that land?

Mr. MCAFEE. Sir?

Mr. BOWDEN. Who graze on that land-whose cattle?

Mr. MCAFEE. Indian cattle.

Mr. BOWDEN. The Indian cattle are privately owned?

Mr. MCAFEE. Privately owned, and I don't know anything about tribal herds. The Pimas never had a tribal herd.

Mr. BOWDEN. All individual herds?

Mr. MCAFEE. All individual herds.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are there Indians there who are desirous of leasing other Indian land?

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, we have some Indians that would like to lease ther lands. Of course, at present, all of the land is in cultivation that can be and if, in the future, when we have sufficient water, there will be some Indians that would like to farm other individuals' lands. Senator CAMERON. If you had water at the present time, or had had Water right along, you would not necessarily need any assistance, would you?

Mr. MCAFEE. No.

Senator CAMERON. You could farm and grow your products and make a livelihood with that?

Mr. MCAFEE. That is what I stated in the first place that the earlier visitors can tell you how the Pimas farmed in the old days. During the Civil War they furnished all of the wheat to the soldiers and they had all that they needed and more too. If the Pimas at that time, without the education that they now have and the equipment and the implements of the present day, can be self-supporting, why, there is no reason why we now, that we have a little education, while not as much as we should have, yet we are far more better equipped to farm than we were 50 years ago.

Mr. BOWDEN. Congress has from time to time appropriated money to constitute a fund which should be used for advancing moneys to Indians in the form of a loan. Do you know of any such loans being made on your reservation?

Mr. MCAFEE. I do not; no, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. How long have you been there continuously?

Mr. MCAFEE. Well, I have lived there all of my life outside of the years I spent in school. That was right here at Phoenix-12 years. About 12 years out for school.

Mr. BOWDEN. What is your age now?

Mr. MCAFEE. Twenty-eight.

Mr. BOWDEN. When did you finish school-what year?

Mr. MCAFEE. I finished the Indian school in the year 1916 and then I went two years to high school-two more years to high school here.

Mr. BOWDEN. Did you know that there was such a fund from which Indians could borrow money?

Mr. MCAFEE. No, sir; I was not acquainted.

Mr. BOWDEN. How long has your present Indian agent been in charge of that reservation-superintendent been in charge of that reservation?

Mr. MCAFEE. I think it is a little less than a month.
Mr. BOWDEN. Who was your previous Indian agent?
Mr. MCAFEE. Mr. Duclos.

Mr. BOWDEN. How long was he there?

Mr. MCAFEE. I think he was there about three years, I believe. I could not say for sure.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you remember the Indian superintendent who was there before him?

Mr. MCAFEE. No, sir; I do not. Yes, I do, too-Mr. Haygood. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you know how long he was there?

Mr. MCAFEE. I think he was there about four years.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you get any water from the Salt River project?
Mr. MCAFEE. No; not the Pimas. Not the Pima Indians.
Mr. BOWDEN. That is all.

Senator ASHURST. That is all.

Senator CAMERON. That will be all.

Mr. MCAFEE. May I ask a question?
Senator CAMERON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCAFEE. In reference to the Fowler lease, should any attempt be made exempting the parties leasing that land from fulfilling their obligations-would that be allowed?

Mr. BOWDEN. What are their obligations?

Mr. MCAFEE. Well, it is putting a certain part of the land in alfalfa and fencing the Indian allotments.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are those provisions provided for in the lease with Fowler?

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. You haven't got a copy of the lease here?

Mr. MCAFEE. I have not; no, sir. As I said before, we have never had access to anything like that-the Indians.

Senator CAMERON. Were the Pima Indians a party to the leasedo you know whether any of them signed the lease?

Mr. MCAFEE. No; I don't know of any that signed the lease. I know there was objection but it was too late.

Senator CAMERON. Isn't it customary, when a lease is made on your reservation, that the Indians give their consent and sign the lease? Mr. MCAFEE. No; it never has been done.

Senator CAMERON. Well, would you state that the Osborn lease had not been completed or had not gone into existence?

Mr. MCAFEE. Well, I do know that the present superintendent is not in favor of arbitrarily leasing. He wants to get the consent of the Indians first.

Senator CAMERON. Well, that would be satisfactory to the Indians, wouldn't it?

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. I think the committee had better get a copy. Mr. BOWDEN. Is the Indian superintendent here to-day?

Mr. MCAFEE. I don't think so. I have never seen him.

Senator CAMERON. Do you know how long the Fowler lease was made for?

Mr. MCAFEE. I understand it was eight years.

Senator CAMERON. Do you know how long the lease has been running now?

Mr. MCAFEE. The lease is going to expire in February, so I understand.

Senator CAMERON. And as yet those in charge of the Fowler lease have not complied with the lease as far as you know?

Mr. MCAFEE. No.

Senator CAMERON. And that is why you are making this request before the committee?

Mr. MCAFEE. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Was it an agricultural lease or grazing lease?

Mr. MCAFEE. Agricultural lease.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have the Indians on your reservation made, to your knowledge, a request that their land be conveyed to them in fee without any trust provisions?

Mr. MCAFEE. I don't know of that.

Mr. BOWDEN. That is all.

Senator CAMERON. That will be all. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

43213-25 PT 4-25

STATEMENT OF JUDGE OTIS J. BAUGHN, PHOENIX, ARIZ.

Senator CAMERON. Judge Baughn, give your name and your occupation and your residence.

Mr. BAUGHN. Otis J. Baughn, lawyer, city of Phoenix, 702 Heard Building.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are you acquainted, Judge, with the Pima Indian Reservation?

Mr. BAUGHN. Fairly well; yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Will you tell the committee the extent of time that you have been familiar with the Pimas and their problems?

Mr. BAUGHN. Well, I came to Arizona first in the fall of 1909 and established my home here in Pinal County and the Pima Reservation, I believe, is almost wholly in Pinal County or is wholly in Pinal County and I practiced law there for a while. Later, in 1914, I was elected to the superior bench of that county and I was judge of the superior court for eight years, located in Pinal County from January 1, 1915, to January 1, 1923, and, of course, during that time I was very familiar with conditions in that county-necessarily so-and also I have been very active in connection with the development of that country; that is, the efforts to get it developed under the San Carlos project, as both Senator Cameron and Senator Ashurst are very familiar with.

Senator ASHURST. We appreciate your efforts.

Mr. BAUGHN. I believe you want these statements largely for the record, not because the Senators don't know about it, and naturally I made quite a study of the possibility of water development and reclamation of that country, which involved not only certain areas there which were in white ownership but also the areas of the reservation which were inside of the Indian reservation and in that way became, I think, more or less familiar.

Mr. BOWDEN. We would like to get your opinion, Judge, on the policy of leasing Indian land in the Pima Reservation to white persons?

Mr. BAUGHN. Well, I don't know that I have any fixed opinion on leasing of Indian lands. I really have never made any particular study of the proposition or what leases have been executed in connection with the matter. I, of course, have heard discussions more or less at different times regarding it and we generally know, as a rule, what the final outcome is where encroachments are made upon reservations. I might say something with regard to the character of the Pimas as a tribe, if that would be proper.

Senator ASHURST. We would be glad to hear it, Judge.

Mr. BAUGHN. Because I had an opportunity to observe them closely during the time I was a resident of that county.

Senator ASHURST. With especial reference to their skill as agriculturalists.

Mr. BAUGHN. I might say that during the entire eight years that I was on the bench of Pinal County I now recall, I believe, that three-but three times that Indians were brought before me on any charges of a criminal character. In other words, I believe there were but three Indians before my court at any time during that eight years on any criminal offense, and I think those were merely of a minor character, such as petit larceny-not petit larceny-theft of

saddle horses or something of that kind-through two terms of four years. That is my recollection, Senator.

Senator ASHURST. How many Indians were there there at that time, so we can get the proportion?

Mr. BAUGHN. Entire reservation, you mean?

Senator ASHURST. The entire reservation in your county?

Mr. BAUGHN. I think from four to five thousand.

Senator ASHURST. Four to five thousand Indians, and yet only three were charged with serious offenses-felonies?

Mr. BAUGHN. Sufficient to have them brought in and tried as a court. Of course, I believe they have sort of a tribal court of their own in which petty matters are handled without resort to the State courts. I will also state that during that period of time, as I now recall it, there was one case of an Indian divorce action that I remember. Mr. Little here was with me for some years as court reporter and he may recall possibly that there was one or two instances, but I don't remember. My best recollection is that there was but one divorce case and three criminal cases which arose on the reservation among the Indians. Of course, among an aggregation of 5,000 people that was, I might say, a mighty remarkable record for living honorably and as upright citizens. I consider the Pimas as the finest tribe of Indians I ever came in contact with. I lived for five years in South Dakota on the Sioux Reservation-Rosebud Sioux-and came in contact with the Rosebud Sioux, the Yankton Sioux, and the Crow Creek Sioux to some extent naturally as a resident up in that country, and, while I have no knowledge of other Indians particularly, I think, from all that I have learned with regard to Indians generally that the Pimas are the finest tribe of Indians on the Indian rolls in Washington. I believe that would probably be conceded by anyone who is acquainted with the various Indian tribes that are located in this country.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any recommendations to make relative to financing these Indians in making such necessary improvements that will have to be made when they get water to their lands?

Mr. BAUGHN. Well, I don't know, not being familiar with the various phases upon which claim might be made for relief, that I could give any specific recommendations. I might say that the Pimas as a tribe of people are a very fine character of citizens. They are good workers. They are real agriculturists. I recall now that about 1920 or 1921 they took 15 blue ribbons at the Arizona State Fair, with a very small amount of water which was available during that time for their lands. They are not like the Plains Indians, such as the Sioux or nomadic hunting tribes of Indians; the women do practically all of the work and the men are hunters. These Indians are real farmers, and I take it from history and records they were farming on the Gila River for hundreds of years before a white man ever came to this country. They boast, and they have a right, I think, to be very proud of the fact that they can claim that they never shed a white man's blood. The Pimas are, I think, practically all a Christian nation of Indians. There may be a few of them who are not, but my understanding is that practically the entire tribe are members of some Christian Church, and that, I do not believe, can be said of the other tribes generally. I at one time employed a crew of Indians