why, the land is put up and it is bid for and then they can have a 20-year lease under those circumstances. Mr. BOWDEN. Would you recommend a limitation be placed on the amount of land that could be leased to any particular individual? Mr. BABBITT. The State constitution, when it was adopted, limited the acreage to one section. The result was that the cattlemen had to go out and have Tom, Dick, and Harry, and Bill, and everybody else lease a section of land in his name. The State afterwards saw the folly of it and repealed the act. Now, we lease to one person as many sections as he needs. Mr. BOWDEN. It is your opinion that that system has worked out very, very desirably?' Mr. BABBITT. I think it is desirable. Mr. BOWDEN. In the event that the Government should lease its public domain, do you think it would be necessary or desirable to provide in the act for some board to hear and determine disputes between the users or prospective users of the land and the executive officer administering the land? Mr. BABBITT. Why, I doubt that it would be a good idea to leave the entire power in the hands of the Executive. It seems to me that there would be questions arising that would require some one who was not directly interested in the question to go over and hear the evidence and probably pass in review. Mr. BOWDEN. The existence of your land board does not greatly encumber the administration of your lands? Mr. BABBITT. Not at all. Not at all. It is very seldom that an appeal goes to the court. Once in a while a case is taken to court, as I say, but a person will come in, and if he feels that he has not had a square deal from the commission, why, he is not down and out. He has some other place that he can go, and then if the land board hears his case and decides against him, why, an ordinary man feels maybe I am wrong, maybe the other person is right, and I feel that a board of review would be proper. Mr. BOWDEN. You have a stock form or general form of lease? Mr. BABBITT. Yes; we have a regular form. Mr. BOWDEN. You don't happen to have one here to-day? Mr. BABBITT. I can furnish you one. Mr. BOWDEN. If you would, we would be very glad to receive it. Mr. BABBITT. Yes; I will be glad to furnish you with it. Mr. BOWDEN. We would like to have all of your forms. Mr. BABBITT. I will send you up some this afternoon when I the office. go to Senator CAMERON. All right, Mr. Babbitt, thank you very much. (Witness excused.) STATEMENT OF MR. JOHNSON M'AFEE Senator CAMERON. Now, we have here a Pima Indian, who came in here from the Sacatoon Reservation, who wants to be heard so he can go home. Give your full name. Mr. MCAFEE. Johnson McAfee, Sacaton Indian Reservation, Sacaton, Ariz. Senator CAMERON. Do you hold any position out there on the reser vation other than being a settler there? Mr. MCAFEE. Teacher. Senator CAMERON. All right, do you want to state your case? You will have to, because we don't know what you want. Mr. MCAFEE. I might state in the beginning that the Pima Indians have always lived on the land that they are now living on. They have always been an agricultural people, and, in the early days of Arizona, they have been friends of the white man; have protected them from the Apache Indians; and people going to California during the gold rush have been protected, fed, and guided by these Indians from other hostile Indians. At that time they had plenty of water to farm with, and as people began to settle in the State the water has been taken from them, but that did not make them go off the reservation. They are still there now making a living, even without sufficient water. They are a hard working people. If they were not hard working people they could not make a living on that dry desert. We want to be helped by the Government to develop our lands and get it ready for cultivation when the San Carlos dam is finished. The Pima Indians want to be an asset to the State and to the Nation as well, and there is no better way to do that than to help them get a good start, to have his own home-his own farm. You will find in the different parts of the State where the Indian is a hard working man there you will find good citizens, an asset to the State and not a burden. That is what the Pima Indians want. We do not want to be made paupers. We do not want to be a burden on the State or the Nation. We want to be an asset. We want to be given all of the chances to develop the land that has been set aside by the United States Government. We want to be given the first chance. I believe that is all. Senator CAMERON. Well, what have you to suggest in the way that this committee can help you? Mr. MCAFEE. I would suggest that money be appropriated to give the Indians work on their farms to get it ready when water is brought. Senator CAMERON. Did you have any water in the river this year so that you had any chance for a crop? Mr. MCAFEE. None whatever. Senator CAMERON. How long has it been since there has been any water in the Gila River? Mr. MCAFEE. It has been three years now. Senator CAMERON. Then your idea is that if the Government would appropriate some money to build roads which will have to be built in connection with the building of the San Carlos Dam and do it now it would help out? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. That is why you come before this committee, to request that the Government furnish you money during this interim when you have no water and there is no water running in the river or until you get one crop? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. For three years you have been unable to get any crop? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. And there is no work on the reservation at the present time where the Indian boys can go to make a livelihood? Mr. MCAFEE. Nothing except what work they do to provide their provisions. They do not have anything to work at that would give them any great amount of money for other purposes other than the necessaries of life. That is all. Senator CAMERON. Well, there is very little work on the reservation, isn't there? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir; there is very little work. Senator CAMERON. The diversion dam there has been just completed or practically, isn't it? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes. Senator CAMERON. There were a few Indians working on that, was there not? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir; a good many of them. Senator CAMERON. There is no other construction work up in that neighborhood at this time, is there? Mr. MCAFEE. No; not that I know of. Senator CAMERON. Carried on by the Government? Mr. MCAFEE. None. Senator CAMERON. How about the railroad that is being built through that section? Mr. MCAFEE. There are some of the Indian boys working on that. Senator CAMERON. But a majority of the Pima Indians are out of work? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir; a majority of them. Senator CAMERON. And if there was money appropriated at this time to build roads which are necessary to be built, it would be of great assistance to the Pima Indians? Mr. MCAFEE. Very great assistance. Senator CAMERON. I will say to you, for your information, that just before I left Washington I took up this matter with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. As Congress is not in session there is no money which can be appropriated by Congress until the next session of Congress, but the Commissioner of Indian Affairs assured me that there was a fund that would come in in the next fiscal year, July 1, and that he would be only too glad to furnish such moneys as he could for the condition that you have just stated, and I am satisfied that you will get some money soon after the 1st of July to do road work and other necessary work that will come in useful or beneficial to the construction of the San Carlos Dam. Mr. MCAFEE. Very good. Mr. BOWDEN. On your reservation allotments have been made to the individual Indians? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. In many instances, have they not? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. But there is still some land that has not been allotted or has it all been allotted? Mr. MCAFEE. Well, all land that is suitable for agriculture has been allotted. Mr. BOWDEN. But lands not suitable for agriculture have not been allotted? Mr. MCAFEE. Not all of it. Some has been allotted. Mr. BOWDEN. Some has been allotted? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you have an allotment? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Now, your agricultural allotments are in 10-acre tracts? Mr. MCAFEE. Ten-acre tracts. Mr. BOWDEN. How much of that land is being used at the present time for agricultural purposes? Mr. MCAFEE. Only as much as they can get water for. Mr. BOWDEN. Just where you have wells? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. And the balance of the land is used for grazing purposes? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir; but there is hardly anything on that for grazing. Mr. BOWDEN. Are there any leases to private persons on that reservation other than Indians? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes; there is one lease, what we call the Fowler lease. Mr. BOWDEN. How large a lease is that; do you know? Mr. MCAFEE. I could not say. It is quite a large tract. Mr. BOWDEN. There is only one lease, to your knowledge, on that reservation? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes; there is only one lease, to my knowledge, on that reservation. Mr. BOWDEN. Does that lease include any lands that have been allotted to the individual Indians? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Was their consent asked for when those lands were leased? Mr. MCAFEE. No, sir. We don't know anything about it. Mr. BOWDEN. When was that lease made? Mr. MCAFEE. That lease was made, I believe, eight years ago. Mr. BOWDEN. They are only five-year leases, aren't they? Mr. MCAFEE. I could not say. I have never seen-the matter was never brought to the Indians. They have never known anything about it. Mr. BOWDEN. To your knowledge, is there any leasing of Indian lands for grazing purposes now contemplated? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. What do you know about that? Mr. MCAFEE. I think there is a lease contemplated by one named Osborn. Mr. BOWDEN. How large an area; do you know? Mr. MCAFEE. Twenty-five hunderd acres, if I remember right. Mr. BOWDEN. Does that include land which has been allotted to the several Indians? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Has their consent been asked relative to that lease? Mr. MCAFEE. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you familiar with the attitude of the Indians toward leasing their individual lands? Mr. MCAFEE. I am; yes. Mr. BOWDEN. What is their attitude? Mr. MCAFEE. They are very much opposed to leasing. Mr. MCAFEE. Because, in the first place, as I stated in the beginning, that they want to be given the first chance to work their land. When you have leases where you get a few dollars and they take that they don't want to work. You just form a habit in them. Where they give them a few dollars, why, then, they will get the habit of just keeping on doing that, and after awhile you will have a lot of loafers around town in the pool halls, and we don't want that. Mr. BOWDEN. It discourages industry? Mr. MCAFEE. It discourages industry; yes, sir. We want them to work their own land and develop into good citizenship-good citizens of Arizona. That is the thing that should be discredited where you have working Indians. Now, take in the State of Oklahoma where leasing has been going on, what have we got? We have Indians that are physically poor and intellectually lazy and anything that comes from a thing like that. It will ruin the tribe. Mr. BOWDEN. If your land is taken away from you, you have nothing to work with? Mr. MCAFEE. Nothing. Mr. BOWDEN. Who is your Indian superintendent at the present time? Mr. MCAFEE. Mr. Ferris is the superintendent at the present time. Mr. BOWDEN. What is the status of this lease; do you know? Mr. MCAFEE. I can't go into details, because, as I said, anything like that is never brought to our attention. Mr. BOWDEN. The lands you have under allotment are in large part still under trust, aren't they? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes; it is. Mr. BOWDEN. You can't alienate them? Mr. MCAFEE. No. Mr. BOWDEN. Does the Government provide any fund from which you can borrow money? Mr. MCAFEE. Not that I know of; no, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. You can't borrow money from the banks, because you can't give any security? Mr. MCAFEE. No. Mr. BOWDEN. Still you have got to make improvements on your allotments in order to get the benefit of the water that is to come in on the new irrigation project? Mr. MCAFEE. That is what they expect us to do. Mr. BOWDEN. Your problem is that you have no way of financing? Mr. MCAFEE. That is it exactly. Mr. BOWDEN. You can't borrow money, because you can't give security, and the Government has not provided a fund? Mr. MCAFEE. That is it exactly. Mr. BOWDEN. That is your problem? Mr. MCAFEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Now, what recommendation do you make on that? |