stricken, as much as any part of the forest reserve; while there is a part of the White Mountain Reservation which I consider is the best grazing country in Arizona.

Senator CAMERON. Or in the West.

Mr. MARLEY. They derive more benefit than they have on these low countries, and they can not ask for the relief there that they get in these drought-stricken countries; although, considering the price we pay on the Indian reservation in comparison with the forest reserve, I feel as if we were entitled to some relief; that the rate is too high.

Senator CAMERON. What would be your suggestion?

Mr. MARLEY. Well, I would think that for these times that a dollar a head would be ample. I think that that would be all right enough on the reservation. The present rate is altogether too high. Senator CAMERON. I might state for the benefit of the stockgrowers in this audience who are interested in the War Finance Board that the committee is requesting that a man be sent by the War Finance Board from Washington to attend the hearings in Flagstaff, as well as some one to represent the intermediate banks, so that we can see whether any solution can be worked out. Of course, we know that the War Finance Board is soon going out of business, and the intermediate banking bill was passed to take over the different loans that would not be paid up by the time the War Finance Board ceased functioning. I don't know whether it will be possible to regulate it under the present law. Regulation seems to be the idea now of all laws that are passed by Congress. If they can work things around in such a condition that we can get the relief without taking other measures we would be very happy to have them do so. But about all the committee can do at this time is to have these agents of the War Finance Board and the intermediate bank appear before the committee and see if there is any way that this matter can be adjusted so that you can be helped.

Now, is there any other stockman, or any other man that holds a permit on either the national forest or the Indian reservation, who wishes to make a statement to this committee?

Mrs. CORA E. JACKSON (Globe, Ariz.). I should like to say something.

Senator CAMERON. Will you give your full name to the committee?

Mrs. JACKSON. Cora E. Jackson.

Senator CAMERON. Where do you reside?

Mrs. JACKSON. I live about 7 miles down the creek.

Senator CAMERON. Seven miles south?

Mrs. JACKSON. From Globe-no; north of Globe, right down this Pinal Creek.

Senator CAMERON. You are in the cattle business?

Mrs. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the cattle business? Mrs. JACKSON. Well, I have been here on this creek in the cattle business now for 10 years, but I have been in the cattle business in Arizona ever since I was married.

Senator CAMERON. Would you like to make a statement to the committee?

Mrs. JACKSON. Well, I just wanted to find out about this forest, if I could, about this trespass business. Are they allowed to make us pay $3 a head for trespass fees?

Senator ASHURST. You mean on the national forest?

Mrs. JACKSON. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. Well, that is a legal question, and I am going to assume if you will pardon me-I am going to assume the responsibility for my answer. say no; they have no authority under the law to collect grazing fees even, much less trespass fees.

Mrs. JACKSON. Well, we keep our grazing fees paid up in advance always.

Senator ASHURST. They can't collect that from you under the law.

Mrs. JACKSON. But last year they made us move half of our cattle. I wasn't here at the time they were supposed to have counted them, but we had to move them and we lost half of them, the ones that we moved, and they are down there now starving, you might say, and I want to know if they can make me pay a trespass if those cattle graze back where they were raised. They were raised on the Apache Mountains, I guess, what they call the Nigger Wash. I had them there for 10 years. I put them there.

Senator ASHURST. The Representatives of the people are the Senators and the Members of the House of Representatives. We make the laws. We have never made any law allowing any national forest officer to charge any fee for grazing on the national forest reserve, but if, by intimidating the people and bluffing the public into paying, they collect these fees, we can not help it. We have never passed any such law.

Mrs. JACKSON. Well, we have always tried to get along with the people and pay it, up to date, but now we have lost so many cattle I dont' feel we can pay this and I don't feel it is right to make us move our cattle off of there and let them starve to death, and cut us down to 100 head. You know that no family can live on 100 head of cattle. That is what I want to find out. We move our cattle, and you might say they are starving, and we lose all we have, while in the mountains there is brush and they will have a living chance anyway. The forest officials told me awhile back if I had anymore than my permit called for that I would have to pay a trespass on them, and I want to know if those cattle drift back there if they can make me pay that trespass?

Senator ČAMERON. Mr. Pooler, can you enlighten us in regard to this case?

Mr. POOLER. Why, it is my understanding that there has been no trespass case brought against Mrs. Jackson.

Mrs. JACKSON. No; there has been no trespass case, but I was warned to that effect.

Senator CAMERON. You were warned?

Mrs. JACKSON. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. By whom?

Mrs. JACKSON. By Mr. Christensen.

Senator CAMERON. Who is he?

Mrs. JACKSON. He is the forest officer.

Senator CAMERON. The forest ranger of your district?

Mrs. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. POOLER. Of course, Mr. Chairman, we insist that under the law we can collect trespass fees, if that trespass exists, and that we also have authority under the law to collect grazing fees, and that has been settled in the courts on numerous occasions. Now, if you would like to hear from Mr. Christensen on the subject of this particular case, he is present and would be very glad to testify. Senator CAMERON. Has there been any trespass?

Mrs. JACKSON. There has been no trespass. I wanted to know if they can make me pay trespass in case those cattle drift back, instead of having to herd them. We have been having to hold them, ride a line on them, to keep them from going back on that forest where they were raised. Of course we would sell the cattle if we could sell them, but we can not sell them and get anything for them.

Senator CAMERON. You would rather sell them and go out of business?

Mrs. JACKSON. Yes; I would, but we can not sell them.
Senator CAMERON. There is no market for them?

Mrs. JACKSON. There is no market for them, but I hate to see them stand there and die if there is any way for them to go back and have a living chance while there is still feed.

Senator CAMERON. I don't think under such circumstances they will impose a penalty upon you.

Mrs. JACKSON. That is what I want to find out, because I am not able to pay $3 a head on them. It is crowding us to buy feed and to feed horses to take care of them.

Senator CAMERON. No; I don't think they will disturb you.

Col. W. B. GREELEY (Chief Forest Service, Department of Agriculture). Mr. Chairman, it is, of course, the policy of the Forest Service to deal with those cases just as leniently as possible. I just wanted to point out to the committee that the question of authority to charge fees to prevent trespass and to settle for trespass has been decided on three different occasions by the Supreme Court of the United States, and I don't see how there can be any question as to the power of the Department of Agriculture, under those decisions of the Supreme Court. Of course I am not a lawyer, and I am not disposed to go into that matter-simply bring it in at this time.

Senator CAMERON. Colonel Greeley, of course you may be within the law, as you state, and the law may be so interpreted by the Supreme Court of the United States. But under conditions as we all know them to exist at the present time it seems to me a penalty imposed upon any of these people would be a pretty harsh measure. I agree with you that we should deal with these situations just as leniently as possible.

Senator ASHURST. If you will pardon me, under our system of law whenever a man is imprisoned he is entitled to know just what section of the law it was that imprisoned him. Whenever the Government takes from a man or a citizen any sum of money, he is entitled to know the particular statute that took that money from him. I assert here, and I have asserted elsewhere, that Congress has never passed a law authorizing any bureau or department of the Government of the United States to collect money for grazing cattle or sheep on a national forest, and I defy-in a courteous way I defy any lawyer in the United States to show me a statute which

will authorize any agency of the Government to collect money from anybody for grazing stock on the national forests. It can not be done, because it does not exist.

Colonel GREELEY. That is correct.

There is no such statute.

Senator ASHURST. That is all I want to know.

Colonel GREELEY. But Congress has given certain definite powers to the Secretary of Agriculture.

Senator ASHURST. But it never gave any power to collect fees. Colonel GREELEY. And the Supreme Court of the United States has held that those powers include the authority to charge fees for grazing.

Senator ASHURST. The Supreme Court also held once, in a case called the Dred Scott case, that a human being had no rights, but that was reversed, and the Supreme Court has reversed itself many times. The Supreme Court, when it decided that, made a law. The Supreme Court has no authority to make laws. Congress makes laws. I don't want to stir up any opposition in this State against the rules, but I want my constituents and the constituents of Senator Cameron to know that when they pay grazing fees they are paying something that Congress never required them to pay. That is all I want to go into the record.

Colonel GREELEY. Senator, the law that we have to take and operate under is the law that is construed by the Supreme Court.

Senator ASHURST. I know it is construed and twisted and distorted to mean that you can collect the fees, but under our law he who collects money from another must show that there is a statute that authorizes it in plain, specific terms. That is all I have to say, that there is no positive enacted law requiring anybody to pay grazing fees on a national forest, and I stand on that statement. I don't care if a thousand other lawyers disagree with me. I know what I am talking about.

Senator CAMERON. Is there any other person who desires to appear before this committee?

Mr. J. W. MATTICE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a statement in regard to what Mr. Kitch has said in his behalf, and that was he thought really he was misunderstood, that he was making it rather hard on us in the way of collecting grazing fees. I just wanted to state this for his benefit as well as mine: That he has been very lenient in extending the time from time to time with us and has treated us very nicely all the way through. I believe that is all. Senator CAMERON. Now, is there any other cattleman here that wishes to make a statement, or anybody interested in cattle? How about the mining men?

Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Chairman.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Bowden.

Mr. BOWDEN. L. C. Kelly, a lessee on the San Carlos Indian Reservation, has addressed a telegram to Mr. A. T. Crocker relative to grazing fees on the San Carlos Reservation. Mr. Kelly now has twenty-five hundred head of cattle on that reservation. The telegram is as follows:

Impossible for me to be at meeting. Am heartily in accord with this move. Would appreciate having you represent my interests. Will stand our pro rata part of any expense necessary in order to get fees omitted or reduced. Anything you can do along these lines will be appreciated. Letter follows. L. C. KELLY.

Senator CAMERON. If there is nothing further to come before the committee, we will adjourn to meet in Phoenix to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock. On behalf of the committee I desire to thank you one and all for your attendance and cooperation.

(Whereupon, at 2.30 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned to reconvene at Phoenix, Ariz., on Wednesday, June 10, 1925, at 10 o'clock a. m.)