allotted to white persons and to increase the area to be allotted to Indians? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. You are being driven off. There is a tendency to drive you off the reservation? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. In fact, I think they are cutting pretty nearly all the permittees. I think they are cutting them to a certain extent. Mr. BOWDEN. Is there any other range which you can get in the event that you are driven off the reservation? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you made improvements on the reservation? Mr. ARMER. I have made some. Mr. BOWDEN. How much money have you expended, in general figures, for improving your leasehold? Mr. ARMER. Well, we built lots of fence there, and you know it would be pretty hard, just off-handed, to say. Mr. BOWDEN. But in general numbers, to make a fair index of what has been expended in improvements. Mr. ARMER. Well, I would say we have spent $10,000 in building fence. Mr. BOWDEN. In the event you are to be deprived of your lease, you are to be given nothing for those improvements? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Senator ASHURST. You get nothing for your improvements? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. How many head of cattle are you running on the reservation now? Mr. ARMER. I have a permit for about 1,500. Mr. BOWDEN. You have no place to take these cattle? Mr. ARMER. Not unless we shipped them out. Mr. BOWDEN. Does the Indian agent pay any attention to the loss that you may have to suffer? Mr. I am the Indian agent, I think, has been there once, and I have been there 10 years. I think one time is all I ever saw him down there. Mr. BOWDEN. On the forest reserve do you see any objection to system of leasing whereby the user can get a certain allotment of range for a given period of time? putting in a Mr. ARMER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. BOWDEN. In your forest is there any saw timber? Mr. ARMER. There is some, very poor. Mr. BOWDEN. What percentage of the area would that cover? Mr. ARMER. Well, it is awfully small. Mr. BOWDEN. It would not cover 40 per cent, would it, of the whole area of the forest? Mr. ARMER. I don't think it will take 20 per cent of it; that is, real timber. that is the only commercial value it has? Mr. BOWDEN. The chief value of that land is for grazing purposes; Mr. ARMER. That is the only commercial value. Mr. BOWDEN. Would you be in favor of acre allotments on the forest? Mr. ARMER. I would. Mr. BOWDEN. With preference given to prior users? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. You have heard the testimony here this morning relative to the creation of some board to which appeal could be taken, a board outside of the Forest Service. Would you be in favor of such an agency? Mr. ARMER. I would. Mr. BOWDEN. It might slow up decisions? Mr. ARMER. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. But it would Mr. ARMER. We would have a chance to appeal some place. Mr. BOWDEN. You would have greater assurance? Mr. ARMER. It looks to me like it. Mr. BOWDEN. How long ago did this controversy take place in which you were alleged to have trespassed and a fine was levied upon you? Mr. ARMER. In 1919. Mr. BOWDEN. Has that fine ever been collected? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. But still you are not permitted to run cattle on that, because of the trespass; is that true? Mr. ARMER. I have had cattle there all the time, but just this last year they said they couldn't grant me a permit until that fine was paid up. Mr. BOWDEN. A 10-year permit, you mean? Mr. ARMER. Any permit. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Armer, how many miles is it from here to the White River Indian Agency? Mr. ARMER. It is about 8 miles. Senator CAMERON. You say you have only seen the Indian agent once during the time of your present permit on the reservation? Mr. ARMER. That is the only time he has ever been down there. That is the only time he has ever been down on our allotment to our knowledge. Senator CAMERON. Through what agency or agent does he keep track of the reservation? Mr. ARMER. They have stockmen. Senator CAMERON. They have stockmen? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Appointed by the commissioner? Mr. ARMER. No; appointed by the agent. Senator CAMERON. He hires and discharges his own agents? Mr. ARMER. He hires his own. It is this way, as I understand it: The agent hires these men, appoints them, just the same as we hire our cowpunchers. That is the way I have always been told. Senator CAMERON. Do you know whether these men have been practical stockmen or not? Mr. ARMER. Some of them have. As far as I know, the ones we had have been stockmen, I think. Senator CAMERON. Men who are familiar with the range conditions and the actual condition in Arizona, the condition of the cattle industry? Mr. ARMER. They should be, yes; they are all familiar with it. Senator CAMERON. I think that will be all. (Whereupon, at 12 m., the committee recessed until 1.30 p. m.) AFTER RECESS The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., in the court room of the Federal court at Globe, Ariz., Senator Ralph H. Cameron presiding. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Wanslee, will you come forward. Give your name for the record. THOMAS WANSLEE (White River, Ariz.). I live on Fort Apache Reservation, White River. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Bowden, will you examine Mr. Wanslee? Mr. BOWDEN. Are you in the cattle business? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. How long have you lived at your present location? Mr. WANSLEE. About 12 years. Mr. BOWDEN. During that time have you been in the cattle business? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you a family? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you grazing any cattle at the present time? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, I am. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you ever grazed any cattle on lands owned by the Federal Government? Mr. WANSLEE. No; nothing but the Indian reservation. Mr. BOWDEN. You have on the Indian reservation? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes; on the Indian reservation. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you a lease on that reservation at the present time? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. That is the Apache Reservation? Mr. WANSLEE. Apache Reservation. Mr. BOWDEN. How long have you been a lessee on that reservation? Mr. WANSLEE. About 12 years. Mr. BOWDEN. When will your present lease expire? Mr. WANSLEE. In October, 1927, I believe. Mr. BOWDEN. Then you have a lease on that reservation until Octo ber of the year 1927? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you received any notification relative to the cancellation of that lease? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. When did you receive that notification? Mr. WANSLEE. I was notified by the superintendent that owing to the drought and the increase of the Indian cattle that he would have to take my range for Indian purposes. Mr. BOWDEN. When will he take your range away from you? Mr. WANSLEE. He wanted a part of it May 1 and the balance November 1, this year. Mr. BOWDEN. Then he has notified you that he will take your lease away from you in the year 1925, although your lease runs until October, 1927? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you got any improvements on the range? 43213-25-PT 415 Mr. BOWDEN. What improvements have you made? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, my improvements in the way of corrals and fences, buildings. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you developed any water? Mr. WANSLEE. Developing water, repairing tanks, building fences. Mr. BOWDEN. How much would you say you have expended in improvements upon that range? Mr. WANSLEE. Oh, I would say between eight and ten thousand dollars. Mr. BOWDEN. Has the superintendent notified you that he will reimburse you in any way for those improvements in the event he takes your range away from you? Mr. WANSLEE. He told me he might give me a hundred dollars for my building. Mr. BOWDEN. But that is all he would give you? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Is there any other range in that neighborhood to which you can go? Mr. WANSLEE. No. Mr. BOWDEN. Then, to take the range away from you means to give you no place for you to run your cattle? Mr. WANSLEE. None whatever. Mr. BOWDEN. And you lose all of those improvements? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What is the name of this Indian superintendent? Mr. WANSLEE. Charles L. Davis. Mr. BOWDEN. Are there any Indian cattle on that reservation? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. There are cattle that are owned by individual Indians? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. On the reservation, then, there is a tribal herd; is that true? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes; I think there are two herds. One is called a school herd and one the tribal herd. Mr. BOWDEN. To your knowledge, have any of those herds increased during the last three years, those Indian herds? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, I believe that the tribal herd and the school herd have increased. Mr. BOWDEN. Is any part of the tribal herd or the school herd fit for market at the present time? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes; I should say so. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you wish to make any further comment on that? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, I couldn't say positively as to the number. It is just hearsay. I have seen a number of these steers; they claimed all of five or six hundred aged steers. Mr. BOWDEN. Five or six hundred aged steers? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. That could be marketed at this time? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. But they are not being marketed, to your knowledge? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, they are using them for butchering purposes. At the Indian school at White River, and also the trader at White River, is butchering out of these cattle and running a meat market at White River. Mr. BOWDEN. These butchers are licensed to sell meat on the reservation to the white people? Mr. WANSLEE. Just one butcher. Mr. BOWDEN. What is that butcher's name? Mr. WANSLEE. Charles Elkins. Mr. BOWDEN. What does he pay for his beef? Mr. WANSLEE. The year around. Mr. BOWDEN. Are there any regulations relative to the cattle that he can purchase for beef purposes? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, my understanding is, from Mr. Elkins, that he is not allowed to buy any cattle but the Indians' herd. Mr. BOWDEN. That is the tribal or school herds? Mr. WANSLEE. That is the tribal or school herds. Mr. BOWDEN. The Indians can not sell their herds to this butcher, then, their private herds! Mr. WANSLEE. That is my understanding. Mr. BOWDEN. Is 6 cents a fair price? Mr. WANSLEE. I would consider it pretty fair; yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Is it in excess of what you have had paid? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, about double what we are getting. Mr. BOWDEN. The white cattlemen would be willing to sell at 3 cents a pound to this butcher? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, we have been trying the last three or four years to get about four. Sometimes it gets down to three. Mr. BOWDEN. But you would be willing to sell at a substantially less price than the 6 cents? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. You have informed the Indian superintendent to that effect? Mr. WANSLEE. Well, not exactly, but we have tried: I have tried personally to sell to Elkins, but he told me he couldn't buy any cattle but the I. D. herd. Mr. BOWDEN. Elkins, of course, could sell his meat cheaper to the Indians and to the white people there if he could buy it at 3 cents or 4 cents than he could at 6 cents? Mr. WANSLEE. I should think so. Mr. BOWDEN. Now, this money derived from the sale of this beef goes into the Government coffers? Mr. WANSLEE. That is my understanding. Mr. BOWDEN. If the Indians sell their own cattle, of course that would go to enrich the individual Indians? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. You have a five-year leasee on the Indian reservations, haven't you? Mr. WANSLEE. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Is that a long enough lease in order to establish a stability of tenure needed for proper running of the stock industry? Mr. WANSLEE. I don't think so. Mr. BOWDEN. What recommendations would you have to make on that? |