Senator ASHURST. Now, in your judgment as an expert cowman, would you say that the forage on these forests this year was worth a dollar a head? Mr. ARMER. I couldn't see where it was. I had to take our horses-I didn't take them out, but I had to feed my horses most all winter to keep them alive. Senator ASHURST. Although you were paying a dollar a head, you had to feed your horses? Mr. ARMER. Yes; I had to feed my horses grain all winter. Senator ASHURST. You had to feed your horses grain to keep them alive? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. How about 1924? Was the forage worth the fee that year? Mr. ARMER. It was not; no. Senator ASHURST. But you paid the fee? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And 1923? Mr. ARMER. The same thing. Senator ASHURST. Was the forage and grasses poor in quality? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And yet you paid the fee? Mr. ARMER. I paid the fees. Senator ASHURST. Now, we will go back as far as 1923. Would you say that the grasses that grew upon the forest and for which you paid a dollar a head were worth 50 cents a head in 1923? Mr. ARMER. Well, I don't know how you would determine what it was worth. Senator ASHURST. Well, you are a practical stockman. Do you think it was worth 50 cents a head? Mr. ARMER. Well, I would hate to say it was. Senator ASHURST. In 1924, of course, last year, it was not worth 50 cents, or even 25 cents, is that true? Mr. ARMER. As a matter of fact, you know for the last five years here we have had but very little grass. Senator ASHURST. That is what I want to bring out. For the past five years you have had very little grass? Mr. ARMER. Yes. Senator ASHURST. Although you have been paying the dollar a head, have you? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Now, Mr. Webb's statement was that when the national forests in this vicinity were created in 1906 the fee was first fixed at 35 cents a head. Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And then later at 65 cents a head? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And then a dollar? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Now, is it not a fact, with possibly one or two exceptionally good years, that the price of your "critters," your animals, has diminished, although the fees have been increased? Mr. ARMER. I think so, with the exception of a few years along during the war time, they went up. Senator ASHURST. I say, you had some good years. During the war advance in prices, you had some good years? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir; we had high prices of cattle; too. Senator ASHURST. But as a rule cattle have not increased in value? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Senator ASHURST. As a general principle, but the fees have increased? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Now, I want to advert for a moment to this controversy that is now pending between you and the national forest with regards to the range. You say you are not a permittee at this time, but you are trying to compose the difficulty. Mr. ARMER. Yes; they haven't issued me any permit. Senator ASHURST. You applied for a permit? Mr. ARMER. Well, I did for the company. Senator ASHURST. In behalf of your company you applied for a permit? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. They would grant you none? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Would you give the name of the cattle com pany? Mr. ARMER. The Flying H Cattle Co. Senator ASHURST. Do you know why your permit has not been granted? Mr. ARMER. Well, because I haven't paid this trespass. Senator ASHURST. Because you have not paid a trespass? Now, are you aware of the fact that Congress has never passed a law authorizing the Forestry Bureau to charge fees for grazing of livestock? Mr. ARMER. No; I wasn't. Senator ASHURST. There is no such law. Mr. ARMER. I heard it. is no man who can put his finger on any statute authorizing anybody to charge fees for grazing livestock on a national forest. I notice that the report backfired when I said there was no law allowing the collection of grazing fees. Now, then, you are being penalized and your business damaged very much, if not ruined; you stand some change of being ruined, simply because you have not paid a fee which Congress has never authorized to be collected? Mr. ARMER. Absolutely. Senator ASHURST. Congress makes the laws. Our judges interpret the law. Our President and his Cabinet enforce the laws which Congress makes. Yet we find the Forestry Bureau, which is under the Department of Agriculture, making laws and enforcing penalties against citizens, although there is no authority lodged in the Department of Agriculture or any other department to make laws. You are suffering because a bureau of the Government that has no power to make laws is actually making laws. Mr. ARMER. Absolutely. I don't know whether you would call it laws or arbitrary rulings. the fact that the Department of Agriculture is not reinforced by any Senator ASHURST. Yes; arbitrary rulings. Well, notwithstanding statute that the people's representatives have ever made permitting it to collect fees, the cattlemen still would be willing to pay a fair fee, would they not? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. You think they would be willing to pay a fair grazing fee; you would be willing? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Would you favor the leasing of the public domain that is eligible for grazing, provided in the law it was specified that those who had prior rights, developed water, and had used this range should have a preference; would you favor such a law? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir; I would. Senator ASHURST. Do you think that if such a law is passed that the leasing to stockmen should be based on the per acre or on the per head charge? Mr. ARMER. I think it should be based on the per acre. Senator ASHURST. Now, I am jumping back to these nationalforest grazing fees again. Even if the dollar a head should stand. Although it might appear to be high and burdensome, if you had an absolute tenure of 10 years, you could even stand the dollar possibly if you had an absolute 10-year permit? Mr. ARMER. Well, we would possibly stand the dollar if we were to get rain. Senator ASHURST. Yes; if you had any rainfall, and a certainty of tenure, even the oppressive dollar could stand, but you can't stand the oppressive dollar a head with a poor market, no rains. and an uncertain tenure? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Senator ASHURST. And those things, the poor markets, oppressive fees, and harsh, tyrannical rules, will about wipe out the stock industry here, won't they? Mr. ÄRMER. I think they will. Senator ASHURST. Now, when a fire breaks out on the national forest what is the attitude of the common citizen? Does he refuse to help fight fire, or is it a fact that he employs his own time and means in helping fight fire? Mr. ARMER. He is supposed to fight this fire, and all his employees, if he is on as a permittee. Senator ASHURST. At his own expense. Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And he fights the fire? Mr. ARMER. I will agree that has not been enforced very much, but at the same time it could be enforced. Senator ASHURST. As a matter of fact, now, all permittees always respond and help fight fires? Mr. ARMER. Absolutely. Senator ASHURST. Did you ever know in your experience of a man that refused? Mr. ARMER. I have not. Senator ASHURST. You have never known a citizen in this community refusing to fight fire; never heard of it. Mr. ARMER. Not to my knowledge. Senator ASHURST. You never did? You never rode away? You have always helped? Mr. ARMER. I have always helped. Senator ASHURST. And instructed your employees to help? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And that is true of all your neighbors? Mr. ARMER. As far as I know it is; yes. Senator ASHURST. I won't cover the same ground that Mr. Webb covered, with reference to the supervisors of this national forest? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. You heard that? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. You heard Mr. Webb's statement that they were nonresidents of Arizona? Mr. ARMER. As to Mr. Swift, I couldn't say, but as to the rest of them, I think they were all nonresidents. Senator ASHURST. Not familiar with this country? Mr. ARMER. They were practically strangers to the country. In fact, they were strangers to me when they came to our country, I know. Senator ASHURST. You observed their work? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Did they appear to be strangers to their duties? Mr. ARMER. Well, to me they did. Senator ASHURST. They were what we call tenderfeet, weren't they? Mr. ARMER. They were tenderfeet to that country; I know that. They may have known the forest regulations, but as far as knowing the country Senator ASHURST. They knew what the book said about the forest? Mr. ARMER. Yes. Senator ASHURST. They knew all about what the book said, but they didn't know the actual, physical, practical problems of this forest, did they? Mr. ARMER. They didn't of our country, I am satisfied. Mr. BOWDEN. You have been a lessee on the Apache Reserva tion? Mr. ARMER. No; on the White Mountain. Mr. BOWDEN. Who is the supervising agent there? Mr. ARMER. Well, at the present time it is Mr. Davis-Charles L. Davis. Mr. BOWDEN. Where are his headquarters? Mr. ARMER. White River. cattle that run on the reservation? Mr. BOWDEN. You are familiar with the ownership of the Indian Mr. ARMER. To some extent. Mr. BOWDEN. Is it true that they have certain cattle that are 66 Mr. ARMER. They have got what they call the tribal herds. Mr. BOWDEN. In addition to these Indian cattle; that is, the cattle owned by the Indians, and the tribal herds, which are under the supervision of the Government directly, there are herds of licensees, white people, on those Indian reservations? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Your tenure on the Indian reservation is fixed by lease? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. And that lease is a five-year lease? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. And the lease provides that you are to have for a period of five years certain ranges for which you are to pay so much per head for the number of cattle or livestock that you run on that range; is that true? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir; that is the way. It has been done that way. It is done that way. They allot a piece of country. You go out there. Say they give us a piece of country and that is allotted to us. They figure how many cattle that will carry, and that is what they charge us—so much a head for that many cattle? Mr. BOWDEN. When does your present lease expire? Mr. ARMER. We have got a new one coming up. Mr. BOWDEN. Has your old one expired? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir; we haven't received our new one yet. Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Is meat sold on that Indian reserve? Mr. ARMER. Is meat? Mr. BOWDEN. Yes. Mr. ARMER. Some. Mr. BOWDEN. Who sells meat there? Mr. ARMER. Well, up there around those agencies they have butcher shops. Mr. BOWDEN. Who furnishes meat for the butcher shop? Mr. ARMER. Well, I think that some there is bought from the Indians and fellows that might be around, white permittees there. Mr. BOWDEN. Some of it is bought from white permittees? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you know any of your neighbors who have received notification to get off the Indian reserve at the present time. although their leases haven't expired? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Though their leases had not expired? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Is any compensation given to you for the improvements that you have made on the reservation in the event that your lease is canceled? Mr. ARMER. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Is preference given previous users in determining who shall have the lease on an Indian reservation? Mr. ARMER. Well, they were supposed to; yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Was preference given? Mr. ARMER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. At the present time is there a movement on foot in the reservation in which you run cattle to reduce the area to be |