laws to apply to the present needs of the mining business. We have plenty of laws, that is true, but we have not enough mining laws, in my opinion.

Mr. BOWDEN. Under the present law there is no limitation on the number of claims you can patent.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. Not if you keep up your assessment work.
Mr. BOWDEN. You would not want to place a limit on it?

Mr. HARSHBERGER. I don't think it is advisable.

Mr. BOWDEN. But there is a limit on the size of any claim that can be patented?

Mr. HARSHBERGER. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. And your recommendation is to increase the size of that claim?

Mr. HARSHBERGER. No; you are mistaken.

Mr. BOWDEN. What is your recommendation?

Mr. HARSHBERGER. The present mining claim of 1,500 by 600, I think, could not very well be improved upon for mining needs. The Government only requires an expenditure of a hundred dollars a year to keep up that amount of ground, and if the ground is worth anything, it is worth $100 to keep it up. If it isn't worth anything a man has no business to take it; he should let it go.

Another thing, I believe that the prospector and miner has a greater knowledge of the mine that he locates and takes up than anyone else. If he is willing to go ahead and spend his money that the law demands that he spend upon it, I think it is up to the Government to back him up. If he wants to patent that little body of ground and he is willing to do it, let him patent it. He must show mineral in place, but he is not going to do that work, Senator, unless there is something there, he isn't going to do it.

Senator. CAMERON. Under the present rulings of the Department of the Interior or the General Land Office, which is the same thing, it is almost impossible for a man to get a patent to a mining claim at the present time.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. It is; unless he has little apex.

Senator CAMERON. He must have that, and he must have more than that.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. He must find mineral in place.
Senator CAMERON. Yes; and in paying quantities.
Mr. HARSHBERGER. Yes; in paying quantities.

Senator CAMERON. Well, who is going to be the judge of that?
Mr. HARSHBERGER. There you are.

Senator CAMERON. Is it the man who is putting up his money, paying the Government $5 an acre, the highest price paid for Government land?

Mr. HARSHBERGER. They won't accept his judgment on it.

Senator CAMERON. They won't accept his judgment, but they will accept the judgment of a special agent, who, in most cases, in my experience, knows very little about mining. They come out here and make an adverse report, because they say you are not spending your money as a prudent man.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. Sure, they won't turn me down, because I will show it, but they do do it. For instance, a case of that sort just comes to my mind. The man applied for a patent on his ground. Sufficient work had been done for patenting. There were three sides-this is

only a small property-only six claims. On three sides of this property there have been over $13,000,000 of gold taken out. Is it possible that this is barren ground? No, indeed, but he has got it on one or two of the claims. They turned it down. He didn't have mineral in place. But he should have had title to all that ground, because the mineral is there.

Senator ASHURST. I think you will find that this subcommittee and some of the members of the main committee are quite sympathetic, and we are glad to have had your views.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. Well, sympathy goes a long way, but we want some action.

Senator ASHURST. Senator Cameron is the chairman. He will put it broader than that, even.

Senator CAMERON. Well, I will put it this way, and say that unless we get a modification of the present mining laws, or pass a new law that will fit the conditions of the mining business, the mining business in Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada will be at a standstill.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. Where are all of our old prospectors to-day? They used to go out and find their little mine. They have left this country. They have gone away. They are not here. They are not finding something new. It isn't the capitalists that find mines. It is the prospector, who goes out and locates his little claims, hunts them up, and puts them together. But it is not so to-day. If he can not get his title he must stay right there and keep on working year after year. Suppose he locates a tracts of land that is commercially worth millions of dollars. At the same time he could not make a living on that mine, Senator. He couldn't do it. It is impossible. He couldn't take out low-grade ore; he couldn't ship that ore, even if it were valuable enough. But the value is there. The value is in the State of Arizona, and the mining industry of the State of Arizona is the greatest industry that the State has to-day, and the prospector should be fostered instead of hindered, in my opinion.

Senator CAMERON. I wish you would take this bill that has been prepared and introduced by me and see if it does not meet the requirements.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. I will be glad to.

Senator CAMERON. I will have some copies of it sent here. We have some with us, but it was submitted to the Bisbee Chamber of Commerce, and they have made one or two small amendments. I would like to get it in shape so that as soon as Congress convenes I can either reintroduce that or a new bill. I think you will find that I am getting at the point that you have been trying to bring out here to-day.

Mr. HARSHBERGER. I believe that you have, and I know that you want all the assistance that you can possibly get. If I could just get a copy of that I would be glad to study it and make any suggestions which I think advisable.

Senator CAMERON. Have you anything further to offer?

Mr. HARSHBERGER. Why, nothing, unless you have some questions. Senator CAMERON. I think of nothing else.

Mr. J. W. STINSON (Tucson, Ariz.). I would like to speak briefly on southern Arizona and my country.

Senator CAMERON. We shall be very glad to have you do so.

Mr. STINSON. I have been a great advocate of southern Arizona as a possibility, a good 50-50 break, for oil and gas. During Senator's Ashurst's first term I tried to have the Senator introduce, and I believe he did so, a bill to the effect that the Government will appropriate $150,000 for a test well.

Senator ASHURST. For a test well?

Mr. STINSON. For a test well, at a certain point this side of Benson. I have kept myself about broke, Senator, trying to promote that and not let it die. In my opinion, that is the only thing that will ever redeem Arizona again, because the cattle industry is gone, the mining is gone, and I presume the oil will be gone, too, as soon as we get it opened up a little bit.

Now, I would suggest to you, gentlemen, you Senators at Washington, D. C., that you modify the Government leasing oil bill, giving a man the privilege of just double the amount that you do and giving him all if he strikes oil, plus a per cent, because you can't get any company to take hold of Government ground for oil, with the amount of ground that you have allotted, under the present laws. You ask why? Why, they say, "We don't propose to open up ground and give the other man the opportunity to come in and be our enemy. I know from my own experience that I can not get anyone to come in there with what little ground I have. I have got State land leased. I know I have good ground, but I haven't got enough. I am hoping that the other man will be lucky enough to bring in a field so that I can get something out of it.

Senator CAMERON. What would you suggest as to the amount of land?

Mr. STINSON. I would suggest that you introduce a bill in the Senate of the United States giving the prospector the privilege of just twice the amount of land that you have already allotted, and give him all of the proceeds from that ground in a wildcat field to induce him to come in and drill. Now, of course, I couldn't put down a well. You are all aware of that. I have got to interest somebody that has the money to put the well down. You can't begin to think of getting anyone interested in putting a well on four sections of ground that Uncle Sam allots for that purpose.

Senator CAMERON. That is the present lease law?

Mr. STINSON. That is the present lease law.

Senator CAMERON. What is the royalty given to the Government under the present law?

Mr. STINSON. If I understand the law, they give you a lease of 4 sections of ground, 4 sections in a row or in a body. If you strike oil on that ground, you are entitled to 1 section and the other 3 sections are put up at public auction and sold. Well, who gets it? Senator CAMERON. The man who has the money.

Mr. STINSON. You can draw your own conclusions, but for fear you won't come to the conclusion that I have I will name the parties who will get it.

Senator CAMERON. Very well.

Mr. STINSON. John D. Rockefeller and his subsidiaries, Doheny, the Union Oil Co., the Southern Pacific-they will be the boys that get it, at my expense and that of my friends. I am perfectly willing to go 50-50 with big business any time, help them out all that I can.

Now, apropos of the subject, I want to present to you something that came from Willcox. They say it came from a leaky pipe, but the leaky pipe is still leaking. Now, we know good and well if that pipe was really leaking that the Southern Pacific would do more firing than a little to get the man responsible for it out of the job. The oil is actually there. I do not know how it came there, unless God Almighty in His infinite wisdom put it there. If it is a leak in the pipe, it has got to go down about 40 feet. I call it "dyrenite oil, because it has got to go 40 feet in the water and then come out to the well to get out. There is as much as 20 gallons of that liquid skimmed off of the water every day and about the same amount skimmed off that goes through the intake pipe, which is pumped 40 or 50 feet down in the well. Now, you gentlemen can form your own. conclusions whether that is a fake or not.

Senator ASHURST. Where did you say this came from?

Mr. STINSON. From the Southern Pacific well at Willcox. Mr. Dyer, the general superintendent of the Southern Pacific Railroad, states that it is leakage. I wrote him a letter the other day, and I said, "Mr. Dyer, that pipe is still leaking, and we think it would be no more than right for you to fix the leak, because the people are getting somewhat angry having their water polluted with oil down in their wells.”

Senator CAMERON. Your suggestion, then, is that the committee recommend a modification of the present lease law as to oil lands? Mr. STINSON. Oil and gas, and oil phosphates.

Senator CAMERON. And double the amount of acreage?

Mr. STINSON. And double the amount of acreage, because you can not get capital to go in and take four sections of Uncle Sam's land and drill a hole and give the other man an opportunity to come in. there and benefit by his labor and money. You have got to give him a little bit more acreage. I would suggest that you introduce a bill which will modify the law to read like this: That Uncle Sam receive one-eighth royalty, the same as the State of Arizona does from its land, which was granted to it. The State has taken up most all of the good oil-bearing ground. From El Paso-well, I am getting out of the State-we will say from the State line the other side of San Simon plumb to Yuma, if there is anyone that doesn't know that that is a fair oil ground, why I don't know what to say, but I think he is a darn fool, because we do know that we have got everything that is required in an oil field to make an oil field. Some say it is burnt up, and some say it isn't.

Senator CAMERON. What you want is a bill that will justify a prudent man in going on and taking a lease, so that he will have a chance to live, providing he did strike oil.

Mr. STINSON. Providing he did strike oil.

Senator CAMERON. And he takes all the gamble?

Mr. STINSON. We can not very well ask the Government, because we know we would be turned down, but I have oftentimes thought it would be nothing more than right if the Government would help us out a little bit.

Senator ASHURST. Do you know how much of this oil there is there?

Mr. STINSON. Well, sir, when it was first discovered the tank contained 65,000 gallons. There were 18 inches of that oil in the tank. Now, you figure it out yourself. If I haven't made any mistake in my figures, if that tank was 30 feet in diameter, it figures 240 barrels of oil. They clean the tank twice a year. There is about half of it comes up on the outside of the intake pipe, and the rest I presume goes through the intake pipe. Now, how it gets there I don't know, unless old Mother Nature put it there. I would like to ask you Senators to take this to Washington and help boost your country. Senator CAMERON. Is there anything further you would like to put before the committee?

Mr. STINSON. No; I have nothing more.

Senator CAMERON. Now, is there anybody else here who wishes to make any statement before the committee before we adjourn? Mr. BRAUN. Mr. Chairman, I didn't know that the oil business was going to be taken up.

Senator CAMERON. Please give your name.

Mr. W. F. BRAUN (Pittsburgh, Pa.). My name is W. F. Braun. I live at Pittsburgh, Pa. I am a I am a practical oil man of 38 years' standing, and I want to say in behalf of the oil men that we have taken up this question with the Government and that the oil men are perfectly satisfied with the amount of acreage that the Government has allotted. I think in Oklahoma it is four thousand and some acres-forty-eight hundred acres, I believe. There may be a little difference in some of these other States; I don't know, but the oil men are perfectly satisfied with the conditions of the oil business, and the regulations prescribed by the Government at the present time. We have committees that go to the Interior Department and have our matters adjusted, and they have been satisfactory. I don't believe that the suggestions made here this afternoon are in accord with the general opinion of the oil men.

Senator ASHURST. Gasoline is now about as high as you can afford to pay, isn't it?

Mr. BRAUN. Well, gasoline is much higher than it ought to be. Senator ASHURST. The bringing in of new oil fields would decrease the price of gasoline to the consumer?

Mr. BRAUN. The bringing in of new oil fields ought to decrease the price. When I was interested in the refining business, some 20 years ago, we were paying 25 cents a barrel more for crude oil than they are paying to-day. We made a gasoline then of 78 per cent gravity, and sold that on board cars at 614 cents a gallon, and made money at that rate. I don't know how much they are making on a barrel to-day, but we made money at 64 cents, by paying 25 cents a barrel more for crude oil than they are paying to-day. The oil that this gentleman has just shown you is no doubt from a water well, what is known as a shallow water well that has been drilled. Now, oil sands have come to the top of the ground in some places in the world, the same as your minerals, and you gentlemen here would call this fissures. In the next State below here, or in all countries where they have shallow oil and where the oil has come through the weaker parts of the sand and filtered itself to a high degree, the same as the New Mexico oil has done, you will find it in water wells near such a field, a showing of oil like this gentleman has shown you here to-day. He asked me this morning as to whether there was