going to continue, and drought conditions on the ranges justify a waiver of the grazing fees for the balance of the calendar year. Those recommendations have been made from July to December 31 for all the forests of Arizona south of the Colorado River and the New Mexico forests likewise affected by drought conditions. Now, I am not in a position to say what, if any, action has been taken outside of this district, but for this district I know that those recommendations were made and have been forwarded to Washington, the forester concurring.

Senator CAMERON. I might say for the benefit of the cattlemen here that just before leaving Washington on last Wednesday a week ago, I called on the President relative to the question of fees, and he assured me of his support. I don't think it will be necessary for the President to make the order, because I understand the Agricultural Department has power to do that. It has been so stated by Mr. Pooler, and I think that is practically settled, is that right, Mr. Pooler?

Mr. POOLER. As far as the recommendations are concerned. Of course I can't speak for the Secretary, but I assume he will act favorably on them.

Senator CAMERON. I am satisfied that he will.

Now, gentlemen, the committee is most thankful to you for having come here and contributing your time and attention. On behalf of the committee I desire to assure you that we appreciate it. As acting chairman of the subcommittee I will state that it is the purpose and endeavor of the committee to work out a solution that will be most beneficial all around. We thank you, gentlemen. We will now take up the mining matters.

Mr. POOLER. Could I add one word on this fee proposition?
Senator CAMERON. Certainly.

Mr. POOLER. I just want to say for myself and associates how very glad I am that the fees could be waived under the circumstances. Senator CAMERON. Is Mr. Carpenter present?

Mr. CARPENTER. Mr. Chairman.

Senator CAMERON. Will you please come forward and give your name?

Mr. MILES M. CARPENTER (Tucson, Ariz.). My name is Miles M. Carpenter.

Senator CAMERON. And your position?

Mr. CARPENTER. Mining engineer, appearing now as the president of the Chamber of Mines, Tucson, Ariz.

Senator CAMERON. You may proceed, Mr. Carpenter, and make any statement you desire.

Mr. CARPENTER. The Chamber of Mines of Tucson, Ariz., held a Special meeting last night and discussed the relation of the public lands and their administration to the mining industry of this section, and there prepared and passed separate resolutions with relation to certain matters upon which the Chamber of Mines in open meeting were unanimous.

The first of those resolutions is as follows:

Whereas the law authorizing stock-raising homesteads created by the act of December 29, 1916 (39 Stat. 862), permits the location of such stock-raising homesteads on lands valuable for coal or other minerals, which law purports to give patent to the surface of such lands to the homestead entryman thereon, and to reserve the coal and minerals underlying to the United States; and

Whereas the said act is contrary to the principle of property rights that has existed in the United States since the beginning of the Nation; and

Whereas the said act is detrimental to the mining industry and especially discouraging to the prospecting and development of new mines for many reasons, among which are mentioned:

First. The principle of double ownership of surface and subsurface rights is disapproved by a large majority of prospectors and mining men.

Second. When the surface of land has been fenced by the grazing entrymen, prospectors are loath to enter the premises to search for mineral, and in certain instances, have been forcibly prevented from so entering.

Third. In many mining operations much of the surface ground around the ore deposit is required in the direct and indirect mining operation.

Fourth. In steam shovel and caving methods of mining the surface of the ground is ruined for any other purpose.

Fifth. The obvious conflict of interest between surface and subsurface rights would lead to constant disputes and litigation and prove a severe handicap in securing capital for development of mines located on stock-raising homesteads, and

Whereas the value of the acreage on which an ore deposit is discovered and developed is incomparably greater than when used for stock raising or any other purpose: Be it therefore

Resolved, That the Chamber of Mines of Tucson, Ariz., on behalf of its membership does hereby protest against the operation of the said homestead stock raising law in so far as it affects mineral lands, and earnestly requests that the said law be amended, forever withdrawing from the operation of this law public lands designated as mineral lands or containing minerals.

Would you care to have any explanation of any of the features of that?

Senator ASHURST. It seems very clear.

Senator CAMERON. I think it is clear enough.

Mr. CARPENTER. I will say that the members of the chamber of mines, who are in touch, of course, with the operations of the cattle industry and other industries around here, felt that it was no hardship whatever on the cattle-growing industry; that the mining men never fenced their ground-it is open, and the cattle are free to roam over the surface and get whatever forage they can. Furthermore, the very fact that mining shafts have been sunk in various places has proved a decided benefit to the cattle industry, and we believe that there are to-day thousands of cattle in southern Arizona that are alive, due to the fact that there has been water in the shafts that have been sunk for mines, and which is now being pumped and used. Personally I know of a number of places where there are pumps on mining shafts, that are given free to the cattlemen. Now, we never have had any trouble with the cattlemen at all, and certainly don't want to create any trouble, but it seems that inasmuch as the potential value of the land for mineral purposes is so much greater than for any other purpose, that the claimants to mineral rights ought to have the first call on any land that contains minerals, or which has any possibility of containing valuable ore deposits, and we feel rather than that the stockman should put a homestead which I believe they have agreed is worthless to themput a homestead over a piece of mining ground and fence it in and force the miner to go in, that the miner should be able to take a small portion of that and secure title to it and own it. And as he doesn't fence it, it will not interfere in any way whatsoever with cattle crossing over on to other portions of the land.

The second resolution that was passed is one for a present emergency. We all realize that the present mining law is inadequate, and does not cover condition that exist to-day. That law was framed and

passed at a time when all mineral deposits were presumed to be of a tabular form, outcropping on the surface, with their minerals occurring along on the outcrop. That may stand vertical, or may dip, and the theory of the law was that when a discovery was made at any spot, the discoverer was entitled to 1,500 feet in length on that vein and 300 feet in width, on each side, and permitted to follow that in any direction that it should dip.

His end lines, of course, were fixed, but that had reference to the dip. He could follow it on its dip, whichever way it goes. I think that deposits can be grouped into two types that are not at all conformable to that kind of a location. We have our contact deposits which may be very irregular in shape and ore bodies occurring in very irregular places, and no line. And in cases of that kind, and in cases of our disseminated deposits, where it occurs like a blanket many times underneath the surface, all the way from a few feet to several hundred feet, we have a condition to which the present law is absolutely inapplicable.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Carpenter, isn't it true that all our copper mines are deposits rather than lode?

Mr. CARPENTER. Practically speaking, that is true. We have a few veins that produce copper, but compared with the volume of copper that is turned out, they are of no importance whatever-just a very few. Our most important copper producers several of them-it is very doubtful if a person could make a legal location on the ground, unless he had a great deal of money to spend in exploration work. Senator CAMERON. Isn't it a fact that it is almost impossible to make a location under the present ruling of the Department of the Interior?

Mr. CARPENTER. It is almost impossible to do that.

Senator ASHURST. Before you begin to read, I just want to clear up the matter again. I understand your statement-assume that is a

lode.

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. It apexes along here some place.

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. Now, the locator may follow his vein on his side lines, but not on his end lines?

Mr. CARPENTER. Not the end lines.

Senator ASHURST. That is your statement?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. That is the law?

Mr. CARPENTER. The law. Then the resolution that we now present contemplates the securing of quick action, as quick action as possible, from the department in charge of mines, and the resolution reads:

Whereas the present mining law is inadequate and does not specifically provide for conditions which now arise in the location and development of mining claims; and

Whereas the location and patenting of mining claims is now controlled largely by rules and regulations emanating from the Department of the Interior and the General Land Office; and

Whereas the said rules, regulations, and decisions are often arbitrary, inconsistent, and tend to discourage the granting of patents to mineral ground; and

Whereas much mineral land is contained in the national forests and the rules and regulations of the forestry department tend to limit and curtail free prospecting, mine development, and the acquisition of title to mineral land thereon; and

Whereas contests filed by officials of the Government and backed by the resources of the United States often result in injustice to the claimant to mineral land, who is unable to bear the expense; and

Whereas mineral land has the highest classification as to price of any public land, and the cost of securing patent of mineral land is not less than $40 per acre: Be it therefore

Resolved, That the Chamber of Mines of Tucson, Ariz., on behalf of its membership, does protest against the attitude of curtailment of the rights of citizens to prospect for minerals and obtain titles for mineral land and earnestly requests that the Committee on Public Lands in the United States Congress demand of appropriate officials more liberal rules and regulations toward applicants for mineral land: Be it further

Resolved, That the policy of the administrators of public lands should be to aid and encourage the granting of patents to mineral land where a showing of ore has been made, together with a reasonable amount of surrounding ground, even though valuable mineral be not shown on every individual claim.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Carpenter, I would like to ask you

Mr. CARPENTER. Then we discussed the question of a mining law and decided that it would be taking too much on ourselves to recommend the drafting of a law, but we did want to go on record as recognizing that we need a new mining law.

Senator ASHURST. You are speaking of metalliferous mines now; of the base metals. You are speaking of the metals, not coal? Mr. CARPENTER. Yes; not of coal.

Senator CAMERON. At least, you need some modification of the present law?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes; we need some modifications of the present law, and this resolution reads:

RESOLUTION

Whereas the mining laws of the United States are based on conditions existing over 50 years ago; and

Whereas the present conditions are so changed that this law is inapplicable and is administered largely by rules and regulations of governmental departments; and

Whereas the said rules and regulations are in many cases unfavorable to the best interests of prospectors and miners, making the tenure of mineral land uncertain and the securing of title of mineral ground extremely hazardous: Be it therefore

Resolved, That the Chamber of Mines of Tucson, on behalf of its membership, does earnestly request the Congress of the United States to investigate the mining industry and to pass laws that will promote safety in mining titles and encourage the development of this industry; and be it further

Resolved, That the Chamber of Mines of Tucson recommend that the new law make provision to classify mining claims according to the type of ore deposit. That the apex law be limited to true vein deposits. That contact deposits, blanket deposits, and disseminated deposits be located according to legal subdivision with vertical lines. That claimants to mining claims be given the option of performing annual assessment work or paying a tax of about $25 per claim. That a single showing of mineral in commercial quantities be ample to secure patent for a reasonable amount of adjoining mineral ground. That the law be framed to encourage bona fide prospectors and miners to develop mineral ground and secure patent thereto.

The chamber of mines takes the position that inasmuch as Government land is the highest classification and that it costs so much. money per acre to secure title to it, there is no probability that more land will be taken up by any bona fide mining man than he has a right to expect to develop mineral on or use in connection with

his mining claims. So even though there be no mineral, though a man has one claim on which there is developed commercial mineral, even though he can not prove the existence of mineral for one reason or another on the claims adjoining it, by reason of the fact that the man is willing to pay the highest price and desires to have the ground he should be entitled to purchase that ground as mineral ground and own it. The mining men don't take the ground away; they always leave it there. As soon as they get title to it they have to begin to pay taxes, and we have conditions which make it very difficult to take up a claim and complete its development in one single operation. Very many of our mining claims contain mineral of a low grade, and when the price of a metal is low there is absolutely no use in working on the property, because you either lose money or just break even in operating the mine. So if a person finding a deposit, a showing of mineral, and opening it up to the extent that he can prove commercial ore, and doing enough work on his one claim to secure patent for, say, 10 claims, he should be permitted to purchase the ground of 10 claims and then carry out the development in the manner that he sees fit.

We have occasions here when for 4, 6, or even 10 years the price of metals is so low that there is no use in developing the claims. Under the present law he is unable to get a patent, and the only other thing to do is to continue his assessment work. Well, very often the case is that he is not going to do enough work, so that he can do it advantageously at all, and the actual result is that a man has to go out on his ground and throw away, practically speaking, $100 a claim for all of the ground that he wants to hold. Now, if he were able to secure a patent on his group of claims, then whenever conditions were right he would be able to save his initial investment. He has probably made an investment of many thousands of dollars.

Senator CAMERON. Under the present mining law as it is now administered by the Department of the Interior, through the General Land Office, is it not almost impossible for a man to get a patent unless he can definitely show an apex, or ore outcropping on the claim?

Mr. CARPENTER. It is very difficult. The rulings and the procedure of the Land Office are, as mentioned in a resolution here, not consistent.

Senator CAMERON. I am aware of that fact. I have had some experience.

Mr. CARPENTER. It is impossible to predict in advance what the action of the Land Office will be with regard to a patent.

Senator CAMERON. Hasn't the ruling of the department brought about this condition? It has driven nearly every prospector out of our State, as well as all other mining States, and our prospectors have either gone into Mexico or Australia or South America, or some other country, to look for mines, and our mining industry is practically at a standstill.

Mr. CARPENTER. That is correct to a great extent. It hasn't stopped everyone.

Senator CAMERON. No; I understand that.

Mr. CARPENTER. A few of the very brave ones are still hanging on. Senator CAMERON. A few of the hopeful.